Glen Sannox on sea trials - Now handed over - and in use!

[Peter Mugridge]

There was a lot of stuff in the news over last week saying her CO2 output is a lot higher than the ferry she's replacing...

 

[jagardner1984]

There is some interesting number manipulation in both directions there I would say.

She emits far more CO2, but carries far more cars. So at 100% load factor on both ships, the CO2 per vehicle is less than on her predecessor. I’m not enough of a mariner to understand how fuel consumption works on a part loaded ship (I’d assume less, but to what extent), but given the capacity exceeds the demand on the route, particularly at some times of year, it is therefore highly possible she is more carbon intensive.

Then of course there is the situation of shore facilities, fuel depots, and driving tankers of LNG from Dover.

For some people, they will only hear bad news relating to these ferries, for others, they are blind to the failures of leadership and governance that have led to this point. The truth as ever is somewhere in the middle.

I am sure however it is achieved, and whatever the failings to date, additional capacity across the CalMac network will be welcomed by those who depend upon it. Given the age of the fleet, I would suspect we will hear more on this theme in years to come.

 

[Meerkat]

Then of course there is the situation of shore facilities, fuel depots, and driving tankers of LNG from Dover.

As it’s supposed to be green why isn’t the LNG sent up by rail - doesn’t the far north gas supply go in containers from Kent via a container train?

 

[Killingworth]

And still not operational, this time sewage problems, from The Telegraph; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...it-snp-ferry-launch-stung-by-sewage-problems/

Scandal-hit SNP ferry launch stung by sewage problems​

Trial sailing called off as CalMac races to fix issues on delayed Glen Sannox

Christopher JasperTransport industry editor
Related Topics

07 January 2025 2:03pm GMT

The Glen Sannox has been suffering a glitch with electronics on the vessel’s bridge Credit: Jane Barlow/PA
A much-delayed Scottish ferry funded by the Scottish National Party (SNP) has suffered a fresh setback after encountering problems with its onboard sewage system.
Scottish Government-owned operator CalMac is racing to fix issues with the sewage and lavatory system on the Glen Sannox vessel after tests indicated it would struggle to cope with the demands of hundreds of passengers.
The ferry, which with its sister ship the Glen Rosa is £250m over budget and six years late, has been undergoing sea trials since mid-November and is set to begin commercial services to

However, the ferry firm called off a trial sailing with invited guests and the media scheduled for Tuesday after the fault was discovered.
CalMac said the Glen Sannox required “minor remedial work” to fix the sewage system, which uses vacuum technology to evacuate waste when the toilets are flushed.
Other outstanding issues include a glitch with electronics on the vessel’s bridge, although the company said it remained confident of bringing the ferry into service as planned on Jan 13.
A CalMac spokesman said: “As can normally be anticipated during the early stages of a newbuild vessel’s operational life, we have a number of technical issues that we are working to resolve.
“The issues relate to ancillary systems that are not critical to general vessel operation but are needed for full entry into service. The route will launch with a full timetable and is already bookable on our website from that date.”

The Glen Sannox was launched by Nicola Sturgeon, then SNP leader and first minister, in 2017 at a ceremony for which it was given painted-on windows and plywood funnels to mask the reality that it was only partly built.
Originally slated for delivery a year later, the ferry suffered a series of construction issues that led Ms Sturgeon to nationalise failed manufacturer Ferguson Marine in 2019. CalMac itself has been under state control since 1990.
The bosses of both firms were ousted within weeks of each other last year, with the Scottish Conservatives suggesting that the pair had been made scapegoats for the SNP’s mismanagement of the ferry network and the procurement of replacement ships.
The Glen Sannox will have space for more than 850 passengers and 130 cars and will play a crucial role in bolstering capacity to Arran, the busiest route on the CalMac network.

 

[jagardner1984]

As it’s supposed to be green why isn’t the LNG sent up by rail - doesn’t the far north gas supply go in containers from Kent via a container train?

MV Glen Sannox (2017) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am sure I read somewhere about pressure / temperature sensitivies made it simpler to move by road from Grain to Scotland. Again, my understanding of what a 1300 tonne ferry consumes in LNG is not extensive, but I'd imagine it is .... significant, so therefore you'd imagine trying to come up with some longer term solution - e.g. deliveries by sea to Somewhere in Scotland, larger storage near Troon / Ardrossan, is something of a priority, however much they won't want to highlight that (or any other) issues, in coming weeks.

And still not operational, this time sewage problems, from The Telegraph; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...it-snp-ferry-launch-stung-by-sewage-problems/

Key word in bold. Wherever governments may reside, the wilful misunderstanding of our friends in Fleet Street, as to Mark Drakeford's personal operational responsibility for waiting lists west of the Border, or Yvette Cooper's personal command of Border Force Boats in the channel, or Gillian Keegan's personal responsibility for porous RAAC Concrete in School Roofs, or indeed Fiona Hyslop's personal liability for Ferry Linkspans at Ardrossan, never ceases to amaze. It is surely how each of those people tackle the challenges that are brought to them by officials, which should be of interest to us as voters. None of the above challenges have arrived overnight, most of them cross multiple governments, and all were addressed in the midst of a dire financial environment. This is all vital context.

As anyone who has introduced anything, anywhere, ever, will tell us (see most rolling stock introduction ad infinitum), it is only by putting the products, be they trains, planes, ferries, hospitals, schools, in the hands of passengers, staff, maintenance crews, that issues are discovered and worked through. They aren't all badly built and they certainly aren't comissioned to worsen the public experience (often at phenomenal cost to achieve the opposite). They are largely designed, used, staffed and maintained by humans, who mess it up sometimes.

It is depressing we can't have a more mature conversation as to the complexity of introducing things & systems, whatever and wherever they may be. There is absolutely a legitimate criticism and an investigation to be had, of the design process and management processes at Ferguson and their links to CMAL and the Scottish Government, but the mentality of endlessly attacking those who strive to achieve something new, bigger, better, different, for their customers, consituents, staff, is not conducive to better policy making or a stronger economy.

 

[AndrewE]

all that is correct, but you would have thought that after innumerable cruise ships have been built and put into service - on top of the middle-distance Hertigruten-type ferries - they would have been able to install a sewage system which worked though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The sewage system is one of the basics these days on a vessel designed to convey people in any number, be they passengers or crew living aboard. And in this case we have both. So stop cheaply specified? Very possibly in my personal and probably biased view, easily fixed? Hopefully. Should have been done correctly in the first place, absolutely definitely. And we don't exactly hear of many problems of this kind, despite the number of new vessels being launched or majorly refurbished around the world every year

 

[Falcon1200]

indeed Fiona Hyslop's personal liability for Ferry Linkspans at Ardrossan, never ceases to amaze. It is surely how each of those people tackle the challenges that are brought to them by officials, which should be of interest to us as voters. None of the above challenges have arrived overnight, most of them cross multiple governments, and all were addressed in the midst of a dire financial environment.

Regarding Scotland's ferries, as being discussed here, the same party has been in power in the Scottish Government since 2007; Ample time to sort out issues which indeed have most certainly 'not arrived overnight', surely?

 

[Buzby]

I came in from Helensburgh this morning and looking across the Clyde at Cardross saw the ship still moored at the dock (James Watt?) whilst the snagging is completed.

Clearly its ‘shadow running’ period - this week - has been impacted, so here’s hoping it makes the first day of service now just 5 days away on Monday, as I expect the media to continue their ’SNP bad’ mantra irrespective of what actually happens.

 

[Indigo Soup]

She emits far more CO2, but carries far more cars. So at 100% load factor on both ships, the CO2 per vehicle is less than on her predecessor. I’m not enough of a mariner to understand how fuel consumption works on a part loaded ship (I’d assume less, but to what extent), but given the capacity exceeds the demand on the route, particularly at some times of year, it is therefore highly possible she is more carbon intensive.

For a ship of this type the variation with load is minimal. It carries at most 700 tonnes of vehicles (16 fully laden HGVs), and will weigh around 4,100 tonnes. The 1,273 deadweight tonne figure is cargo, fuel, and anything else movable - including 75 tonnes of passengers.

On the Arran route, demand is also sufficiently high that there's almost no risk of running at a low load factor unless required for operational reasons. Cynically, the existing ferries achieve very low emissions in practice by being stuck in port broken down so often!

I am sure I read somewhere about pressure / temperature sensitivies made it simpler to move by road from Grain to Scotland. Again, my understanding of what a 1300 tonne ferry consumes in LNG is not extensive, but I'd imagine it is .... significant, so therefore you'd imagine trying to come up with some longer term solution - e.g. deliveries by sea to Somewhere in Scotland, larger storage near Troon / Ardrossan, is something of a priority, however much they won't want to highlight that (or any other) issues, in coming weeks.

The LNG delivery issue is one CMAL is well aware of. They do have an aspiration to better fuelling infrastructure, but one ship doesn't create enough demand to make it economic.

 

[Falcon1200]

the media to continue their ’SNP bad’ mantra irrespective of what actually happens.

The media are just reporting, albeit each with their individual political slant, what has happened, namely;

The ferries are years late entering service;
Dates for this have come and gone with monotonous frequency;
They have cost many millions more than the original price, and;
They cannot even dock at their planned mainland port.

And, notwithstanding the turmoil mentioned elsewhere, this was all under the auspices and control of one party. So it is not surprising that they are held responsible!

 

[Transilien]

Will ferries run agains from Ardrossan once Caledonian Isles is back in service? Also is there any timeframe on Glen Rosa entering service?

 

[Buzby]

So it is not surprising that they are held responsible

There cannot be anyone alive who is not aware of the problems - but the implication that any other administration would have managed it better is an unknown quantity, but I suspect, would be similar to the mismanagement for HS2. My issue is that the same old tropes are trotted out each time as if it heralds a fresh disaster - when in fact it is just the usual vested interests up to their usual tricks who will continue to flog the horse - I’m fed up with it. Aren’t you?

Anyone want to wager how many minutes it will be before the same old ground is revisited following any delay? I’m truly glad the service will (hopefully) start in 5 days. It will make a tangible difference to the fleet.

 

[Meerkat]

The LNG delivery issue is one CMAL is well aware of. They do have an aspiration to better fuelling infrastructure, but one ship doesn't create enough demand to make it economic.

So they chose a fuel they can’t easily obtain?!

There cannot be anyone alive who is not aware of the problems - but the implication that any other administration would have managed it better is an unknown quantity, but I suspect, would be similar to the mismanagement for HS2. My issue is that the same old tropes are trotted out each time as if it heralds a fresh disaster - when in fact it is just the usual vested interests up to their usual tricks who will continue to flog the horse - I’m fed up with it. Aren’t you?

Anyone want to wager how many minutes it will be before the same old ground is revisited following any delay? I’m truly glad the service will (hopefully) start in 5 days. It will make a tangible difference to the fleet.

Maybe the SNP would have got more sympathy if they hadn’t spent years blaming Westminster for everything and telling us that things would be better run by them. They set themselves up to be judged.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Maybe the SNP would have got more sympathy if they hadn’t spent years blaming Westminster for everything and telling us that things would be better run by them. They set themselves up to be judged.

If I had a quid for every time I had said words to this effect over the last few years, I would never need to worry about where my rent was coming from again.
Glenn, Rosa scheduled for September at the moment

 

[Falcon1200]

I’m fed up with it. Aren’t you?

Living like you in Scotland the main thing I am fed up with is the amount of my taxes wasted by an incompetent administration, of which the ferry fiasco is just one example.

 

[Buzby]

Maybe the SNP would have got more sympathy if they hadn’t spent years blaming Westminster for everything

Do you mean just like Labour at Westminster using the Tories as an excuse (‘Tory Misrule’ as PM Wilson called it?). It is the complainers who refuse to move on to new concerns that we may not know about - not rehash non-new issues because it’s an easy kick in the teeth!

Living like you in Scotland the main thing I am fed up with is the amount of my taxes wasted by an incompetent administration, of which the ferry fiasco is just one example.

I’m well used it but then we’ve been funding HS2 with an equally incompetent administration, yet here we are, out the EU and our travel is severely impacted. There are much more serious issues were kept well away from so maybe it is time for a change?

 

[Noddy]

There cannot be anyone alive who is not aware of the problems - but the implication that any other administration would have managed it better is an unknown quantity, but I suspect, would be similar to the mismanagement for HS2. My issue is that the same old tropes are trotted out each time as if it heralds a fresh disaster - when in fact it is just the usual vested interests up to their usual tricks who will continue to flog the horse - I’m fed up with it. Aren’t you?

Anyone want to wager how many minutes it will be before the same old ground is revisited following any delay? I’m truly glad the service will (hopefully) start in 5 days. It will make a tangible difference to the fleet.

I personally I think the reason the SNP are more to blame here than say with HS2, is a) building ferrries is (or should be) far simpler, for example how many other recent examples of similar sized ships have been this late and this over budget? Pentland Ferries paid £14 million for the slightly smaller MV Alfred in 2017, the bigger Manxman 3 was £78 million in 2021. Both ships were in service within three years of being ordered. Remind me again how much Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa cost and how late they are?

b) the government SNP administration made a political choice to use a fuel source that was possibly inappropriate for a relatively short haul service, certainly was not use anywhere else in the UK, and most importantly one that only one shipyard in the world had a proven track record of building ships with. But instead of using this Polish shipyard they may a second entirely political decision to have Ferguson build the ship and told the country that they would be able to create a local supply chain for LNG in Scotland which was at best naive but more likely just incompetent.

 

[Transilien]

b) the government SNP administration made a political choice to use a fuel source that was possibly inappropriate for a relatively short haul service, certainly was not use anywhere else in the UK, and most importantly one that only one shipyard in the world had a proven track record of building ships with. But instead of using this Polish shipyard they may a second entirely political decision to have Ferguson build the ship and told the country that they would be able to create a local supply chain for LNG in Scotland which was at best naive but more likely just incompetent.

At least the SNP were trying to use a greener energy source and support local jobs, but they failed. Many previous Calmac ships were built at ferguson's before and the yard seemed to be effective until now at delivering ships. Also, the Scottish government can only make political decisions (unless your idea of a political decision is one that you disagree with). I can imagine that only foreign yards will get tenders now for Calmac ships after this controversy, whoever wins the next Scottish election. People will likely then moan that no ships are built locally anymore and whatever party in control of the Scottish parliament will be blamed for killing Scottish industry (unless you vote for that party).

 

[Albaman]

Will ferries run agains from Ardrossan once Caledonian Isles is back in service? Also is there any timeframe on Glen Rosa entering service?

According to the Caledonian MacBrayne website, the service from Ardrossan will resume on 28 March 2025.

 

[Southsider]

According to the Caledonian MacBrayne website, the service from Ardrossan will resume on 28 March 2025.

That’s when Caledonian Isles is expected back.

 

[Transilien]

According to the Caledonian MacBrayne website, the service from Ardrossan will resume on 28 March 2025.

That's good news, it's strange that Calmac doesn't keep Isle of Arran running from Ardrossan to bridge the gap.

 

[Buzby]

Isle of Arran running from Ardrossan to bridge the gap.

AIUI there is still the issue of assistance in boarding - customers as being told to use Troon instead.

 

[Noddy]

At least the SNP were trying to use a greener energy source and support local jobs, but they failed. Many previous calmac ships were built at ferguson's before and the yard seemed to be effective until now at delivering ships. Also, the Scottish government can only make political decisions (unless your idea of a political decision is one that you disagree with). I can imagine that only foreign yards will get tenders now for calmac ships after this contrevercy, whoever wins the next Scottish election. People will likely then moan that no ships are built locally anymore and whatever party in control of the Scottish parliament will be blamed for killing Scottish industry (unless you vote for that party).

Absolutely Ferguson could build ferries but they had no experience of LNG. The only yard that had built LNG ferries was in Poland. In terms of governments only making political decisions building a conventional ferry to a conventional design with a competitive tender isn’t really a political decision. But choosing to build one to an unconventional design to fit a ‘green’ policy* becomes one. Choosing a home shipyard with no experience over a foreign one that has a proven track record is a political decision.

*I have no issues with governments making positive environmental decisions and personally I drive an EV for example and am looking to change my gas boiler to a heat pump. However even if the ships had been on budget and on time, there are still question marks here. The ships require diesel when navigating into and out of Adrossan and Brodick and are LNG when at sea. That’s completely the wrong way round, especially for a short route such as this! The diesel fumes will cause a direct health impact on folk living and working in those towns, and let’s face it we’ve all seen the black filth that comes out of ferries when they are manoeuvring in port etc.

 

[Transilien]

AIUI there is still the issue of assistance in boarding - customers as being told to use Troon instead.

Is Isle of Arran not accesable for people with mobility issues? Or is this something at the port end?

building a conventional ferry to a conventional design with a competitive tender isn’t really a political decision

It is though as if a conventional ferry could be built in Poland or Scotland then the Scottish government is making a political decision wether to make the more popular (with voters) choice of having the ferry built in Scotland, therefore boosting the local economy and appealing to the electorate. Or to make the choice of buliding it in Poland which could be cheaper and more straightforward but could be less popular with the electorate. EVERY decision any government makes is political no matter what it is.

 

[Buzby]

Is Isle of Arran not accesable for people with mobility issues? Or is this something at the port end?

It is a problem with the ship’s lift:

 

[Noddy]

It is though as if a conventional ferry could be built in Poland or Scotland then the Scottish government is making a political decision wether to make the more popular (with voters) choice of having the ferry built in Scotland, therefore boosting the local economy and appealing to the electorate. Or to make the choice of buliding it in Poland which could be cheaper and more straightforward but could be less popular with the electorate. EVERY decision any government makes is political no matter what it is.

Er thats kind of my point, what you have described (and what happened) is a political decision based on trying to win votes.

On the other hand if the Scottish government/SNP had taken a step back and allowed CMAL to run an open competitive tender based on quality, price, speed of delivery, environmental impact etc (all the normal factors that a private company would use) and government ministers did not have any decision making influence that would not have been making a political decision. It would have been a tender based decision. IMO it would have resulted in a far better outcomes for everyone involved, but even if things had gone wrong then the Scottish Government/SNP would not have been to blame. But they made two political decisions (attempting to win votes) regarding these ferries and as such they should be held entirely accountable.

 

[Indigo Soup]

So they chose a fuel they can’t easily obtain?!

They chose a fuel that supported emissions reduction. Sticking with pure diesel wasn't a viable option, and the need to bring LNG up from England by road was recognised when the choice was made.

At the time that was made, it was (perhaps naively) hoped that there would be other ships using LNG coming along shortly thereafter, making supply easier - but that wasn't an essential component. I've seen much bigger ships receive fuel from road tankers!

On the other hand if the Scottish government/SNP had taken a step back and allowed CMAL to run an open competitive tender based on quality, price, speed of delivery, environmental impact etc (all the normal factors that a private company would use) and government ministers would not have any decision making influence that would not have been making a political decision. It would have been a tender based decision. IMO it would have resulted in a far better outcomes for everyone involved, but even if things had gone wrong then the Scottish Government/SNP would not have been to blame. But they made two political decisions (attempting to win votes) regarding these ferries and as such they should be held entirely accountable.

Doing so would still have been a political decision. Just a political decision that the outcome of the tender process was to be prioritised ahead of protecting Scottish jobs and businesses.

Neither is necessarily a bad decision. And there are ways to build the 'protecting Scottish jobs and businesses' bit into the tender process in a way that's fair to other bidders, but doing that is also a political decision.

 

[Noddy]

They chose a fuel that supported emissions reduction. Sticking with pure diesel wasn't a viable option, and the need to bring LNG up from England by road was recognised when the choice was made.

At the time that was made, it was (perhaps naively) hoped that there would be other ships using LNG coming along shortly thereafter, making supply easier - but that wasn't an essential component. I've seen much bigger ships receive fuel from road tankers!

But only one type of emissions. They didn’t seem to care about the other emissions that directly impact peoples health.

Doing so would still have been a political decision. Just a political decision that the outcome of the tender process was to be prioritised ahead of protecting Scottish jobs and businesses.

Neither is necessarily a bad decision. And there are ways to build the 'protecting Scottish jobs and businesses' bit into the tender process in a way that's fair to other bidders, but doing that is also a political decision.

Even if I were to accept that premise, which generally I don’t (my belief is the more governments meddle in these types of decisions generally the worse the outcome-Ferguson went bankrupt, suppliers lost money, and folk and businesses across the Hebrides have suffered for years due to an increasingly unreliable service), the point I am making is it was entirely decisions made by government/SNP ministers that led to this so as a result they should be held entirely responsible and accountable. If they’d chosen to issue a tender and accepted the results, it would not be fair to blame them.

 

[Blindtraveler]

We could go on with this for ages and pages worth of posts. Big question is what do we all think is going to happen on Monday? Will she be able to sail and perhaps more cynically how long will it be until she breaks down?