GatwickDepress
Established Member
Reading this thread makes me so glad walk up ticket from Hastings to London only have route restrictions, not operator restrictions...
Indeed. Even if legally correct (which is questionable), it would seem very harsh if someone with a Thameslink-only ticket got on a train which was clearly Thameslink branded and was subsequently penalised on the grounds that it wasn't a Thameslink service!
However, this is straying off topic...
Your right they wouldn't because how could one say a Thameslink only ticket wouldn't be valid on a train branded Thameslink.It would be interesting to see this tested in a proper court of law, rather than by a rail industry "fine"
I rather doubt that a Judge or a jury would find in favour of the railway industry if someone used a "Thameslink only" ticket on a train that was clearly branded "thameslink"
Your right they wouldn't because how could one say a Thameslink only ticket wouldn't be valid on a train branded Thameslink.
Would be like saying you can't board this flight because your airline ticket is for this flight.
So far, of course, all the 'legal' arguments in this thread have concerned interpretations of Condition 10. However Condition 12 states:
12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used.
Of course, that is normally taken to refer to ticket restriction codes, but the way the Condition is phrased, it doesn't restrict it to such. The enforcement of tickets to a sub-set of a TOCs trains is entirely legal through this Condition (otherwise, for example, off-peak tickets would be unenforceable).
What you mean is branded train not service. After all a Thameslink branded service doesn't go to Victoria. A Thameslink branded train might but it's not the same thing in my opinion, hence my comments as that is why I thought was meant.But that's exactly the situation we have now. Thameslink crews are driving Thameslink services from Brighton using borrowed Southern-branded stock. Joe Tourist has no idea whether to believe the CIS board that says Thameslink or the side of the train that says Southern.
That said, the four "brands" are being operated as separate directorates, with only some of the back office functions having been merged last month. So I can understand the company's position that it should be business as usual on the front line. But clearly it's not, and it's the customers and front-line staff that suffer as a result.
What you mean is branded train. Nit service. After all a Thameslink branded service doesn't go to Victoria. A Thameslink branded train might but it's not the same thing in my opinion, hence my comments as that is why I thought was meant.
Yes, but is it reasonable to expect an occasional rail user to know that a "thameslink only" ticket CAN NOT be used on a thameslink train if it is going to Victoria, but can be used to other London terminals.
The whole thing is a farce and reinforces the widely held view that train travel is expensive, and hugely complicated, and that some of the complexities are actually designed to extract "fines" from the unwary.
To be able to extract "fines" from those who have purchased a ticket but failed to understand the subtle difference between a thameslink branded TRAIN and a thameslink branded SERVICE is ridiculous and verging on dishonest.
Not certain that I much fancy a "Nit service" though, no matter whose nits they may be
I've corrected my typo. Should have been not and not nit.
I don't think it's reasonable either. However there are laws in other countries that I don't think are reasonable but they are still laws that exist in those countries. I choose not to travel to those countries.
A court might decide it's unfair for someone to know it's a Southern service but what if someone did know it was a Southern services and boarded it. Then what does that mean?
One solution would be to stop using Southern or Thameslink trains on each others services. They didn't before July so why can't they carry on just the same as before? Do Govia want there Vale a d eat it?
NRCOC said:the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies
So does that mean a Victoria service in Thameslink livery is both a Southern service and Thameslink service at the same time? Is that possible?For those discussing the distinction between a train branded with a TOC's livery vs a service run by a TOC, Condition 10 says:
Note that it restricts by the trains of a TOC, not the services of a TOC.
Southern did/does this with Gatwick Express.
So does that mean a Victoria service in Thameslink livery is both a Southern service and Thameslink service at the same time? Is that possible?
The only thing I can think of is those who hold Megatrains tickets. The trains are not called that but don't the tickets refer to it?
Of course it's confusing. Intentional or otherwise the situation is confusing.Did they? I don't recall that ever been the case.
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This is rather confusing.
Southern is a term that needs to be removed, it's a branding / stock diagram at best. Gatwick Express is a diagram that runs from Victoria to Gatwick non-stop with Thameslink (red) class 442s.
It's a Thameslink service using Thameslink (blue) rolling stock. Yes, it runs on what was traditionally a Southern / Connex SouthCentral, but that's pre-August thinking.
To be fair to Govia Thameslink, they are cheaper than some other companies surrounding them. Doesn't mean the service is as good of course.The problem is that Govia/Southern/Whatever don't give a flying **** about passengers. We're just an irritating inconvenience to running their big train set and they'll extract as much cash as they can from us whilst doing it.
As for needing more time to sort things out - utter rubbish. The July merger was known well in advance and if they wanted to do something they could have done it in July.
It was the same with updating TVMs for new Annual Gold Card rules this year - they didn't, until complained at. Again, the changes were known about well in advance.
Strange though isn't it that when ticket prices go up, the infrastructure seems to be ready with the new prices as the clock strikes midnight?
To be fair to Govia Thameslink, they are cheaper than some other companies surrounding them. Doesn't mean the service is as good of course.
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May I add some fuel to the fire in the form of three photos I've just taken at Gatwick Airport as a 19.05 timed service left platform 1 for Victoria only.
So it's a Southern coaches forming a Gatwick Express. Note only a few Gatwick Express services depart from platform 1 during peak rush hour or shoulder peak. Normally it's stopping Southern services fro London Bridge or Victoria or sometimes First Great Western Reading services, which mainly use platform 2. Gatwick Expresses usually depart from platform 5 and 6. In fact the one after is from platform 6. I can see the logic in using platform 1 if it works operationally.
But what if some got into platform 1 and seeing that train assume it would stop at East Croydon or perhaps even Redhill. Southern services from platform 1 go to Redhill after all and East Croydon. OK it's their fault for not looking at the screens but the coaches don't help. What's to say some people go partly on rolling stock, especially if they are in a hurry; tried from a long flight or stressed after flight etc.
I know the railways do what they can to try to stop people running. Could they do what they can to try and stop people boarding the wrong train. I don't think k this is it though.
Still the alternative would have been a cancelled train no doubt, unless every evening the 19.05 is formed of Southern coaches.
The coaches are leased by Govia Thameslink Railway and are forming a GTR service on their Gatwick Express route despite the branding on the coaches being of Southern route branding. This is unsurprising as it's all the same train operating company and when stock displacement occurs I expect the company to use any available stock.So it's a Southern coaches forming a Gatwick Express.
For such an understandable mistake, I would expect GTR to allow them to travel back from Victoria at no extra charge and would be very surprised if that was not done.But what if some got into platform 1 and seeing that train assume it would stop at East Croydon or perhaps even Redhill.
I've recently been on a service from Victoria to Brighton (with a few stops included) that was a true Southern service and they were using Gat Ex stock for it. What if someone had a "Not Gatwick Express" ticket? This was NOT one of the Gat Ex that extends to Brighton btw. It is normally operated using the usual Southern stock.
Strange though isn't it that when ticket prices go up, the infrastructure seems to be ready with the new prices as the clock strikes midnight?
442s are used on both Gatwick Express and Brighton Express routes (plus a small number of services to Eastbourne).I've recently been on a service from Victoria to Brighton (with a few stops included) that was a true Southern service and they were using Gat Ex stock for it. What if someone had a "Not Gatwick Express" ticket? This was NOT one of the Gat Ex that extends to Brighton btw. It is normally operated using the usual Southern stock.
442s are used on both Gatwick Express and Brighton Express routes (plus a small number of services to Eastbourne).
The original branding was "Gatwick Express" but this was changed to simply "Express" to reflect the fact that the train company - then Southern and now Govia Thameslink Railway - operated both routes with that stock, and also to avoid the scenario where people saw the word "Gatwick" on the train and assumed that the train would call at Gatwick, only go through non-stop!
Govia Thameslink Railway (and, before that, Southern Railway) lease 24 x 5 car Class 442 "Express" units to run both their Southern branded Brighton Express route and their Gatwick Express route (as well as a very small number of additional services to & from Eastbourne under their Southern brand).So is a train branded 'Express' considered to be a GTR train? Does it come under the sub brand 'southern' or the sub brand 'gatwick express'?
I agree with your last point.The coaches are leased by Govia Thameslink Railway and are forming a GTR service on their Gatwick Express route despite the branding on the coaches being of Southern route branding. This is unsurprising as it's all the same train operating company and when stock displacement occurs I expect the company to use any available stock.
What is surprising is the claim that these brands are separate companies. Clearly, to anyone who is even the slightest bit familiar with the term "company" this is not the case!
For such an understandable mistake, I would expect GTR to allow them to travel back from Victoria at no extra charge and would be very surprised if that was not done.
The Thameslink branded trains doesn't have Guards, and several of the Southern ones don't either. Guards cannot issue Penalty Fares. No-one is going to be "told off" for not issuing a Penalty Fare.I agree with your last point.
Does anyone know what is the official advice to staff on passengers who board a train branded Thameslink when it's Southern or the other way round?
If I was a guard I may be tempted to say that I need to issue this penalty fare because I am required to do so by my superiors but if you appeal you will be refunded or let off. It would depend on whether I'd be likely to get told off for not issuing such a penalty charge notice. If I wouldn't then I'd let the matter go.
I forgot that part so it wouldn't matter.The Thameslink branded trains doesn't have Guards, and several of the Southern ones don't either. Guards cannot issue Penalty Fares. No-one is going to be "told off" for not issuing a Penalty Fare.