GOT CAUGHT USING 11-15 OYSTER. HELP!!

[r4miii]

Currently the Feb half term, got caught using my siblings oyster 11-15 (Im 19, gap year & unemployed). The reason I did this is as I don’t personally have one as Im not eligible for a student one as im not at an institution yet and needed to go to the hospital. It was just a rash decision as I have also been scammed for 1.2k which is currently being investigated by my bank hence I didnt think of paying using my card. I also suffer from stress, anxiety and depression (Dr notes to prove this). The tfl guy took my details said a letter will be sent to me and I have the chance to appeal it and its up to them what they will do. Ive heard of people get court cases / have to pay fares or do community service. My sibling is 12 and had no knowledge of this.

I really want to avoid the court case as I want to study a healthcare course at uni next year. Does anyone have any advice i would really appreciate as I am panicking.
I am unemployed and am thinking to send my Dr notes to prove my issues with mental health, proof from my bank that I have been scammed… anything else I can do to make my case strong?

Any help would be appreciated thank you

 

[AlterEgo]

TfL will almost certainly prosecute you in the magistrates' court for the Bylaw offence - it's important to set expectations from the outset. They view this sort of crime very dimly; neither your mental health nor someone else committing bank fraud are defences and neither would really be mitigation.

TfL may audit the Oyster to see if there are suspicious patterns and ask to to comment on other offences, but as a rule they will write to you asking for your side of the story - all of this is admissible in court and you are best advised to ask on here once the letter arrives, for help in compiling a response that will avoid incriminating you further. There is nothing to stop you from pleading with TfL not to prosecute you, but be under no illusions that avoiding court for this sort of wilful fare evasion by abusing free passes is very unusual indeed.

if you are summonsed or issued a Single Justice Procedure Notice, as is very likely, you will be asked to plead guilty or not guilty. The punishment from the court will be as follows:

- A fine based on your weekly income (normally discounted by a third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards the train company’s costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

 

[r4miii]

TfL will almost certainly prosecute you in the magistrates' court for the Bylaw offence - it's important to set expectations from the outset. They view this sort of crime very dimly; neither your mental health nor someone else committing bank fraud are defences and neither would really be mitigation.

TfL may audit the Oyster to see if there are suspicious patterns and ask to to comment on other offences, but as a rule they will write to you asking for your side of the story - all of this is admissible in court and you are best advised to ask on here once the letter arrives, for help in compiling a response that will avoid incriminating you further. There is nothing to stop you from pleading with TfL not to prosecute you, but be under no illusions that avoiding court for this sort of wilful fare evasion by abusing free passes is very unusual indeed.

if you are summonsed or issued a Single Justice Procedure Notice, as is very likely, you will be asked to plead guilty or not guilty. The punishment from the court will be as follows:

- A fine based on your weekly income (normally discounted by a third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards the train company’s costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

Tbh theres no excuse at all for this, but being scammed is the reason why i prompted to use it. I just got off the phone from tfl they said the court this isnt true so im confused because everyone this has happened to keeps mentioning court and fines from 600-1k.

I called twice and both times they said the same thing.
1. you get no letter so you just got a warning
2. you get a letter asking for a £20 fare.
3. either you get a bigger fare so £40 or YOU ONLY COURT but this is only if u dont pay the £20 in time.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

 

[skyhigh]

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

As @AlterEgo says, they do prosecute in the vast majority of cases. You're not going to get out of this by paying £20 or £40.

but being scammed is the reason why i prompted to use it.

Simply, TfL won't care about that. It's not a defence and it's not really mitigation either.

All you can really do now is wait for them to write to you and come back here when the letter arrives.

 

[AlterEgo]

Tbh theres no excuse at all for this, but being scammed is the reason why i prompted to use it. I just got off the phone from tfl they said the court this isnt true so im confused because everyone this has happened to keeps mentioning court and fines from 600-1k.

I called twice and both times they said the same thing.
1. you get no letter so you just got a warning
2. you get a letter asking for a £20 fare.
3. either you get a bigger fare so £40 or YOU ONLY COURT but this is only if u dont pay the £20 in time.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I think it was unwise for you to call TfL; you are the subject of a criminal investigation, and it sounds like you were talking to someone who doesn't know what they were talking about anyway on a general helpline.

The Penalty Fare (which does NOT apply here anyway) is £80, and reduced to £40 upon prompt payment, and is given for genuine mistakes - not this type of offence. You haven't been Penalty Fared; you would know if you had, because they would have to have issued it at the time.

You can browse the forum to see how TfL deals with Freedom Pass abuse and other high value free passes like the 11-15 Oyster - they are dealt with as Bylaw offences in the magistrates' court.

 

[r4miii]

I think it was unwise for you to call TfL; you are the subject of a criminal investigation, and it sounds like you were talking to someone who doesn't know what they were talking about anyway on a general helpline.

The Penalty Fare (which does NOT apply here anyway) is £80, and reduced to £40 upon prompt payment, and is given for genuine mistakes - not this type of offence. You haven't been Penalty Fared; you would know if you had, because they would have to have issued it at the time.

You can browse the forum to see how TfL deals with Freedom Pass abuse and other high value free passes like the 11-15 Oyster - they are dealt with as Bylaw offences in the magistrates' court.

really? but everyone else who got fined seems to say you will get a letter later about it. not that you get it there and then. those who had to pay a fine got it via letter.

ik gwr let you know there and then, and if you bump trains.

how can someone make a GENUINE mistake by taking someones oyster by the way?
what can i do? im looking to study a healthcare course at uni will it affect me? what actually happens in court.

also this was confirmed by 2 tfl individuals, i will call again and ask right now.
thanks

 

[r4miii]

As @AlterEgo says, they do prosecute in the vast majority of cases. You're not going to get out of this by paying £20 or £40.


Simply, TfL won't care about that. It's not a defence and it's not really mitigation either.

All you can really do now is wait for them to write to you and come back here when the letter arrives.

dang so im going to court basically

 

[skyhigh]

dang so im going to court basically

It's not guaranteed but is likely.

 

[WesternLancer]

dang so im going to court basically

You need to wait to hear from them in writing, as suggested above, then when you do it will be clearer what course of action they are likely to take or what they want to hear from you about it. When you receive paperwork (almost certainly in hard copy) - you can head back here and ask for advice on what is the best thing for you to do next.

At this stage all you can do from this point onwards is make sure you buy the correct ticket for every journey you take.

It's best not to spend time worrying about this now if you can avoid that, put it to the back of your mind until you hear from them. But when you do, do not ignore it. That is the time to head back here and ask what your best next steps are.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I really want to avoid the court case as I want to study a healthcare course at uni next year.

On this point, have a look at the website for the appropriate regulator. It's certainly the case for the Nursing and Midwifery Council that it's not an absolute bar: see for example https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/:

Assessing the seriousness of convictions and cautions​

If the criminal offending was directly linked to the nurse, midwife or nursing associate’s professional practice, it’s very likely this would be serious enough to affect their fitness to practise.

(...)

If the criminal offending took place in the nurse, midwife or nursing associate’s private life, and there’s no clear risk to patients or members of the public, then it is unlikely that we’ll need to take regulatory action to uphold confidence in nurses, midwives or nursing associates, or professional standards.

We’d only need to do that if the nurse, midwife or nursing associate was given a custodial sentence (this includes suspended sentences), or the conviction was for a specified offence.
(...)

And the Health & Care Professions Council say at https://www.hcpc-uk.org/education/r...character-issues/applicants-with-convictions/

(...)
The types of convictions which might result in an applicant not being allowed to Register or usually relate to offences of a sexual nature, violence or dishonesty.

We will consider rejecting an application for registration, or removing someone from the Register if already registered, if they are convicted of a criminal offence or accept a police caution that involves one of the following types of behaviour:

• Violence
• Abuse
• Sexual misconduct
• Supplying drugs illegally
• Child pornography
• Offences involving dishonesty
• Offences for which you received a prison sentence

Of course, using someone else's Oyster is dishonest, but you would need to discuss with your university and any employer whether that was serious enough to block you from training and working.


So try not to panic - a conviction for fare dodging may not ruin your career plans.

 

[r4miii]

You need to wait to hear from them in writing, as suggested above, then when you do it will be clearer what course of action they are likely to take or what they want to hear from you about it. When you receive paperwork (almost certainly in hard copy) - you can head back here and ask for advice on what is the best thing for you to do next.

At this stage all you can do from this point onwards is make sure you buy the correct ticket from every journey you take.

It's best not to spend time worrying about this now if you can avoid that, put it to the back of your mind until you hear from them. But when you do, do not ignore it. That is the time to head back here and ask what your best next steps are.

thank you so much for your help pal.

sorry i was just stressing.

UPDATE:
tfl customer service said the £20 sounds too good to be true with tbh it did to me also, but he said the first two steps is only either a warning or a fine. the fine can be however much they want to charge, but he agreed that its more than likely it will be more than £20.

he said you only go to court if you dont pay the fine.

but the card will either be blacklisted or given a warning.

It's not guaranteed but is likely.

basically the 3rd guy gave more info he said it aint gonna be £20 but u only go court if you refuse to pay the fine. the fine can be any amount. what do u think abt this

On this point, have a look at the website for the appropriate regulator. It's certainly the case for the Nursing and Midwifery Council that it's not an absolute bar: see for example https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/:



And the Health & Care Professions Council say at https://www.hcpc-uk.org/education/r...character-issues/applicants-with-convictions/



Of course, using someone else's Oyster is dishonest, but you would need to discuss with your university and any employer whether that was serious enough to block you from training and working.


So try not to panic - a conviction for fare dodging may not ruin your career plans.

thanks. i will look into this.
apparently a court case is only for extreme cases

 

[TheJester]

Is this the first time you have done this or have you done it before? TFL will likely look for similar journey patterns indicating possible further misuse.

 

[r4miii]

Is this the first time you have done this or have you done it before? TFL will likely look for similar journey patterns indicating possible further misuse.

wdym similar journey patternssss. that doesnt make sense cause cant the person whos oyster it is be making the same travels i.e my sibling goes for religious classes every weekend. they cant accuse it of being me can they???

 

[AlterEgo]

really? but everyone else who got fined seems to say you will get a letter later about it.

That is correct, if you are reported for prosecution, as you have been, you get a letter later.

ik gwr let you know there and then, and if you bump trains.

They do, if they Penalty Fare you, or, they might report you for prosecution instead, and you get a letter later (perhaps in addition to what they call MG11 paperwork issued at the time)

how can someone make a GENUINE mistake by taking someones oyster by the way?

They can't; Penalty Fares are not issued for people who have committed the offence you have.

 

[Papyrus]

They assume that if the card shows historically multiple instances of the same starting station and destination as the journey they catch you on, it was likely to be you unless you can show evidence to the contrary.

They realise this burden would be reversed in court but they think people will agree to its imposition at the correspondence stage because they want a settlement and don’t even want to be prosecuted for the single offence they could prove in court without more.

 

[Snow1964]

wdym similar journey patternssss. that doesnt make sense cause cant the person whos oyster it is be making the same travels i.e my sibling goes for religious classes every weekend. they cant accuse it of being me can they???

They will be looking for regular use from same start and end location stations.

If the hospital was at a location your sibling doesn't go to it won't show as a regular use to this. The start station is probably near your home so won't tell them much.

Did they take the card that doesn't belong to you, in which case your sibling is going to have to report it as mislaid.

Getting stressed will not wash as an excuse, the logic is if don't like worry, don't risk breaking the rules and getting extra worry if caught.

 

[r4miii]

That is correct, if you are reported for prosecution, as you have been, you get a letter later.


They do, if they Penalty Fare you, or, they might report you for prosecution instead, and you get a letter later (perhaps in addition to what they call MG11 paperwork issued at the time)


They can't; Penalty Fares are not issued for people who have committed the offence you have.

so who would be getting a penalty fare. i was told that if you go court you will most likely pay a fare anyways

They assume that if the card shows historically multiple instances of the same starting station and destination as the journey they catch you on, it was likely to be you unless you can show evidence to the contrary.

They realise this burden would be reversed in court but they think people will agree to its imposition at the correspondence stage because they want a settlement and don’t even want to be prosecuted for the single offence they could prove in court without more.

but its the nearest train station to us?

btw wdym about the second paragraph

 

[AlterEgo]

so who would be getting a penalty fare.

People who have made genuine mistakes, like forgetting to tap in, or not carrying a railcard perhaps. TfL do not offer Penalty Fares for wanton abuse of 11-15 Oyster cards.

i was told that if you go court you will most likely pay a fare anyways

You will need to pay, on conviction:

- A fine based on your weekly income (normally discounted by a third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards the train company’s costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

 

[r4miii]

They will be looking for regular use from same start and end location stations.

If the hospital was at a location your sibling doesn't go to it won't show as a regular use to this. The start station is probably near your home so won't tell them much.

Did they take the card that doesn't belong to you, in which case your sibling is going to have to report it as mislaid.

Getting stressed will not wash as an excuse, the logic is if don't like worry, don't risk breaking the rules and getting extra worry if caught.

oh where i was going today my sibling never has, so would this be an issue for me? plus i never actually got to the location i just tapped in at the start point of my journey thats where i got caught.

Yes they took the card, my sibling starts school soon so i wanted to order a new oyster but idk if theres a point since will it be blacklisted or what

People who have made genuine mistakes, like forgetting to tap in, or not carrying a railcard perhaps. TfL do not offer Penalty Fares for wanton abuse of 11-15 Oyster cards.


You will need to pay, on conviction:

- A fine based on your weekly income (normally discounted by a third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards the train company’s costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

really? but what im confusef about is ive read on threads here and on reddit and on tiktok people have been saying they did the same thing but they did it on purpose to pay lower for the train and they didnt go court

 

[Starmill]

The only thing you can realistically do here is try to get enough money together to pay what you're ordered.

It may be worth your while in trying to submit mitigation, but this will be limited to pleading guilty and along with that offering your apologies and regrets: saying that you understand why what you did was wrong and that you won't now do it again. There is no guarantee of success.

If your financial means are so limited that you cannot immediately afford to pay the amount ordered, you will be able to ask the Court to pay in instalments. Again there's no guarantee of success there, so clear evidence of your income and cash / assets will be useful to have together.

 

[r4miii]

The only thing you can realistically do here is try to get enough money together to pay what you're ordered.

It may be worth your while in trying to submit mitigation, but this will be limited to pleading guilty and along with that offering your apologies and regrets: saying that you understand why what you did was wrong and that you won't now do it again. There is no guarantee of success.

yh i hope its just a fine. turns out i wont get my £1200 back either

 

[Starmill]

really? but what im confusef about is ive read on threads here and on reddit and on tiktok people have been saying they did the same thing but they did it on purpose to pay lower for the train and they didnt go court

Unfortunately the decision on whether prosecution against you begins or not is out of your hands. Other people accused will close the matter successfully by not admitting any liability but paying to make the proceedings go away.

You're free to ask for this too, if you really want to. It's commonly known as an 'out of court settlement'. But it's not your decision and you don't have leverage.

yh i hope its just a fine. turns out i wont get my £1200 back either

There will be a number of elements including a fine and it will all be added up into one big bill. You pay it and then that's it, you'll never hear anything about it again unless you need to go through a criminal record check in the near future.

 

[FenMan]

oh where i was going today my sibling never has, so would this be an issue for me? plus i never actually got to the location i just tapped in at the start point of my journey thats where i got caught.

Yes they took the card, my sibling starts school soon so i wanted to order a new oyster but idk if theres a point since will it be blacklisted or what


really? but what im confusef about is ive read on threads here and on reddit and on tiktok people have been saying they did the same thing but they did it on purpose to pay lower for the train and they didnt go court

With apologies for the personal question, but this relevant. Your sister is a child - are you responsible for her? Or are other adults (parents/guardians etc) responsible for her? If the answer is the latter then you must tell them what has happened straightaway. The reason is, I fail to see how you could arrange with TfL for a replacement Oyster card to be issued to her, so they will find out sooner or later.

 

[r4miii]

With apologies for the personal question, but this relevant. Your sister is a child - are you responsible for her? Or are other adults (parents/guardians etc) responsible for her? If the answer is the latter then you must tell them what has happened straightaway. The reason is, I fail to see how you could arrange with TfL for a replacement Oyster card to be issued to her, so they will find out sooner or later.

they said i have to order a new one. confused cause everyone is telling me something different.

im just worried about the court thing and that she wont get to travel again, im such an idiot i shouldve just not gone in

 

[skyhigh]

UPDATE:
tfl customer service said the £20 sounds too good to be true with tbh it did to me also, but he said the first two steps is only either a warning or a fine. the fine can be however much they want to charge, but he agreed that its more than likely it will be more than £20.

he said you only go to court if you dont pay the fine.

but the card will either be blacklisted or given a warning.

Firstly, stop ringing. Wait for them to contact you, do not contact them.

They don't know the process, they clearly don't know what's going to happen so there's no point asking and anything you say may be recorded and used against you.

From the cases on here, the majority will go to court unless there are strong mitigating reasons, and you've not given any here. As advised before wait for them to contact you and then come back here for advice on what to do from there.

 

[TheJester]

Also try to stop relating the money you have been scammed out of, with any penalty you are likely to have to pay.
They are two completely unrelated things.

 

[Brissle Girl]

really? but what im confusef about is ive read on threads here and on reddit and on tiktok people have been saying they did the same thing but they did it on purpose to pay lower for the train and they didnt go court

I’m not sure I would use Reddit or TikTok to get advice for your current situation.

And as for any cases you’ve read on here which haven’t resulted in a prosecution, they will usually not be cases where TfL is involved, as it takesa very hard line on evasion of this type, and prosecution is almost inevitable. (The national rail operators will usually make an out of court settlement if you engage with them politely, albeit at a hefty cost.)

 

[r4miii]

yh im just so stressed and worried ngl. sm is going on.
idk i asked tfl to put me thru to the person i can speak to regarding this and it was the penalty team or something.
idek what would count as mitigating circumstances in this case.

i hope its just a fare, otherwise idrk what im gonna do lmao.
just so happens to be the one time i have no other choice but to use it i get caught.

i just dont get ppl who do it voluntarily to get free or discounted travel some of them had to pay a fare so idk

Also try to stop relating the money you have been scammed out of, with any penalty you are likely to have to pay.
They are two completely unrelated things.

yes, but its the reason why i got the penalty

I’m not sure I would use Reddit or TikTok to get advice for your current situation.

And as for any cases you’ve read on here which haven’t resulted in a prosecution, they will usually not be cases where TfL is involved, as it takesa very hard line on evasion of this type, and prosecution is almost inevitable. (The national rail operators will usually make an out of court settlement if you engage with them politely, albeit at a hefty cost.)

ive looked at tfl and oyster related ones only. unless ppl have time to make stories idek anymore sigh.

from experience GWR are not as lenient so yep

 

[ikcdab]

To be honest, your writing is almost unintelligible to me. If this is how spoke on the phone, then no wonder you got the wrong answers.
The the fact that you were scammed is not the reason you got the penalty fare. The reason you have been stopped is because you used a card your weren't entitled to. You need to stop linking the two as it won't help you.

 

[notmyrealname]

I think sadly some of us aren't fluent in text speak. I'm one.