Getting refunds for tickets

[Eric]

So me and the wife bought two tickets, but two different types from Bradford to Blackpool North with our Two Together Railcard.

We now can’t go on the day we bought the tickets for, but can go a few days later but Northern are refusing to refund or change the date of the tickets. I have no problem with paying the £10 administrative fee and made this known at the ticket office because changing the date and paying £10 is cheaper than buying new tickets.

I have been refused this despite doing this three times previously and despite all tickets bought at same time using the railcard.

I’m very unhappy about this and would like to complain .

How is the best way of complaining?

 

[Starmill]

What type of ticket did you buy? How much did you pay? Where did you buy your tickets?

 

[Gareth Marston]

We need further info to help as Starmill outlined.

A common issue we see is people wanting booking offices to sought out tickets bought from third party internet retailers. However you have to go back to your point of sale for refunds.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could you explain what “two tickets, but two different types” mean exactly?
Was it four tickets altogether perhaps?

 

[Eric]

Sorry, mine was a day return and my wife’s an open return so yes, four tickets altogether.

Tickets bought from Forster Square train station last week.

 

[Eric]

Why is is this in the prosecution thread? I just want a refund or change the date on three of the tickets going forward.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, mine was a day return and my wife’s an open return so yes, four tickets altogether...

Ah, two fares but four coupons.
However I didn’t think you could buy one day return and one open return with a two together, hence the question.

 

[Darandio]

Why is is this in the prosecution thread? I just want a refund or change the date on three of the tickets going forward.

It's in the Disputes & Prosecutions section, You are in a dispute.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Sorry, mine was a day return and my wife’s an open return so yes, four tickets altogether.

Tickets bought from Forster Square train station last week.

Our STAR machine will not sell a Two Togathar ticket unless qty 2 is selected as if I and SWt Pasenger have interpreted your post correctly you should not have been able to purchase what you state you did.

 

[Eric]

Ah, two fares but four coupons.
However I didn’t think you could buy one day return and one open return with a two together, hence the question.

The person serving us put it all through because although I’m going to be coming back with my brother on the day return who has a two together with me but my wife is going to be staying over for the week with friends, until I come pick up her up and meet her at the hotel a week on Wednesday.

For that single second journey from Bradford to Blackpool there is just me on a cheap senior railcard advance.

But on the others there are legitimate two together and tickets combinations.

There’s seven tickets all together but only four need changing.

Why can’t Northern do this? I’m happy to pay the administration fee.

 

[island]

Our STAR machine will not sell a Two Togathar ticket unless qty 2 is selected as if I and SWt Pasenger have interpreted your post correctly you should not have been able to purchase what you state you did.

I agree with this.

 

[Haywain]

Why can’t Northern do this? I’m happy to pay the administration fee.

I suspect their problem is that they are not matching ticket types, which is what should be used with the Two Together Railcard. Therefore the right to a refund is, at the least, questionable and the right to new tickets matching those you already have is extremely doubtful.

 

[yorkie]

Why is is this in the prosecution thread? I just want a refund or change the date on three of the tickets going forward.

This is in a thread titled " Getting refunds for tickets" in the Disputes section of the forum, as it is a dispute. If you wish to discuss the matter further, use the 'Contact Us' form at the bottom of each page.

The person serving us put it all through because although I’m going to be coming back with my brother on the day return who has a two together with me but my wife is going to be staying over for the week with friends, until I come pick up her up and meet her at the hotel a week on Wednesday.

For that single second journey from Bradford to Blackpool there is just me on a cheap senior railcard advance.

But on the others there are legitimate two together and tickets combinations.

There’s seven tickets all together but only four need changing.

Why can’t Northern do this? I’m happy to pay the administration fee.

It sounds like the booking clerk did you a favour however now you have changed your plans it's going to be at best a pain to change it, and at worst impossible.

You can complain to Northern, which will probably result in that person doing things 'by the book' and not doing you a favour in future.

 

[JB_B]

I suspect their problem is that they are not matching ticket types, which is what should be used with the Two Together Railcard. Therefore the right to a refund is, at the least, questionable and the right to new tickets matching those you already have is extremely doubtful.

...
It sounds like the booking clerk did you a favour however now you have changed your plans it's going to be at best a pain to change it, and at worst impossible.

You can complain to Northern, which will probably result in that person doing things 'by the book' and not doing you a favour in future.

I might have got the wrong end of the stick but I'm not sure I agree with the above comments.

There may be validation rules in TISs which enforce same ticket-type for Two Together ticket purchases but I don't think that's what the public-facing railcard terms and conditions actually require.

To me this sounds like it could be an unusual (but legitimate) use of two different Two Together railcards for different journeys. ( And if booking systems struggle with this then it's all the more credit to the whoever issued the original tickets.)


From the FAQ at https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/


Q: Do we need to start and end our journeys together for the Two Together Railcard discount to be valid?

A: Yes, you must travel together throughout your whole journey, for both named cardholders to be eligible for the Two Together Railcard discount.


and also

Q: How many Two Together Railcards can I have?

A: There is no limit on the number of Two Together Railcards you can hold.

The OP is travelling with his wife (on a their valid TTRC) throughout their whole (outward) journey. He returns - travelling throughout with his brother (on their separate valid TTRC).

As ever, it comes down to the definition of 'journey' - something the T&Cs don't provide. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider outward and return to be separate journeys - NCRoT makes this distinction at various points.

 

[Eric]

I might have got the wrong end of the stick but I'm not sure I agree with the above comments.

There may be validation rules in TISs which enforce same ticket-type for Two Together ticket purchases but I don't think that's what the public-facing railcard terms and conditions actually require.

To me this sounds like it could be an unusual (but legitimate) use of two different Two Together railcards for different journeys. ( And if booking systems struggle with this then it's all the more credit to the whoever issued the original tickets.)


From the FAQ at https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/


Q: Do we need to start and end our journeys together for the Two Together Railcard discount to be valid?

A: Yes, you must travel together throughout your whole journey, for both named cardholders to be eligible for the Two Together Railcard discount.


and also

Q: How many Two Together Railcards can I have?

A: There is no limit on the number of Two Together Railcards you can hold.

The OP is travelling with his wife (on a their valid TTRC) throughout their whole (outward) journey. He returns - travelling throughout with his brother (on their separate valid TTRC).

As ever, it comes down to the definition of 'journey' - something the T&Cs don't provide. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider outward and return to be separate journeys - NCRoT makes this distinction at various points.

I appreciate it is an unusual travel journey but what you said is correct, we showed all railcards at Forster Square and after explaining what we were doing the lady served us our seven tickets, so it must be all legitimate.

We stand to lose around £35 if we don't change them.

Is it best to just accept that they cannot be changed and buy new ones?

 

[Eric]

This is in a thread titled " Getting refunds for tickets" in the Disputes section of the forum, as it is a dispute. If you wish to discuss the matter further, use the 'Contact Us' form at the bottom of each page.


It sounds like the booking clerk did you a favour however now you have changed your plans it's going to be at best a pain to change it, and at worst impossible.

You can complain to Northern, which will probably result in that person doing things 'by the book' and not doing you a favour in future.

Sorry Yorkie, I misread the title of this part of the forum. Apologies.

 

[Haywain]

From the FAQ at https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/


Q: Do we need to start and end our journeys together for the Two Together Railcard discount to be valid?

A: Yes, you must travel together throughout your whole journey, for both named cardholders to be eligible for the Two Together Railcard discount.


and also

Q: How many Two Together Railcards can I have?

A: There is no limit on the number of Two Together Railcards you can hold.

The OP is travelling with his wife (on a their valid TTRC) throughout their whole (outward) journey. He returns - travelling throughout with his brother (on their separate valid TTRC).

A bit selective with the T&Cs, I think. Try this one:
4.4. Discounted tickets must be bought for both cardholders at the same time, and you must travel together.
My view is that travelling using different ticket types clearly indicates not travelling together.

I appreciate it is an unusual travel journey but what you said is correct, we showed all railcards at Forster Square and after explaining what we were doing the lady served us our seven tickets, so it must be all legitimate.

As yorkie said:

It sounds like the booking clerk did you a favour

 

[some bloke]

As ever, it comes down to the definition of 'journey' - something the T&Cs don't provide. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider outward and return to be separate journeys

As the drafters may not have envisaged your scenario when writing the terms and conditions, perhaps it's worth making an enquiry rather than a complaint.

You could mention that the Consumer Rights Act 2015 says:

"If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/2/enacted

 

[JB_B]

A bit selective with the T&Cs, I think. Try this one:
4.4. Discounted tickets must be bought for both cardholders at the same time, and you must travel together.

AFAICS The OP has explained that the tickets for the cardholders were purchased at the same time ( for both pairs of cardholders.) And, for each journey, the cardholders travelled together.

My view is that travelling using different ticket types clearly indicates not travelling together.

That would certainly be true in most cases (where just one TTRC is held) - I don't see that it necessarily holds where someone has two TTRCs.

 

[some bloke]

4.4. Discounted tickets must be bought for both cardholders at the same time, and you must travel together.
My view is that travelling using different ticket types clearly indicates not travelling together.

Legally, the question would seem to be not what the most reasonable view is, but whether the term could have a different meaning. Condition 4.4 doesn't explicitly forbid this kind of combination of two railcards - in line with JB_B's point.

I don't see that it necessarily holds where someone has two TTRCs.

However, perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not clear how there are 7 tickets.

2 - your day return
2 - your wife's return
1 single to Blackpool
1 single on TTRC for your brother? If it's a return, how can he use it? Perhaps the the seventh ticket is a non-TTRC single for him.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The obvious route is for the OP to upload some jpgs of all the tickets he purchased - the descriptions are not adding up.

 

[JB_B]

...

However, perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not clear how there are 7 tickets.

2 - your day return
2 - your wife's return
1 single to Blackpool
1 single on TTRC for your brother? If it's a return, how can he use it? Perhaps the the seventh ticket is a non-TTRC single for him.

The obvious route is for the OP to upload some jpgs of all the tickets he purchased - the descriptions are not adding up.

The OP did mention 'ticket combinations' so maybe there's a split in there.

I agree that it would be useful to have a full list of the tickets purchased.

 

[Starmill]

The best advice if you have been turned away at the ticket office is likely this.

Post the tickets to Northern at their customer relations address 'Freepost Northern'. Write a short cover letter explaining that you bought the tickets (say when and where) but now don't need them, and that you'd like to apply a refund in accordance with the conditions of the tickets. You could calculate the value you're expecting back, after refund fees, and include that if you like. I would definitely keep a note of it.

Then go and buy new tickets for whatever you actually now do want, and wait for them to get back to you with a refund. Don't get into the other issues unless you're asked to. I doubt you will be, as I imagine they'll just process the refund and charge the fees.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would definitely keep a note of it.

I would always obtain proof of postage for anything like this; it is free to obtain at a Post Office counter. Keep the receipt safe and preferably take a picture as backup!

If Northern then claim not to have received anything, you have concrete proof the letter was deemed received the relevant number of working days later (2 or 3 depending on if their Freepost address operates via first or second class). If necessary, you can then make a claim from the Royal Mail for losing the post (though there is a limit of £20 IIRC for regular post).

 

[ainsworth74]

The best advice if you have been turned away at the ticket office is likely this.

Post the tickets to Northern at their customer relations address 'Freepost Northern'. Write a short cover letter explaining that you bought the tickets (say when and where) but now don't need them, and that you'd like to apply a refund in accordance with the conditions of the tickets. You could calculate the value you're expecting back, after refund fees, and include that if you like. I would definitely keep a note of it.

Then go and buy new tickets for whatever you actually now do want, and wait for them to get back to you with a refund. Don't get into the other issues unless you're asked to. I doubt you will be, as I imagine they'll just process the refund and charge the fees.

I would suggest that this would be the simplest way of resolving the situation (coupled with @ForTheLoveOf's tip with getting proof of postage). I wouldn't bother getting into the technicalities of the terms and conditions or the Consumer Rights Act at this stage.

 

[Eric]

I would suggest that this would be the simplest way of resolving the situation (coupled with @ForTheLoveOf's tip with getting proof of postage). I wouldn't bother getting into the technicalities of the terms and conditions or the Consumer Rights Act at this stage.

All tickets posted back to northern this morning with a letter explaining why I would like a refund.

Now going to Blackpool next Wednesday.

How long will it take for Northern to refund me my tickets?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

All tickets posted back to northern this morning with a letter explaining why I would like a refund.

Now going to Blackpool next Wednesday.

How long will it take for Northern to refund me my tickets?

How long's a piece of string?! It may take anything from a few weeks, to a few months.

 

[najaB]

How long will it take for Northern to refund me my tickets?

As @ForTheLoveOf says, it's impossible to predict with accuracy, but two to three weeks is typical.

 

[142blue]

What ticket did you have to come back from Blackpool with your wife

 

[gray1404]

Refunds should take up to 28 days from when the request is received.

I once posted tickets back to VT in the regular post for refund. VT never received them and refused refund when I presented copy of tickets and proof of posting. I claimed to Royal Mail who rejected the claim saying that items of value like cash or tickets are not covered and should not be sent using regular post. They did enclose 6 1st class stamps, not sure if that was an entitlement or goodwill gesture? Anyone know?

Thankfully the tickers turned up at VT some weeks later and I received a refund - thankfully VT didn't refuse on the basis it was after 28 days of ticket expiry, perhaps because I'd been in touch already following it up.