Glasgow To Liverpool direct?

[cal12]

According to Wikipedia There is going to be a new Virgin Service to Liverpool from Glasgow in 2015.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

 

[Failed Unit]

According to Wikipedia There is going to be a new Virgin Service to Liverpool from Glasgow in 2015.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

Never trust wiki.

But equally don't rule it out once the wires are up. Could very easily do an early morning / late evening positioning move. But not seen it as a commitment like Blackpool and Shrewsbury are.

 

[sonic2009]

That's the first ive heard, one thing you have to ask yourself is where will the stock come from?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Never trust wiki.
But equally don't rule it out once the wires are up. Could very easily do an early morning / late evening positioning move. But not seen it as a commitment like Blackpool and Shrewsbury are.

The only mention of such a service has been in a TPE context (joining/splitting at Preston), but there aren't enough 350 sets.
VT might run an ECS positioning move Preston-Edge Hill this way instead of via Crewe, but it would turn the stock.

 

[SkinnyDave]

According to Wikipedia There is going to be a new Virgin Service to Liverpool from Glasgow in 2015.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

Still think ICWC should be given Scot-Manc & Liverpool routes when next franchise is awarded..
We know from last bids that new stock was on the agenda and a bolt on for these services should be included

 

[cal12]

cheers for your input guys!

I agree with SkinnyDave; the ICWC franchise should get the Manchester to Scotland service.

Post electirfication of the bolton route it would be cool to see the London - Manchester and Scotland - Manchester services tagged onto each other so having a London - Scotland via Manchester, like they did with the Birmingham trains.

Would still love to see some direct Glasgow - Liverpool trains as my family stay on the Wirral. I think im getting a bit ambitious here.

Here's something I don't understand: on Intercity routes going to London, why is it such a big deal for first class to be at the south end of the train? If it's got First Class and the train is running on time who gives a crap what end of the train first class is?

 

[SkinnyDave]

cheers for your input guys!
i agree with skinny dave the icwc franchise should get the manchester to scotland service. post electirfication of the bolton route it would be kool to see the london manchester and scotland manchester services tagged onto each other so having a london scotland via manchester like they did with the birmingham trains. would still love to see some direct glasgow liverpool trains as my family stay on the wirral think im getting a bit ambitious here.

heres something i dont understand on intercity routes going to london why is it such a big deal for first class to be at the south end of the train. if its got first class and the train is running on time who gives a crap what end of the train first class is.

Tradition..

 

[thenorthern]

If it was true that Liverpool was going to have Scottish services it would be great, Liverpool always seems a bit off the beaten track to me compared to Manchester and it would help it to have more services to destinations outside the North of England. More London services would be useful for Liverpool I think as well, I find it strange that Livepool has only hourly to London but half hourly to Birmingham.

Totally agree that Manchester - Scottish services should be transferred to the Inter-City West Coast franchise and agree that it should be connected with the London - Stoke-on-Trent - Manchester services.

 

[dvboy]

Tradition..

I think the idea is that it's not as far to walk.

 

[Darren R]

...heres something i dont understand on intercity routes going to london why is it such a big deal for first class to be at the south end of the train. if its got first class and the train is running on time who gives a crap what end of the train first class is.

If I had sold a kidney in order to pay for a first class open return to London, I think the least I would expect is not to have too far to walk upon arrival!

 

[MCR247]

Surely its best from the point of view from all passengers that in normal circumstances coach A will always be at a certain end of the platform etc, so when faced with the resulting decision about which end to put first class, having it at the London end seems fairly obvious? (It also means that every std class passengers has to walk past first, showing them what they're missing )

 

[anme]

Surely its best from the point of view from all passengers that in normal circumstances coach A will always be at a certain end of the platform etc, so when faced with the resulting decision about which end to put first class, having it at the London end seems fairly obvious? (It also means that every std class passengers has to walk past first, showing them what they're missing )

I agree that it's preferred, but it hardly seems so important that the DfT would provide, or not provide, a service just to make it more likely.

Anyway, there are other ways to achieve the same thing. Paper or electronic coach numbering would ensure whatever coaches appear in whatever order you want. Who says first class has to be in coach K?

 

[fgwrich]

I wonder if this is/was a response to the proposed ''Glasgow Trains' service once proposed by the team behind Hull Trains / Wrexham & Shropshire? Or could it just be a case of someone crossing their wires?

 

[edwin_m]

post electirfication of the bolton route it would be kool to see the london manchester and scotland manchester services tagged onto each other so having a london scotland via manchester like they did with the birmingham trains. would still love to see some direct glasgow liverpool trains as my family stay on the wirral think im getting a bit ambitious here.

A London-Scotland via Manchester would be a lot slower so not much use for through journeys, though it might happen after HS2 phase 2. Also a London-Manchester would be a full-length Pendolino, but this would probably be too long for Manchester-Scotland and would prevent attaching of a Liverpool portion at Wigan or Preston. It is probably also too long to fit in the new platforms 15-16 at Piccadilly after Northern Hub.

heres something i dont understand on intercity routes going to london why is it such a big deal for first class to be at the south end of the train. if its got first class and the train is running on time who gives a crap what end of the train first class is.

It's not essential for this to happen but it makes life simpler if passengers know roughly which part of the platform to wait on. EMT's routes mean trains get turned round a lot so they're accustomed to finding themselves at the wrong end of the train, but because the West Coast network has few places where trains can be turned round the're not really good at coping with it when it does happen.

At the other extreme I believe Bounds Green depot is laid out with all the equipment they need to service 91s at the north end, so if a 225 set gets turned it has to be turned back again before it needs maintenance.

 

[thealexweb]

...A London-Scotland via Manchester would be a lot slower so not much use for through journeys...

Glasgow Central to London Euston 'direct' currently takes four hours 30 minutes approx. Glasgow Central to Manchester Piccadilly currently takes three hours twenty minutes approx, add on to this the current journey time between Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston of two hours five minutes approx and we have a journey time of five hours 25 minutes approx if the service ran today.

Looking beyond December 2016 if we factor in the shorter route via Bolton and its upcoming 100mph speed limits and using Class 390's acceleration for the whole route its realistic if could be brought under five hours. Excellent when compared to the six hours plus running time when going via Birmingham.

An ideal calling pattern like this perhaps:

Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley
Carlisle
Lancaster
Preston
Bolton
Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Piccadilly
Stoke-On-Trent
Milton Keynes Central
London Euston

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Glasgow Central to London Euston 'direct' currently takes four hours 30 minutes approx. Glasgow Central to Manchester Piccadilly currently takes three hours twenty minutes approx, add on to this the current journey time between Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston of two hours five minutes approx and we have a journey time of five hours 25 minutes approx if the service ran today.
Looking beyond December 2016 if we factor in the shorter route via Bolton and its upcoming 100mph speed limits and using Class 390's acceleration for the whole route its realistic if could be brought under five hours. Excellent when compared to the six hours plus running time when going via Birmingham.

It's 5.5 hours via Birmingham, including a fair wait at Wolverhampton.
There would also have to be a long dwell time somewhere on a Manchester routeing for performance reasons.
You wouldn't want to do that at Piccadilly.
You would also dump people at the furthest end of Piccadilly P14 instead of right by the concourse, and couldn't serve Oxford Road (or the Airport).

The killer, though, is that DfT shows no signs of wanting to take these routes away from TPE.
If the ITT in December reflects the prospectus, it will be a dead duck for maybe 15 years.

 

[HowardGWR]

A London-Scotland via Manchester would be a lot slower so not much use for through journeys, though it might happen after HS2 phase 2. Also a London-Manchester would be a full-length Pendolino, but this would probably be too long for Manchester-Scotland and would prevent attaching of a Liverpool portion at Wigan or Preston. It is probably also too long to fit in the new platforms 15-16 at Piccadilly after Northern Hub.

At the other extreme I believe Bounds Green depot is laid out with all the equipment they need to service 91s at the north end, so if a 225 set gets turned it has to be turned back again before it needs maintenance.

Would it not be more flexible to have loco hauled (or pushed) stock anyway, once HS2 et al is up and running, on these routes with variable demand? On the other hand, if we had 159 type operation, as at Salisbury where trains split, do we know how much drag at 125 mph a corridor nose instead of a bulb nose costs?

 

[route:oxford]

Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley
Carlisle
Lancaster
Preston
Bolton
Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Piccadilly
Stoke-On-Trent
Milton Keynes Central
London Euston

Make it a new "Cross-Country" route starting in Stirling, routing via E-W and finishing at Heathrow with a reversal at Hayes & Harlington.

Few people would use it from end-to-end, but it would give a fantastic opportunity for sectional through journeys.

07:00 Stirling
07:14 Falkirk Grahamston
07:35 Edinburgh Park
07:41 Haymarket
07:52 Edinburgh Waverley
07:56 Haymarket
09:06 Carlisle
10:03 Lancaster
10:21 Preston
10:59 Manchester Oxford Road
11:10 Manchester Piccadilly
11:43 Stoke-On-Trent
12:41 Milton Keynes
13:00 Bicester Village
13:03 Oxford Parkway
13:07 Oxford Central
13:30 Reading
13:51 Hayes & Harlington
14:05 Heathrow T1,T2&T3
14:10 Heathrow T5

 

[MCR247]

Would it not be more flexible to have loco hauled (or pushed) stock anyway, once HS2 et al is up and running, on these routes with variable demand? On the other hand, if we had 159 type operation, as at Salisbury where trains split, do we know how much drag at 125 mph a corridor nose instead of a bulb nose costs?

Surely if anything MUs are more flexible than loco hauled?

 

[thenorthern]

An ideal calling pattern like this perhaps:

Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley
Carlisle
Lancaster
Preston
Bolton
Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Piccadilly
Stoke-On-Trent
Milton Keynes Central
London Euston

I doubt any company would want to miss out Stockport as a calling point on any service and I think Manchester Oxford Road would be skipped as well.

I think it would go:

Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley
Carlisle
Penrith The North Lakes/Oxenholme Lake District (alternating)
Lancaster
Preston
Bolton
Manchester Piccadilly
Stockport
Stoke-On-Trent
Milton Keynes Central

 

[edwin_m]

Looking beyond December 2016 if we factor in the shorter route via Bolton and its upcoming 100mph speed limits and using Class 390's acceleration for the whole route its realistic if could be brought under five hours. Excellent when compared to the six hours plus running time when going via Birmingham.

An ideal calling pattern like this perhaps:

Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley
Carlisle
Lancaster
Preston
Bolton
Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Piccadilly
Stoke-On-Trent
Milton Keynes Central
London Euston

Even with the accelerations you suggest, every one of those station pairs would have a through journey at least every hour, in the same or less time, using other services, with the exception of Stoke to Scotland and ... journeys to or from Bolton. What a surprise.

And you've ignored my point about a Pendolino being too long to fit in Piccadilly through platforms after Northern Hub.

Can't we keep this topic for Glasgow to Liverpool, which is a real missing link between two major cities, rather than turning it into yet another piece of special pleading for an unrelated cause?

 

[yorkie]

According to Wikipedia ...

I don't think Wikipedia themselves are making this claim. Where is the origin of the claim? A primary source is needed please

 

[route:oxford]

Can't we keep this topic for Glasgow to Liverpool, which is a real missing link between two major cities, rather than turning it into yet another piece of special pleading for an unrelated cause?

Why cut it short at Glasgow though?

Not everyone wants to trail across the city.

Better to route it via Edinburgh and give options for services further North?

 

[fowler9]

Surely if anything MUs are more flexible than loco hauled?

It depends. Take the last direct Liverpool to Scotland services (I may be wrong on this). They were formed of a class 47 and 6 coaches. It would now be formed I am guessing of 4 or 8. In the age of multiple units there is no other option other than perhaps a 5 car Voyager. Multiple Units give the option of too long, too short or far too short.

 

[thenorthern]

Back until 2002ish there was a Virgin Cross Country I think that went Liverpool Lime Street - St Helens Central - Preston - Scotland but that has long gone now.

 

[najaB]

W...do we know how much drag at 125 mph a corridor nose instead of a bulb nose costs?

I'm pretty sure they're not allowed on services that exceed a certain speed (I think it's 90mph).

 

[PHILIPE]

This post seems to be developing into one we have just been discussing and which dragged on and on with people suggesting many hypothetical, and sometimes even absurd, routes for Cross-Country.

The topic was "Where should XC Serve" and dragged on over 5 months and 24 pages.

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98615

 

[Manchester77]

I'm pretty sure they're not allowed on services that exceed a certain speed (I think it's 90mph).

London Midland have them on their 350s which travel at 110 though?

 

[najaB]

London Midland have them on their 350s which travel at 110 though?

You are, of course, correct. I was mis-remembering an earlier thread. It's not that it isn't allowed, just that from an engineering point of view it isn't a great idea: it's hard to seal the doors properly and it means that there is very little 'crumple zone' between the front of the train and the passenger compartment.

 

[TUC]

Surely its best from the point of view from all passengers that in normal circumstances coach A will always be at a certain end of the platform etc, so when faced with the resulting decision about which end to put first class, having it at the London end seems fairly obvious? (It also means that every std class passengers has to walk past first, showing them what they're missing )

Althouigh Hull Trains and Grand Central have their First Class in the middle of the train so there's nothing fixed in stone except lack of creativity.