German Rail in decline ?

[dutchflyer]

Right now I sit in a pretty slow and short DB-RB in Westfalen, on my 49€/mo D-Ticket, holding that since 1/6 as chipcard and using it for short trips of a few days-about 3-4 per month. Major aim for me is more the trams and buses networks. Out of the Land NRW where it is issued buses etc cannot even check if it is valid or not. DB guards and some others now hold new pretty small check-devices able for all from the country.
THere has not been 1 single day in all till now where all trains used were all on time. But what also surprises me more and more is how long it often seems there has to be between 2 trains-till infuriating when a delayed ICE holds up the train one is sitting in to bypass. This compared to what I am used to in home-country Nederland.
Plus that unannounced-except locally- diversions/bus replacement etc. also often makes one forced to double check local/Verbund sites.
But its not just trains: was in FRAnkfurt the last days and the nr of cancelled tramtrips is also quite high. Ads to attract those willing to work in transport are also everywhere.

 

[paul_munich]

But what also surprises me more and more is how long it often seems there has to be between 2 trains-till infuriating when a delayed ICE holds up the train one is sitting in to bypass.

this would improve things a lot if we would just "isolate", as it is called in Switzerland, delayed trains.
Current procedure is that on-time RB/RE trains have to wait for delayed IC/ICEs.
So the RE gets +5 because it has to give way to an ICE with +20, but it is then getting in way of the next train and everything is messed up...

 

[RT4038]

this would improve things a lot if we would just "isolate", as it is called in Switzerland, delayed trains.
Current procedure is that on-time RB/RE trains have to wait for delayed IC/ICEs.
So the RE gets +5 because it has to give way to an ICE with +20, but it is then getting in way of the next train and everything is messed up...

In the UK this is called ' not waiting for connections' and attracts just as much criticism as the late running of main line trains. Be careful what you wish for!

 

[The exile]

In the UK this is called ' not waiting for connections' and attracts just as much criticism as the late running of main line trains. Be careful what you wish for!

Not really - it’s more a case of holding back a stopper that would otherwise be on time rather than putting it out in front of a delayed IC which then has to potter along behind it - getting later and later as it does so. The side effects may well be the maintenance of a connection, of course. We have fewer cases where stoppers are looped en route to allow fast trains to pass, though of course it can still happen at point of origin.

 

[paul_munich]

If the EC Munich-Zurich arrives with more than 2 minutes delay at the Swiss border station of St. Margreten it is getting "isolated" and has to follow the S-Bahn with +30' as an end result, that's the other extrem...

 

[RT4038]

Not really - it’s more a case of holding back a stopper that would otherwise be on time rather than putting it out in front of a delayed IC which then has to potter along behind it - getting later and later as it does so. The side effects may well be the maintenance of a connection, of course. We have fewer cases where stoppers are looped en route to allow fast trains to pass, though of course it can still happen at point of origin.

'Isolating' doesn't mean holding back a stopper, it means sending the stopper or branch line or any other other connection right time, i.e. breaking the connection, and not worrying about subsequent cumulation of delays on the isolated train. Pretty much what is done in the UK.

Of course, if it is done in Germany or Switzerland it is the right thing to do - if done in the UK it is just another example of our broken railway!

 

[paul_munich]

Isolating means holding back whatever it is, if it is delayed...

 

[Richard Scott]

this would improve things a lot if we would just "isolate", as it is called in Switzerland, delayed trains.
Current procedure is that on-time RB/RE trains have to wait for delayed IC/ICEs.
So the RE gets +5 because it has to give way to an ICE with +20, but it is then getting in way of the next train and everything is messed up...

They did this to a late running ICE on Monday (let an all shacks S-Bahn out in front of it) so was delayed even more. Big issue was the Brussels train was cancelled from Frankfurt to Cologne and starting at Cologne. The delayed ICE was carrying passengers for this but only stopping at Messe/Deutz and not Hbf meaning passengers had to change at both MD and Hbf. Issue was the easy connection at MD became a 3 minute connection, possibly ok if you know the station and don't have luggage, not true of most passengers, I suspect. Even DB staff doing their nut over that decision (I know that's what happened as listening to their conversation). So sometimes best decision may be to hold up the local train, other times not. It's not always clear cut.
If I'm on the late running IC I want regional to wait, if I'm on the regional I want the IC to wait!!! Selfish, I know.

It is!
90,4% of all services reached its destination with a delay of 5'59'' or less in July, sadly the long distance services are affected by the huge engineering projects I mentioned, to there level was only 64,1%.DB page in German

Ok, thank you. Even regional services in turmoil yesterday around Duesseldorf but may be knock on effect from closure of line to Cologne?

But see also SNCF - outside of the TGVs french politicians are heavily criticising the service on regional lines. NS in the Netherlands is also dragging behind with major projects (and being criticised for investment decisions like the Betewuroute). SNCB in Belgium has only built tiny stretches of HSL, has industrial relations issues and is straining to maintain services with engineering works on a regular basis. The gulf between comparable networks and the UK is not as wide as some would like to think. You have to be very careful (or selective, depending on your intent) with how you analyse the respective networks.

I think difference in UK and Continent is that the Victorians built many of our mane lines, and often many secondary lines, very well allowing us high top speeds (lots of 125mph running in UK) which isn't true of some on the Continent so High Speed Lines are a must there whereas we've dragged our feet relying on our 125mph network until market forces etc have dictated that a new high speed line is now essential.

 

[The exile]

'Isolating' doesn't mean holding back a stopper, it means sending the stopper or branch line or any other other connection right time, i.e. breaking the connection, and not worrying about subsequent cumulation of delays on the isolated train. Pretty much what is done in the UK.

Of course, if it is done in Germany or Switzerland it is the right thing to do - if done in the UK it is just another example of our broken railway!

Yes - apologies - I missed out a “not”!

 

[gordonthemoron]

You wonder if the general summer crowding and high usage along with heat is contributing to the issues.

The overcrowding is probably due to the Deutschland €49 ticket, which fortunately doesn’t affect IC/EC/ICE services

 

[duesselmartin]

often it seems to organisational. Trains not running in the correct order, sudden platform changes, construction delays are not within the revised timetable, numerous failures on trains (not working dining car seems to be the norm), lack of staff is also a big issue. Staff levels have been reduced to a minimum is recent years so that now the system is over strechted. Also timetables often do not have the scope to catch up lost time.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

I would always allow a couple of hours leeway if the connection is time-critical, but given that trains to Milan are frequent and only take 3hr, I would just be cautious about booking a matinee at the opera

I imagine that if the Gotthard Base Tunnel is still closed to passenger traffic by then it will take a bit longer over the alternative route.

 

[30907]

I imagine that if the Gotthard Base Tunnel is still closed to passenger traffic by then it will take a bit longer over the alternative route.

Another hour - and ironically the IC plus RE combination changing at Lugano is a couple of minutes faster (new timetable on the SBB site but not yet on DB).

 

[dm1]

If the EC Munich-Zurich arrives with more than 2 minutes delay at the Swiss border station of St. Margreten it is getting "isolated" and has to follow the S-Bahn with +30' as an end result, that's the other extrem...

Another thing the Swiss control staff/signallers do really well, which the Germans as far as I know do not (no idea about the UK) is having specific playbooks for different situations already pre-planned, so if some kind of disruption occurs, there is already a ready-made plan in which all the conflicts are taken into account and minimises overall disruption - including which connections to hold and which not to.

For example, the plan for the Munich-Zurich EC was updated based on past experience relatively recently (as posted on the swiss rail forum), and shows which path the train should take, based on its delay upon entering the Swiss railway network in St. Margrethen, and its resulting arrival delay in Zurich.

St. Margrethen	Path	Zürich HB
up to +5', max +6'	Scheduled path	on time, Löwenstrasse*, Reverse in Wollishofen
+5' to +9', max +10'	from St. Margrethen behind IR13, in St. Gallen overtake IR13, in Eschlikon overtake S35, from Grüze behind S11, from Winterthur behind S8 (applied since 23. June 2023, previously behind IR13 until Zurich HB resulting in +25')	about +10', Löwenstrasse*, Reverse in Wollishofen
9' to 12', max +13'	from St. Margrethen behind IR13	about +25', Löwenstrasse*, Reverse in Wiedikon
12' until approx 30'	from St. Margrethen behind S2, in St. Gallen if possible same-platform connection with IC5, from St. Gallen behind IC5	about +35', surface platforms, reverse there
from +30' to about +42'	from St. Margrethen behind S5, from St. Gallen behind IC1	about +55', Löwenstrasse*, stepping back** to return working
from +42'	from St. Margrethen behind S4, from St. Gallen run on scheduled path an hour later, potentially behind peak-only IC5, and reach Zürich about +65' or terminate short in Winterthur	about +60', Löwenstrasse*, stepping back** to return working

* Löwenstrasse refers to the through-running underground platforms 31-34 in Zürich HB. The EC is scheduled to start/terminate in these platforms in order to provide a quick cross-platform connection to the IC1 to/from Bern and Geneva. However, it cannot wait for its return working there without blocking through-running S-Bahn services in between, so runs out of service to some sidings in Zürich Wollishofen (on the left bank of Lake Zurich) to wait there. Zurich Wiedikon is two stops short of Wollishofen. The German word for this maneuver is called a "Fluchtfahrt" which literally translates as an "escape trip"
** Yes, SBB use stepping back on mainline rail services, including the flagship IC1 line in Geneva Airport. There would be no way of reversing a 400m (or in the case of the EC 200m) train fast enough otherwise, especially for through services via single-ended platforms.

Having plans like that for every service and possible route blockage makes the control staff's actions much more predictable and less likely to cause unnecessary conflicts with other services. It also allows much cleverer solutions to be used.

For example in the case for 12-30 minutes delay, the EC takes an entirely different route between Zurich Oerlikon and Zurich HB via Zurich Wipkingen in order to end up in the surface platforms (which have no rail connection to Löwenstrasse from the Oerlikon side). The same-platform connection in St. Gallen allows the onward connections in Zurich from the pulse 30 minutes later than scheduled to still be made, despite the EC being 35 mins late in the end, reducing the delay for those passengers from 60 minutes to 30.

Naturally they can't cover absolutely every scenario, but they make making quick decisions much easier and appear to lead to better results. Given how often the EC reaches St. Margrethen late (more often than not), this is probably one of the few plans in which every scenario has been applied in practice more than once...

 

[DanielB]

Another thing the Swiss control staff/signallers do really well, which the Germans as far as I know do not (no idea about the UK) is having specific playbooks for different situations already pre-planned, so if some kind of disruption occurs, there is already a ready-made plan in which all the conflicts are taken into account and minimises overall disruption - including which connections to hold and which not to.

That's not unique to Switzerland by the way. Also the Dutch signallers have fixed scenarios for handling disruptions and delays. And also for which connections to hold and which not.
Recently even heard about a situation where the operator (Qbuzz) of a regional line without overlap with the main network was not amused when the signaller (ProRail) started to order partial cancellations of trains to get rid of delays, where the operator preferred getting passengers to their destination instead of dropping them off on a narrow platform in the middle of nowhere.

Think this scenario thinking is something in countries having a "takt", which Switzerland and the Netherlands have but Germany doesn't have in its "Fernverkehr" at least.

 

[AidanCKY]

I had my first experience of DB and German railways in general last year. Was very excited to go on the ICE train from Frankfurt to Cologne.

5 minutes before it was due in, it got cancelled. Went to the ticket office and it got reassigned to the next train. Which got cancelled.
Went to the ticket office again, and they changed it to a train via Frankfurt Airport. Which ended up requiring a U-bahn ride to the Airport, which was extremely delayed and I wouldnt be able to make it in time, zero chance.

Back to the ticket office again and finally booked onto a train that actually turned up. But my and my partner were booked on seats that weren't together.

It wasnt a great experience, the train ride itself was fun but the stress beforehand wasn't great

 

[Bletchleyite]

The overcrowding is probably due to the Deutschland €49 ticket, which fortunately doesn’t affect IC/EC/ICE services

It's not new. The cheap Laender Tickets and the Quer Durchs Land Ticket did it too, and the old Wochenendticket. Been going on since the 90s or earlier.

Think this scenario thinking is something in countries having a "takt", which Switzerland and the Netherlands have but Germany doesn't have in its "Fernverkehr" at least.

Germany has a set of separate regional Takten (clockface timetable with planned connections) but is moving towards a national approach. Even so it is still mostly clockface, as the UK is, and e.g. France isn't.

 

[rvdborgt]

Went to the ticket office again, and they changed it to a train via Frankfurt Airport. Which ended up requiring a U-bahn ride to the Airport [...]

S-Bahn? Frankfurt airport doesn't have U-Bahn.

 

[DanielB]

Germany has a set of separate regional Takten (clockface timetable with planned connections) but is moving towards a national approach. Even so it is still mostly clockface, as the UK is, and e.g. France isn't.

I know, that's why I mentioned Fernverkehr and not the regional trains. For a service running only once a day (like Amsterdam - Basel) it obviously doesn't make much sense to have a specific scenario.

Even regionally Germany seems to rely less on the type of clockface timetable as in The Netherlands and Switzerland, with not only fixed departure times but also very short connections.

 

[riceuten]

this would improve things a lot if we would just "isolate", as it is called in Switzerland, delayed trains.
Current procedure is that on-time RB/RE trains have to wait for delayed IC/ICEs.
So the RE gets +5 because it has to give way to an ICE with +20, but it is then getting in way of the next train and everything is messed up...

This already happens to an extent in the UK. I live in Stevenage and when I catch a Thameslink train, by the time we get to the Welwyn viaduct, if there is a delayed LNER/Hull Trains/Lumo/Grand Central train timetabled before us, we will usually sit at or around Knebworth to give it priority, regardless of the fact that we quite often sit much longer than it would have taken to traverse the bridge and then move onto the slow line, and in the case of TLGN fast trains, are hurtling towards London at 100mph in any case.

My experience with DB on delayed trains is varied - I once had the experience when a delayed flight to Luxembourg meant that I meant I missed my booked CFL coach to Saarbruecken. CFL were very multilingually helpful and gave me a free ticket (!) to Trier to try and reconnect with the DB network. Delays on the latter meant that I would have missed the last train from Saarbruecken to my destination around 9.10pm. I pleaded (in German) with the "Schaffner" (conductor) for them to hold the train at Saarbruecken for 10 minutes, which they did. Had I not spoken German, it would have been dubious I would have been able to do this. Other experiences were not so lucky

 

[gordonthemoron]

It's not new. The cheap Laender Tickets and the Quer Durchs Land Ticket did it too, and the old Wochenendticket. Been going on since the 90s or earlier

I've lived in Germany, Laender tickets are/were a problem at weekends, especially the fast service betweem Munich and Nuremburg, but the Deutschland Ticket is something else

 

[FormerBritInMe]

** Yes, SBB use stepping back on mainline rail services,

What is "stepping back" ? I am not familiar with that term.

 

[rvdborgt]

I know, that's why I mentioned Fernverkehr and not the regional trains. For a service running only once a day (like Amsterdam - Basel) it obviously doesn't make much sense to have a specific scenario.

Between Cologne and Basel, that path used every hour, so it's not really 1 train/day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is "stepping back" ? I am not familiar with that term.

I think that means picking up the next path in the timetable, effectively cancelling the original train.
So you keep the timetable, but end up with the stock/crews in the wrong place...
It only works on metro-type systems with relatively high frequencies.

 

[Trainbike46]

What is "stepping back" ? I am not familiar with that term.

It means where a train coming into a station forms a train later than originally intended, so for example:

Normally the 08:50 arrival forms the 09:10 departure. However, when the 08:50 is more than say 15 minutes late, it forms the 09:40 departure instead. If another train is available to form the 09:10 departure it could form that, otherwise the 09:10 is cancelled rather than leaving late. It is relatively common on high-frequency systems, such as metros

I think that means picking up the next path in the timetable, effectively cancelling the original train.
So you keep the timetable, but end up with the stock/crews in the wrong place...
It only works on metro-type systems with relatively high frequencies.

Posting at the same time, sorry!

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Thanks for the explanations!

 

[dm1]

Not quite. The stepping back refers to the drivers, not the trains.

The train arrives at the terminus, as soon as it does, a new driver enters the opposite end of the train (up to 400m away), then once the incoming driver has left the train, drives straight back out again. This allows long trains to be reversed in less time than it would take a driver to walk from one end to the other. In this way, turnarounds can be scheduled in as little as 6-7 minutes and can be as short as 3 min in practice (taking minor delays of the incoming service into account). The trains are specified to have a technical turnaround time (the time it takes to set up TMS etc) of max 1 min to enable this.

The driver who brought the train into the station then has a break, before replacing another driver in one of the next trains in the same way.

 

[Trainbike46]

Not quite. The stepping back refers to the drivers, not the trains.

The train arrives at the terminus, as soon as it does, a new driver enters the opposite end of the train (up to 400m away), then once the incoming driver has left the train, drives straight back out again. This allows long trains to be reversed in less time than it would take a driver to walk from one end to the other. In this way, turnarounds can be scheduled in as little as 6-7 minutes and can be as short as 3 min in practice (taking minor delays of the incoming service into account). The trains are specified to have a technical turnaround time (the time it takes to set up TMS etc) of max 1 min to enable this.

The driver who brought the train into the station then has a break, before replacing another driver in one of the next trains in the same way.

While that is a common and correct definition of stepping back, it is not the one used upthread here, where it is referring to trains with a delay of more than 30 minutes forming a return working 60 minutes later than originally planned

EDIT: I misinterpreted, and the definition given by @dm1 is the one used in this thread

 

[dm1]

While that is a common and correct definition of stepping back, it is not the one used upthread here, where it is referring to trains with a delay of more than 30 minutes forming a return working 60 minutes later than originally planned

Given I wrote the post upthread you are referring to, I know which definition I was using.

The EC services in question are planned with rather generous turnaround times, with a scheduled arrival of xx:27 in Zurich. The next service formed by that train is scheduled to depart at xx:33 an hour later. This is what leads to the stepping back in the case of a 60 min delay

 

[Trainbike46]

Given I wrote the post upthread you are referring to, I know which definition I was using.

The EC services in question are planned with rather generous turnaround times, with a scheduled arrival of xx:27 in Zurich. The next service formed by that train is scheduled to depart at xx:33 an hour later. This is what leads to the stepping back in the case of a 60 min delay

Sorry, my mistake