GNER MK3 LHCS?

[alexl92]

Hi,
My local model shop has a pair of what look to be MK3 LHCS coaches in GNER livery, in N gauge - both coaches have buffers.

I wasn't aware that GNER had every operated a MK3a set - can anyone set the record straight on that?

Thanks!

 

[43096]

Hi,
My local model shop has a pair of what look to be MK3 LHCS coaches in GNER livery, in N gauge - both coaches have buffers.

I wasn't aware that GNER had every operated a MK3a set - can anyone set the record straight on that?

Thanks!

You are correct, GNER only ever operated HST Mark 3 stock. Sea Containers did own some sleepers at one point for possible conversion to HST stock, but this never happened and the coaches were disposed of (they took HST trailers off lease from Virgin XC instead).

 

[fgwrich]

Hi,
My local model shop has a pair of what look to be MK3 LHCS coaches in GNER livery, in N gauge - both coaches have buffers.

I wasn't aware that GNER had every operated a MK3a set - can anyone set the record straight on that?

Thanks!

There certainly wasn’t any LHCS or Mk3A’s in the GNER fleet. Being N Gauge though, these sound like the rather old Graham Farish models, who pretty much tooled up a Mk3 one size it’s all type model - allowing them to print a different number on the sides depending on if they wanted it to be a HST or Loco Hauled Mk3.

Although we’ve moved on and models are a lot more accurate these days, that sort of thing still happens with some manufacturers, eg Hornby and Dapol still do it - Dapols recently released HST featuring an RFM masquerading as a 402/404 HST buffet.

 

[alexl92]

Makes sense, thank you!

 

[hexagon789]

Hi,
My local model shop has a pair of what look to be MK3 LHCS coaches in GNER livery, in N gauge - both coaches have buffers.

I wasn't aware that GNER had every operated a MK3a set - can anyone set the record straight on that?

Thanks!

They didn't, its like Hornby who used to mould buffers on HST trailers as well. At least these days the buffer moulding slides off.

 

[Neptune]

IIRC NatEx had plans to introduce a small amount of mk3 loco hauled rakes when they took over the ICEC franchise hauled by class 90’s. I think they also had plans to introduce a few 180’s for the Lincoln service too.

 

[hexagon789]

IIRC NatEx had plans to introduce a small amount of mk3 loco hauled rakes when they took over the ICEC franchise hauled by class 90’s. I think they also had plans to introduce a few 180’s for the Lincoln service too.

Four sets which would free up 4 HSTs from Leeds/York which were going to run new Lincoln services.

That plan fell through so 180s were going to be leased instead.

 

[Neptune]

Four sets which would free up 4 HSTs from Leeds/York which were going to run new Lincoln services.

That plan fell through so 180s were going to be leased instead.

Yes that’s it. I remember there were big plans for the Lincoln service back then but then the recession hit.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes that’s it. I remember there were big plans for the Lincoln service back then but then the recession hit.

Exactly, it killed the Lincoln plans and ultimately it killed NXEC...

 

[Neptune]

… and ultimately it killed NXEC...

Every cloud….

 

[AC47461]

They didn't, its like Hornby who used to mould buffers on HST trailers as well. At least these days the buffer moulding slides off.

Certainly when they first made them, Farish used to supply all their Mk3s with detachable buffers, stuck inside the plastic tray the coach sat in. They initially only made HST numbered vehicles but you could add the buffers if you wanted to use them a LHCS. I think, once they actually started making Mk3s in LHCS liveries, the buffers were pre fitted. I have some Scotrail liveried ones and the little sticky patch is missing on the tray. I only have a couple of later coaches (clear bodies with much better livery printing) and the buffers are still removable.

 

[hexagon789]

Every cloud….

Well true, they were never as good as GNER in their earlier years.

Certainly when they first made them, Farish used to supply all their Mk3s with detachable buffers, stuck inside the plastic tray the coach sat in. They initially only made HST numbered vehicles but you could add the buffers if you wanted to use them a LHCS. I think, once they actually started making Mk3s in LHCS liveries, the buffers were pre fitted. I have some Scotrail liveried ones and the little sticky patch is missing on the tray. I only have a couple of later coaches (clear bodies with much better livery printing) and the buffers are still removable.

The older Hornby tooling had fixed buffers, I think the removeable ones only came in with the most recent re-tooling of a few years ago.

 

[AC47461]

The older Hornby tooling had fixed buffers, I think the removeable ones only came in with the most recent re-tooling of a few years ago.

Do you remember the original Hornby Mk3s made shorter with only 7 windows so they would go round tight 'train set' curves better?

 

[hexagon789]

Do you remember the original Hornby Mk3s made shorter with only 7 windows so they would go round tight 'train set' curves better?

I'm well aware of them, but I've never had any - thankfully...

 

[NoOnesFool]

This stems back to Project 225: The Introduction of the Intercity 225 in the late 1980s. A small number of HST Class 43 power cars were fitted with buffers to work with Class 91 vehicles and test their operation before the Mark 4 Rakes were introduced to complete the product of the Intercity 225.

 

[skyhigh]

This stems back to Project 225: The Introduction of the Intercity 225 in the late 1980s. A small number of HST Class 43 power cars were fitted with buffers to work with Class 91 vehicles and test their operation before the Mark 4 Rakes were introduced to complete the product of the Intercity 225.

How many mk3 LHCS vehicles received buffers as part of that?

 

[hexagon789]

How many mk3 LHCS vehicles received buffers as part of that?

None. They already have buffers!

As for HST trailers a handful of TGS received drophead buckeyes and conventional buffing and drawgear at the outer end, another handful received only drophead buckeyes. It was later decided that no modifications were really needed, as the 91 buckeye is compatible with the HST Alliance couplers and they decided just to use that and rely on a coupling adaptor for the very rare occasions the buckeye couldn't be used.

 

[skyhigh]

None. They already have buffers!

That's what I was getting at

 

[hexagon789]

That's what I was getting at

Sorry!

 

[43096]

Four sets which would free up 4 HSTs from Leeds/York which were going to run new Lincoln services.

That plan fell through so 180s were going to be leased instead.

The Mark 3s involved were as follows, and they were taken on lease by NXEC.
RFM: 10231/240/253/259
FO: 11006/007/011/018/026/040
TSO: 12008/017/022/029/036/045/047/054/059/063/065/083/087/092/094/095/101/124/134/139/142/144/156/158/160/163
DVT: 82111/124/125/140

Whilst there was an imbalance between first class and standard class, that's actually largely irrelevant as they would in all likelihood have received the "Mallard" refurbishment and some standards would have become firsts. Traction would have been by DB Cargo Class 90s.

As for HST trailers a handful of TGS received drophead buckeyes and conventional buffing and drawgear at the outer end, another handful received only drophead buckeyes. It was later decided that no modifications were really needed, as the 91 buckeye is compatible with the HST Alliance couplers and they decided just to use that and rely on a coupling adaptor for the very rare occasions the buckeye couldn't be used.

The most important modification to the TGS vehicles was fitting RCH jumper cables and an interface to the HST 36-way from the RCH cable so that the TDM system could pass signals between the power car and the 91.

 

[Davester50]

You are correct, GNER only ever operated HST Mark 3 stock. Sea Containers did own some sleepers at one point for possible conversion to HST stock, but this never happened and the coaches were disposed of (they took HST trailers off lease from Virgin XC instead).

Not my photo, but a rare one of said cars, 10661 after conversion.

Mk3 10661 Wolverton Works 3 October 2009 by DMC1947, on Flickr

 

[y3j]

Hi,
My local model shop has a pair of what look to be MK3 LHCS coaches in GNER livery, in N gauge - both coaches have buffers.

I wasn't aware that GNER had every operated a MK3a set - can anyone set the record straight on that?

Thanks!

The pics I've seen of the GF GNER Mk3's suggest they're Mk3b's, not a's. Single square air vent on the vestibules instead of the snail shells.

 

[43096]

Not my photo, but a rare one of said cars, 10661 after conversion.

Mk3 10661 Wolverton Works 3 October 2009 by DMC1947, on Flickr

I don't think that was actually one of the GNER cars. 10661 was a demonstrator converted at Wolverton, presumably the GNER livery was for a visit from GNER management to view it! Interesting photo though.

The 10 vehicles earmarked for GNER were 10664/667/669/676/677/681/694/695/698/721 and they were acquired by Angel (not Sea Containers as I said earlier) to be inserted into HST sets EC51-60. Those 10 sleepers were bought back from DSB in Denmark.

 

[hexagon789]

Whilst there was an imbalance between first class and standard class, that's actually largely irrelevant as they would in all likelihood have received the "Mallard" refurbishment and some standards would have become firsts. Traction would have been by DB Cargo Class 90s

If you converted two TSO to FO, that would leave 24, exactly enough for 6 per four sets. Seems like that would've been the plan then: DVT-2FO-RFM-6TSO

 

[Helvellyn]

If you converted two TSO to FO, that would leave 24, exactly enough for 6 per four sets. Seems like that would've been the plan then: DVT-2FO-RFM-6TSO

Or if a Mallard style conversion (given intended use on York/Leeds services intermingled with Mark 4s) - DVT-FO-FO-FOD-RSM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO

 

[hexagon789]

Or if a Mallard style conversion (given intended use on York/Leeds services intermingled with Mark 4s) - DVT-FO-FO-FOD-RSM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO

Good point, that's probably more likely