Go North East

[kez19]

Hexham was historically United territory and originally ran the 334, now 685, in its entirety from there and from Carlisle. The long period of joint operation started when United's Carlisle depot was transferred to Ribble in 1969. Arriva sold Hexham depot to GNE in 2010 but kept its share of the 685, with its operation transferring to Jesmond depot.

Asking this as an outsider you mention that GNE own the Hexham depot, does Stagecoach have a depot there (or there abouts) or does Stagecoach operate 685 end to end?

 

[34D]

Asking this as an outsider you mention that GNE own the Hexham depot, does Stagecoach have a depot there (or there abouts) or does Stagecoach operate 685 end to end?

Isn't it both Slatyford and Carlisle who do it?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Asking this as an outsider you mention that GNE own the Hexham depot, does Stagecoach have a depot there (or there abouts) or does Stagecoach operate 685 end to end?

Stagecoach operate their traditional boards from Carlisle, and the former Arriva boards from Slatyford depot in Newcastle (which is about 20 miles away)

 

[kez19]

Stagecoach operate their traditional boards from Carlisle, and the former Arriva boards from Slatyford depot in Newcastle (which is about 20 miles away)

Thanks for the information, just looked at where that depot is I had in my mind the depot in Byker (as thats the only one of theirs I have seen on visits).

 

[DunsBus]

Stagecoach operate their traditional boards from Carlisle, and the former Arriva boards from Slatyford depot in Newcastle (which is about 20 miles away)

One board did flip from Arriva to Stagecoach, IIRC.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

One board did flip from Arriva to Stagecoach, IIRC.

It did but I wanted to keep it simple.

 

[Bristol LHS]

The Go North West strike lasted roughly 12 weeks but they covered services with subcontracted operators.
Is that the practice that is now banned - not that there's much alternative up here in terms of other operators (hence the effectiveness and damage of the strike across the region)

I seem to remember in the early 90s Go Ahead Northend strike, other operators did cover some routes. I certainly remember OK Travel buses on the 194/294 corridor from Washington, and I think Redby covered some routes in Sunderland too. Of course, both those operators since swallowed up by GNE.

 

[DunsBus]

I seem to remember in the early 90s Go Ahead Northend strike, other operators did cover some routes. I certainly remember OK Travel buses on the 194/294 corridor from Washington, and I think Redby covered some routes in Sunderland too. Of course, both those operators since swallowed up by GNE.

Busways covered the 135/136 Hylton circulars, which had been a joint TWPTE and Northern operation until the November 1981 service rationalisation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm more surprised that GNE haven't tried to run a skeleton service on it using the staff who they are using to cover some of the routes in North Tyneside, though I believe these may be agency drivers who were already route learned on those routes prior to strike action.

The North East Buses forum suggests those agency drivers were recruited for those specific routes, which is why those routes- and only those routes- are running. They can’t be redeployed.

It is illegal to use agency staff to replace striking staff- the High Court re-affirmed this in August.

To be clear, that was illegal and the operators involved are lucky that there appears to have been minimal repercussion.

Indeed. The Tories’ subsequent unlawful legislation probably helped them get away with it.

If it goes to an indefinite strike, you’d hope Arriva show some operational and commercial noise and step up.

Arriva don’t have enough drivers for their own operations. If they’ve got any sense they’ll stay in their own lane.

As for the dispute, if Go have any desire to actually resolve the dispute they’d do well by locking Ben Maxfield in a cupboard for the next couple of weeks.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Busways covered the 135/136 Hylton circulars, which had been a joint TWPTE and Northern operation until the November 1981 service rationalisation.

IIRC, I think that Caldaire drafted up three VRs to Richmond/Darlington depots to release 3 United VRs to cover 722/723 boards during the 1991 strike.

Also, Arriva Northumbria managers were used to drive NMS vehicles on 722/723 when Durham depot went on strike in 1998, as an aside.

 

[jkkne]

As for the dispute, if Go have any desire to actually resolve the dispute they’d do well by locking Ben Maxfield in a cupboard for the next couple of weeks.

I can't work out if he's the fall guy or not but the statements and memos I've seen that he has signed off are mind blowing to me - he's either being paid to tow the line and a promise of a move within Go Ahead or he's incompetent.

Further update from GNE this morning

Update on Industrial Action

www.gonortheast.co.uk

It is extremely disappointing to confirm that Unite has planned a further indefinite period of strike action, commencing Saturday 28 October 2023.

We are currently working on plans for services we will be able to operate during this period of strike. We expect that contract school bus services will still operate, and all other services will be reviewed as the situation develops.

We recognise that this will mean significant disruption to our customers and communities throughout the region, despite a generous pay offer being tabled. Go North East will continue to do all we can to resolve this dispute as quickly as possible.

We will keep our customers and stakeholders updated as talks progress and we apologise for the inconvenience Unite’s strike will cause.

 

[DanNCL]

Services in Chester-le-Street were noticeably quieter this afternoon than they usually would be on Saturdays. These strikes are already driving people into their cars not to return. The indefinite strike if it goes ahead will cause even more irreversible damage.

 

[M60lad]

Is it true that some buses are for some reason after the strikes at the wrong depots and thus some services are seeing some odd workings?

 

[bobslack1982]

Services in Chester-le-Street were noticeably quieter this afternoon than they usually would be on Saturdays. These strikes are already driving people into their cars not to return. The indefinite strike if it goes ahead will cause even more irreversible damage.

Perhaps if GNE paid their drivers properly and didn’t destroy their terms and conditions then the strike wouldn’t be happening at all.

 

[DanNCL]

Perhaps if GNE paid their drivers properly and didn’t destroy their terms and conditions then the strike wouldn’t be happening at all.

I sympathise with the drivers I really do, however an indefinite strike isn’t the way to go about seeking a resolution.
Indefinite strike = fewer passengers long term = frequency cuts on commercial routes = redundancies.

And we’re not exactly seeing any effort from either side to resolve the dispute. GNE management are doing photo ops in Manchester instead of going to the negotiating table, and Unite walked out of the last set out talks.

Neither side of the dispute is being open or honest with the public. And it would do both sides of the dispute some good to remember that without the public GNE wouldn’t have a business and the drivers wouldn’t have jobs. Right now GNE are making Arriva of all companies look good, and Unite are making the RMT and ASLEF look incredibly good.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I sympathise with the drivers I really do, however an indefinite strike isn’t the way to go about seeking a resolution.

So what is the solution?

They did ad-hoc strikes and Ben Maxfield told them to go away.

They did a week-long strike and Ben Maxfield slagged them off in a staff briefing, then told them to go away.

We’ve seen it with Arriva in Yorkshire and in Merseyside that bus bosses’ tactics now are not to budge until there’s an indefinite strike. On top of that Nigel Featham- to industrial relations what Donald Trump is to international diplomacy- has always been a manager who enjoys the brinksmanship and sees the staff as a commodity to be exploited.

GNE can afford to pay their MD a piffling £186,000 a year, but there’s no money for bus drivers to get more than National Minimum Wage. Aye right.

 

[DanNCL]

So what is the solution?

They did ad-hoc strikes and Ben Maxfield told them to go away.

They did a week-long strike and Ben Maxfield slagged them off in a staff briefing, then told them to go away.

We’ve seen it with Arriva in Yorkshire and in Merseyside that bus bosses’ tactics now are not to budge until there’s an indefinite strike. On top of that Nigel Featham- to industrial relations what Donald Trump is to international diplomacy- has always been a manager who enjoys the brinksmanship and sees the staff as a commodity to be exploited.

GNE can afford to pay their MD a piffling £186,000 a year, but there’s no money for bus drivers to get more than NMW. Aye right.

I made my views of GNE management very clear in my post. I don’t agree with Featham or Maxfield but no amount of moaning by any of us is going to get them removed from post.

You don’t seem to understand my point about the long term irreversible damage caused by the strikes. It’s not GNE management that lose out, Featham will get his £186k pay packet regardless what happens, it’s the drivers who lose out as commercial routes cease to be viable, get cut and drivers get made redundant. This isn’t the railway, it’s a heck of a lot easier for GNE to make staff redundant than it is for the DFT controlled TOCs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You don’t seem to understand my point about the long term irreversible damage caused by the strikes.

I do understand your point, but I disagree with it. The idea that a strike will permanently destroy a market leading to mass redundancies is just management fearmongering. “Accept these poverty wages or you won’t have a job at all”.

The fact is that GNE don’t have enough drivers as it is, and haven’t for years, because not enough people will do the job for poverty wages. The GNE network was in meltdown for most of 2022 due to staff shortages caused by poverty wages. That will have done more long-term damage to the bus market.

People also seem to focus on the strike rather than the years of disgruntlement that leads to the strike in the first place. Staff will only strike when all other avenues have gone. GNE have historically always paid terrible wages, playing depots off against each other. Drivers and mechanics have left in their droves, either to other operators or the HGV industry.

Resolving the factors that have caused the strike should be important for management because GNE’s staff churn should be their biggest concern. They’re not going to have any staff left soon enough, not when you can earn as much shelf-stacking in Tesco.

 

[bobslack1982]

I made my views of GNE management very clear in my post. I don’t agree with Featham or Maxfield but no amount of moaning by any of us is going to get them removed from post.

You don’t seem to understand my point about the long term irreversible damage caused by the strikes. It’s not GNE management that lose out, Featham will get his £186k pay packet regardless what happens, it’s the drivers who lose out as commercial routes cease to be viable, get cut and drivers get made redundant. This isn’t the railway, it’s a heck of a lot easier for GNE to make staff redundant than it is for the DFT controlled TOCs.

I’ve rarely seen such a cackhanded defence of terrible working conditions.

GNE are the lowest paid drivers in the north east and the derisory offer made doesn’t actually improve on that.

Drivers won’t be made redundant when they can’t even fulfil their routes now. And if GNE started to withdraw routes then Arriva and Stagecoach would take over.

 

[DanNCL]

I do understand your point, but I disagree with it. The idea that a strike will permanently destroy a market leading to mass redundancies is just management fearmongering. “Accept these poverty wages or you won’t have a job at all”.

The fact is that GNE don’t have enough drivers as it is, and haven’t for years, because not enough people will do the job for poverty wages. The GNE network was in meltdown for most of 2022 due to staff shortages caused by poverty wages. That will have done more long-term damage to the bus market.

People also seem to focus on the strike rather than the years of disgruntlement that leads to the strike in the first place. Staff will only strike when all other avenues have gone. GNE have historically always paid terrible wages, playing depots off against each other. Drivers and mechanics have left in their droves, either to other operators or the HGV industry.

Resolving the factors that have caused the strike should be important for management because GNE’s staff churn should be their biggest concern. They’re not going to have any staff left soon enough, not when you can earn as much shelf-stacking in Tesco.

That’s absolutely not what I’ve said. At no point have I said they shouldn’t be taking any action at all. I’ve said that an indefinite strike isn’t the way to do it as it’ll cause more harm than good.

A potentially three month long strike - people will adapt to live without the bus during that time and a significant number of them won’t return to the bus if/when the dispute is resolved as they’ll have found their new transport, usually the private car, to be both more convenient and cheaper.

I’m as angry as anyone else is about the pay, it’s appalling. But an indefinite strike won’t change anything. As you’ve said yourself, Featham is like Trump, he does not care.

I’ve rarely seen such a cackhanded defence of terrible working conditions.

GNE are the lowest paid drivers in the north east and the derisory offer made doesn’t actually improve on that.

Drivers won’t be made redundant when they can’t even fulfil their routes now. And if GNE started to withdraw routes then Arriva and Stagecoach would take over.

I’m not defending the working conditions. I support what Unite and the unions are campaigning for, what I don’t support is an indefinite strike that in the long term will cause more harm than good.

I really wouldn’t underestimate Featham’s willingness to make redundancies even when there isn’t any slack. He does not care about the employees and no amount of strike action will change that. He does not care about the customers and no amount of strike action will change that. All he’s interested in is money.
And whilst Stagecoach and Arriva would step in if GNE pulled the plug there’d be no guarantee that the drivers would get new jobs with Stagecoach or Arriva.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’ve said that an indefinite strike isn’t the way to do it as it’ll cause more harm than good

Ad-hoc strikes haven’t worked, though. They’ve started with ad-hoc strikes, then a week-long strike, and…nothing.

We saw with Arriva in both Yorkshire and Merseyside that an indefinite strike was the only way to force the employer to negotiate. It cranks up the political pressure when school buses and hospital buses aren’t running for weeks on end. And it cranks up the financial pressure- no revenue, no profit.

 

[DanNCL]

Ad-hoc strikes haven’t worked, though. They’ve started with ad-hoc strikes, then a week-long strike, and…nothing.

We saw with Arriva in both Yorkshire and Merseyside that an indefinite strike was the only way to force the employer to negotiate. It cranks up the political pressure when school buses and hospital buses aren’t running for weeks on end. And it cranks up the financial pressure- no revenue, no profit.

There haven’t been any ad hoc strikes. There have been two one week strikes, both in the last month, and that’s it. And it’s worth noting that Unite are just as unwilling to go to the negotiating table as GNE are. Until both sides are willing to go to the negotiating table there will be no deal!

 

[Tetchytyke]

And it’s worth noting that Unite are just as unwilling to go to the negotiating table as GNE are.

That’s the official management line, yes.

In reality, however, Unite have said what they want and, in response, Ben Maxfield just issued a stroppy all-staff memo accusing Unite of lying.

Worth noting that Trent Barton have just agreed a 20% pay rise for engineering staff without any of this nonsense.

 

[DanNCL]

That’s the official management line, yes.

In reality, however, Unite have said what they want and, in response, Ben Maxfield just issued a stroppy all-staff memo.

Worth noting that Trent Barton have just agreed a 20% pay rise for engineering staff without any of this nonsense.

That’s not just the official management line that’s also what Unite themselves have said behind closed doors to at least one local councillor that I’ve spoken to in the last few days. I know better than to believe anything said by GNE management until it’s been independently verified as GNE management have a habit of lying through their teeth.

I’ll remind you again, I am not disagreeing that they should be getting a pay offer to match at the very least what GNW are getting, if not better. The Trent Barton deal would be excellent if offered by GNE, but I think you know as well as I do that there’s virtually zero chance of that happening here even if the indefinite strike did turn out to be successful.

And if the indefinite strike isn’t successful what’s the backup plan? GNE are free to sack the drivers if the indefinite strike goes on more than 12 weeks, so if this dispute isn’t resolved in that time, which it’s unlikely to be, what does Unite do, tell the drivers to go back to work as if nothing has happened and then they’ve been on strike and brought the region to a halt for nothing?

 

[Tetchytyke]

And if the indefinite strike isn’t successful what’s the backup plan? GNE are free to sack the drivers if the indefinite strike goes on more than 12 weeks

GNE don’t have enough staff, sacking them is certainly an option but not one that would help them very much. New drivers take a while to train, same with the engineering staff, and that’s if you can attract anyone to work for these wages. Recent recruitment history suggests not.

If it doesn’t work then who knows. The point of an indefinite strike is to bring about political pressure. It’s a shame that Nexus failed with franchising tbh.

 

[Snex]

I made my views of GNE management very clear in my post. I don’t agree with Featham or Maxfield but no amount of moaning by any of us is going to get them removed from post.

You don’t seem to understand my point about the long term irreversible damage caused by the strikes. It’s not GNE management that lose out, Featham will get his £186k pay packet regardless what happens, it’s the drivers who lose out as commercial routes cease to be viable, get cut and drivers get made redundant. This isn’t the railway, it’s a heck of a lot easier for GNE to make staff redundant than it is for the DFT controlled TOCs.

Redundancies might be appealing to some drivers. If you've worked there for 20 year or so. Get a nice pay off, walk into your nearest Arriva or Stagecoach depot the next day and get a new job or alternatively retire.

It's not the end of the world when there's shortages at every depot in the North East. Stagecoach Slatyford are currently offering a £1,000 package to join there (https://uk.talent.com/view?id=ce08c...m_source=google_jobs_apply&utm_medium=organic), for example.

 

[Megafuss]

I seem to recall David Brown stepping back from Go Ahead at the time the previous management at GNE seemed to go totally pear shaped.

Now his successor is leaving the group at a time when Go North East is still pear shaped. GNE could really do with a period of calm, steady leadership. But they aren't going to get it.

I can only see things getting worse in the foreseeable future.

 

[bobslack1982]

That’s absolutely not what I’ve said. At no point have I said they shouldn’t be taking any action at all. I’ve said that an indefinite strike isn’t the way to do it as it’ll cause more harm than good.

A potentially three month long strike - people will adapt to live without the bus during that time and a significant number of them won’t return to the bus if/when the dispute is resolved as they’ll have found their new transport, usually the private car, to be both more convenient and cheaper.

I’m as angry as anyone else is about the pay, it’s appalling. But an indefinite strike won’t change anything. As you’ve said yourself, Featham is like Trump, he does not care.


I’m not defending the working conditions. I support what Unite and the unions are campaigning for, what I don’t support is an indefinite strike that in the long term will cause more harm than good.

I really wouldn’t underestimate Featham’s willingness to make redundancies even when there isn’t any slack. He does not care about the employees and no amount of strike action will change that. He does not care about the customers and no amount of strike action will change that. All he’s interested in is money.
And whilst Stagecoach and Arriva would step in if GNE pulled the plug there’d be no guarantee that the drivers would get new jobs with Stagecoach or Arriva.

Stagecoach have a driver shortage as does Arriva. As does every other bus company.

Furthermore both of those companies offer higher pay and welcome bonuses for new drivers.

That’s not just the official management line that’s also what Unite themselves have said behind closed doors to at least one local councillor that I’ve spoken to in the last few days. I know better than to believe anything said by GNE management until it’s been independently verified as GNE management have a habit of lying through their teeth.

I’ll remind you again, I am not disagreeing that they should be getting a pay offer to match at the very least what GNW are getting, if not better. The Trent Barton deal would be excellent if offered by GNE, but I think you know as well as I do that there’s virtually zero chance of that happening here even if the indefinite strike did turn out to be successful.

And if the indefinite strike isn’t successful what’s the backup plan? GNE are free to sack the drivers if the indefinite strike goes on more than 12 weeks, so if this dispute isn’t resolved in that time, which it’s unlikely to be, what does Unite do, tell the drivers to go back to work as if nothing has happened and then they’ve been on strike and brought the region to a halt for nothing?

Wrong. They can only be potentially dismissed if the employer has tried to bring an end to the strike after that time and tried to settle it. There is no onus on the employees to do that.

Furthermore the union has already put an offer to GNE that GNE has rejected. Therefore any problems are entirely down to the company.

 

[cnjb8]

I seem to recall David Brown stepping back from Go Ahead at the time the previous management at GNE seemed to go totally pear shaped.

Now his successor is leaving the group at a time when Go North East is still pear shaped. GNE could really do with a period of calm, steady leadership. But they aren't going to get it.

I can only see things getting worse in the foreseeable future.

Maybe it would be better if Featham didn't manage both GNE and GNW.

 

[markymark2000]

Furthermore the union has already put an offer to GNE that GNE has rejected. Therefore any problems are entirely down to the company.

Can you explain why, when GNE 'offered Unite what they asked for, they changed their minds and said that they now wanted more', why was this offer not taken up? If GNE did actually offer what Unite asked for, why would Unite move the goalposts unless they were doing it for political gain. I will say, I do think that some unions are after political gain here. I am also all too aware that unless it's a secret ballot, many people can feel pressured into voting certain ways.

What is to say that there isn't pressure here on certain staff members who do not want to get caught up in Union bullying and so voting for strike when they heart actually says they don't want it.