German Rail in decline ?

[davidknibb]

An interesting report in today's Guardian about the state of German railways. A depressing decline perhaps of what was until recently a system to aspire to ?

Firefighters rescue passengers from stricken train in latest Deutsche Bahn mishap

German national rail service blames malfunctioning and delays on lack of investment and staff shortages

www.theguardian.com

David

 

[Bletchleyite]

DB are certainly having bad times - but it doesn't seem entirely clear why it is so bad - can anyone elaborate on that? The punctuality issues they seem to be experiencing make anything we are (strikes aside) look very minor.

 

[87015]

DB are certainly having bad times - but it doesn't seem entirely clear why it is so bad - can anyone elaborate on that? The punctuality issues they seem to be experiencing make anything we are (strikes aside) look very minor.

Wrecked by balkanisation and privatisation. Old DB is long gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wrecked by balkanisation and privatisation. Old DB is long gone.

DB is not privatised by UK standards. It operates in a situation very similar to LNER, Northern, TPE etc, albeit with the infrastructure vested in a subsidiary of the same company (but the need to treat it separately by EU rules, e.g. in the way Openreach operates as part of BT Group). The Germans sometimes refer to it as privatised, but that's more in the sense of it having been spun out of the civil service into a share capital company (Aktiengesellschaft, basically a limited company in UK terms) but with all shares owned by the state.

There has been actual privatisation on a regional level with tendering of routes and groups of routes more like the way UK nonremunerative bus routes operate, but I don't think this really has had much impact on the woes of the iC/ICE network.

 

[RT4038]

There has been actual privatisation on a regional level with tendering of routes and groups of routes more like the way UK nonremunerative bus routes operate, but I don't think this really has had much impact on the woes of the iC/ICE network.

Not directly, but the Lander have often stated how pleased they have been at how prices have reduced by competitive tendering. So where have these reductions come from? Some from a certain amount of (previously invisible) cross subsidisation between Lander funded operations and others I shouldn't wonder.

DB are certainly having bad times - but it doesn't seem entirely clear why it is so bad - can anyone elaborate on that?

Under investment and cost cutting of the last 30 years now biting them, partly through funds being diverted to maintain/upgrade Eastern infrastructure and partly through trying to convince themselves that they can run the current network size and fare structure with the money available? Ouch!

 

[williamn]

Dissatisfaction in Germany with DB is nothing new. The UK public is fed a constant diet of 'railways on the continent are so much better than ours' stories and much of the time it just isn't true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dissatisfaction in Germany with DB is nothing new. The UK public is fed a constant diet of 'railways on the continent are so much better than ours' stories and much of the time it just isn't true.

From first hand experience late-90s DB was definitely way better than late-90s UK railways, but we've spent a lot since then that they haven't really. Watch Victoria Wood's "Crewe to Crewe" to see just how much of a transformation we've experienced in recent years - it's on the iPlayer at the moment. Whereas with a few exceptions (e.g. Berlin Hbf and some high speed expansion) DB just feels the same as it did back then but less punctual.

I think it is fair to say that there are still European railways better in various ways than ours, e.g. OeBB and SBB, but I'd not put DB there at the moment.

 

[zwk500]

Part of it is industrial relations and the recovery post-covid. Part of it is the general western European malaise of underinvestment amid slowing economies. I wonder if part of it is also the disruptive effect of having to split out to DB-Netz and an operating arm to facilitate Open-Access, which Flix Train have been quite aggressive on in some regions
Part of it may also be the issues they've had in trying to integrate 2 formerly separate networks together while also managing a much freer international arena.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flix Train have been quite aggressive on in some regions

I'd not say they really have, they run single train pairs on most of their routes, and will have an impact on DB no greater - probably lesser - than the effect something like Lumo or Hull has on LNER.

Part of it may also be the issues they've had in trying to integrate 2 formerly separate networks together while also managing a much freer international arena.

Certainly Germany's economy as a whole has been challenged by the integration of the East (this was much more visible in the 90s than now of course), and many people did and still do think that rather than reintegrate it should have remained a separate (but democratic Western, EU member) country, perhaps a bit more like how Germany relates to Poland or Czechia today.

 

[zwk500]

I'd not say they really have, they run single train pairs on most of their routes, and will have an impact on DB no greater - probably lesser - than the effect something like Lumo or Hull has on LNER.

The presence of an OAO operator is though fairly new, whereas in the UK Lumo and Hull slotted into the existing system quite neatly. Although I agree Flix will be fairly minimal impact.

Certainly Germany's economy as a whole has been challenged by the integration of the East (this was much more visible in the 90s than now of course), and many people did and still do think that rather than reintegrate it should have remained a separate (but democratic Western, EU member) country, perhaps a bit more like how Germany relates to Poland or Czechia today.

What should have been done is a different question, although issues of national identity can often, as the UK has seen, prioritise non-economic factors over economic ones.

But see also SNCF - outside of the TGVs french politicians are heavily criticising the service on regional lines. NS in the Netherlands is also dragging behind with major projects (and being criticised for investment decisions like the Betewuroute). SNCB in Belgium has only built tiny stretches of HSL, has industrial relations issues and is straining to maintain services with engineering works on a regular basis. The gulf between comparable networks and the UK is not as wide as some would like to think. You have to be very careful (or selective, depending on your intent) with how you analyse the respective networks.

 

[Trainbike46]

Two things that play a role, as I understand it:
- Maintenance backlog making the infrastructure less reliable
- A political situation that causes massive delays in projects

An example of the second issue is the Friesenbrucke in Northeastern germany. In 2015, this bridge was rammed by a ship, causing severe damage to the foundations of the bridge. The bridge was to be rebuild from scratch, as it was considered non-repairable. The new bridge was due to open in 2025, so 10 years after the service stopped because of the missing bridge. It should not take 10 years to reinstate a service because of an incident like that.

 

[dutchflyer]

Also gerade jetzt=so, right now I sit in a local DB-train, decked out as B-W with lions (Baden Wúrttemberg), using my new since this month 49€/Deutschland ticket-which is on a chipcard that buses around here are not able to read. This RB 27 is only 5 mins late. The WiFi works pretty well, but is not DB-sponsored but apparently by the ´Land´=province. I booked a stay in a Premier hotel for tonight.
Came here overnight on the Holland-Swiss ´Express´-fare just 17,90 (advance saver), of which 25% will be returned as it started +35 and arrived this morning in Freiburg/Black Forest +65. There was no ticketcheck in those +6 hrs.-in the middle of the night.
The major complaints are the eternal delays and quite often cancelled trains due to staff shortages. THere are various theories and ideas on why this has become so bad. None will explain it all. My own tiny share: DB was for a very large part the super-tipical german state-owned ´Beamten´=civil servants bahn and has great trouble to adapt to modern times and competition. Which to various degrees holds for many german institutions and companies.
Besides that german society is very often very reluctant to such changes- just f.e. that insistance on always being still able to pay in cash (bares geld). As a minor move the minister who initiated this cheap monthly wanted it not as paper but only online-on the fone or on a chipcard. Which thus led to it not being able to read in many cases out of the area where it was issued. Dont worry: you will just be waived on.

 

[The exile]

Not just a railway issue, but in Western Germany there is a massive amount of infrastructure dating from the 1950s -1970s (postwar rebuilding and Wirtschaftswunder) that has all reached the point at which lots of money needs spending on it at once.

 

[RT4038]

Part of it is industrial relations and the recovery post-covid. Part of it is the general western European malaise of underinvestment amid slowing economies. I wonder if part of it is also the disruptive effect of having to split out to DB-Netz and an operating arm to facilitate Open-Access, which Flix Train have been quite aggressive on in some regions
Part of it may also be the issues they've had in trying to integrate 2 formerly separate networks together while also managing a much freer international arena.

DB Fernverkehr punctuality was pretty poor for quite some years before Covid. I travelled in Europe on business extensively 2011-4 and these trains were, frankly, unpunctual then ('c. 15min spaeter'). This deterioration is no new phenomenon. In the 1980s it appeared to be much better [but then I wasn't travelling on business then....]

Dissatisfaction in Germany with DB is nothing new. The UK public is fed a constant diet of 'railways on the continent are so much better than ours' stories and much of the time it just isn't true.

So often it is people comparing their holiday travels on the continent with the daily bread of commuting here. Need to compare apples with apples of course. That is not to say the UK railway does not have issues, obviously, and we get frustrated with the minutiae of ours, their annoying minutiae probably gets overlooked in the holiday mood whilst on the continent.

 

[zwk500]

their annoying minutiae probably gets overlooked in the holiday mood whilst on the continent.

Also, of course, 2 weeks a year vs 48 weeks a year is hardly a reasonable sample size.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DB Fernverkehr punctuality was pretty poor for quite some years before Covid. I travelled in Europe on business extensively 2011-4 and these trains were, frankly, unpunctual then ('c. 15min spaeter'). This deterioration is no new phenomenon. In the 1980s it appeared to be much better [but then I wasn't travelling on business then....]

One thing you always did get in Germany was that because connections are generally held the whole network picks up delays, and can be, on a bad day, running 15 minutes to half an hour late by the early evening. This is quite noticeable as the UK doesn't let it happen because we mostly just let the connections miss, but in a system that typically operates lower frequencies than the UK (regional services are typically hourly or 2-hourly for instance) it is a better approach in terms of getting people where they're going.

 

[Struner]

Two things that play a role, as I understand it:
- Maintenance backlog making the infrastructure less reliable
- A political situation that causes massive delays in projects

An example of the second issue is the Friesenbrucke in Northeastern germany. In 2015, this bridge was rammed by a ship, causing severe damage to the foundations of the bridge. The bridge was to be rebuild from scratch, as it was considered non-repairable. The new bridge was due to open in 2025, so 10 years after the service stopped because of the missing bridge. It should not take 10 years to reinstate a service because of an incident like that.

The Friesenbrücke is in Northwestern Germany, not Northestern.
It was the design of the new bridge & the planning procedures that took so much time.
But they have started construction and yes, they say it will be finished by dec 2024 - at a cost of €200m.
It will be a swingbridge, quite different from the last one.
A simulation on youtube:

 

[The exile]

their annoying minutiae probably gets overlooked in the holiday mood whilst on the continent.

Yes - as you enjoy your working air conditioning in double deck Berne gauge stock (all plus points) you overlook the fact that on a main line in prime commuter belt the next one’s not for an hour (barring the intercity, for which your ticket is of course not valid). Meanwhile, on my daily UK commute on a comparable line, I get frustrated by a fifteen minute gap in the service!

 

[Trainbike46]

The Friesenbrücke is in Northwestern Germany, not Northestern.
It was the design of the new bridge & the planning procedures that took so much time.
But they have started construction and yes, they say it will be finished by dec 2024 - at a cost of €200m.
It will be a swingbridge, quite different from the last one.
A simulation on youtube:

Sorry, I was thinking too much like a dutcho there!

 

[riceuten]

DB has been in decline for considerably longer than the Guardian article implies, and I always chuckle when someone aspires to the DB system in the UK, often based on a decades-old experience in the company's heydays. Mechanical failure - of trains or signalling - seems mainly to blame - for private contractors, a shortage of staff. Often the trains are too small for the line concerned.

Devolution of rail funding - like in France - to Land authorities has been a real mixed bag. A few laender have accepted low tender prices and have either not been able to recruit staff at the lower wages offered (hello vlexx), or the contractor has given up the contract (hello Abellio) when they realised there was no money to be made.

 

[eastwestdivide]

One thing you always did get in Germany was that because connections are generally held the whole network picks up delays, and can be, on a bad day, running 15 minutes to half an hour late by the early evening...

I'd noticed that too, travelling in Germany on hols from ~2012 until Covid, jokingly referring to GIST - German Intercity Standard Time, which differs from Central European Time by a gradually increasing number of minutes as the day progresses. And I think you're right that it's the web-like network, and the many held connections, that propagates those delays,. Unlike the UK, where the intercity network is mostly "hub and spoke" (except XC) with little 'cross-contamination'.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"lack of investment" seems something of a joke in UK terms with all the new and upgraded lines in Germany (some of them because of unification).
German railways always seem much more efficient that ours, in terms of a carefully constructed timetable with modern, standardised trains of higher quality than here, and with a more appealing fares structure.
Technology seems well ahead of the UK in terms of electrification, line speeds, track quality, layout provision etc.
The state spend overall is much more than here, spent from both federal and regional budgets, and has been baked in for decades.
There are several mega-projects in progress including Stuttgart and the Fehmarn link to Denmark, and the Upper Rhine upgrade.
It doesn't seem to me to be a railway in crisis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

German railways always seem much more efficient that ours, in terms of a carefully constructed timetable with modern, standardised trains of higher quality than here, and with a more appealing fares structure.

More appealing if you want to travel during the super-expensive morning peak into London on an IC train, I guess, or the Deutschlandticket for regional trains*, but otherwise the fare structure is very similar to ours, with one key exception - no off peak walk up fares, and the Flexpreis is probably at about the level of the old LNER/current GWR Off Peak, i.e. Business Saver, so quite expensive. As such most people travel on Sparpreis (Advance) type tickets, though the upside is that the middle tier of these is refundable and the Bahncard is of course a nice thing.

Horses for courses I'd say.

* Give or take the difficulty defining a "regional train" in the UK, this might be a better idea than 2 quid bus fares, nice though those are. I wonder how the costs compare? New thread I think.

 

[zwk500]

Technology seems well ahead of the UK in terms of electrification, line speeds, track quality, layout provision etc.

Interesting view on the far older and less efficient electrification system (15KV 16.66hz OLE) and much more complicated layouts (with a fondness for double slips).

There are several mega-projects in progress including Stuttgart and the Fehmarn link to Denmark, and the Upper Rhine upgrade.
It doesn't seem to me to be a railway in crisis.

Stuttgart 21 is something of a joke among my German friends (one of whom is from Stuttgart, none of them are at all interested in trains so it's interesting it has a mainstream consciousness), on a par with the Berlin-Brandenburg Airport which was a national embarrassment.

Crisis would be the wrong description, but it's certainly not all spick and span.

 

[yorksrob]

More appealing if you want to travel during the super-expensive morning peak into London on an IC train, I guess, or the Deutschlandticket for regional trains*, but otherwise the fare structure is very similar to ours, with one key exception - no off peak walk up fares, and the Flexpreis is probably at about the level of the old LNER/current GWR Off Peak, i.e. Business Saver, so quite expensive. As such most people travel on Sparpreis (Advance) type tickets, though the upside is that the middle tier of these is refundable and the Bahncard is of course a nice thing.

Horses for courses I'd say.

* Give or take the difficulty defining a "regional train" in the UK, this might be a better idea than 2 quid bus fares, nice though those are. I wonder how the costs compare? New thread I think.

The Bahncard is a fairly pivotal thing, all else being equal.

 

[jeremyjh]

DB is not privatised by UK standards. It operates in a situation very similar to LNER, Northern, TPE etc, albeit with the infrastructure vested in a subsidiary of the same company (but the need to treat it separately by EU rules, e.g. in the way Openreach operates as part of BT Group). The Germans sometimes refer to it as privatised, but that's more in the sense of it having been spun out of the civil service into a share capital company (Aktiengesellschaft, basically a limited company in UK terms) but with all shares owned by the state.

There has been actual privatisation on a regional level with tendering of routes and groups of routes more like the way UK nonremunerative bus routes operate, but I don't think this really has had much impact on the woes of the iC/ICE network.

This is true, but also a partial picture. Passenger operations are much more fragmented than the infrastructure. A lot of suburban and especially middle-distance services are tendered to other operators, and even DB Fernverkehr is beginning to see increased route competition. It's not franchising, more like a concession arrangement, but it still fragments things.

 

[rvdborgt]

"lack of investment" seems something of a joke in UK terms with all the new and upgraded lines in Germany (some of them because of unification).
[...]
The state spend overall is much more than here, spent from both federal and regional budgets, and has been baked in for decades.
There are several mega-projects in progress including Stuttgart and the Fehmarn link to Denmark, and the Upper Rhine upgrade.
It doesn't seem to me to be a railway in crisis.

Until you look at the rail investment per capita. Germany has one of the lowest figures in Europe. The average age of infrastructure is increasing each year, and has been increasing for many years.

 

[davidknibb]

There are several mega-projects in progress including Stuttgart and the Fehmarn link to Denmark.

Isn't the Stuttgart project a bit like HS2 here. A highly ambitious project where costs have escalated significantly and it's years behind schedule and there's continuing significant disruption

 

[zwk500]

There are several mega-projects in progress including Stuttgart and the Fehmarn link to Denmark.

Isn't the Stuttgart project a bit like HS2 here. A highly ambitious project where costs have escalated significantly and it's years behind schedule and there's continuing significant disruption

Slightly different in scale, but yes it's about 6 years late and twice the costs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21

 

[johncrossley]

During the euro crisis it was occasionally mentioned by commentators that German obsession with austerity was causing significant harm to infrastructure. Not just rail, but also road maintenance and investment were also being neglected.