Grand Central 180's

[Hydro]

I travelled pass on a GC 180 on Tuesday, and thought I would share some random thoughts that popped into my head, namely I couldn't stop comparing it to a Voyager (obviously it's equivalent).

Basically I thought it was streets ahead of the Voyager. The 180 was quieter, less vibrations through the seat. When stationary, the engine doesn't rattle and throb, just hums. The interior seems better, bags of room under and between seats for luggage, there's no pervasive disinfectant smell creeping through from a toilet. It's quieter on the outside also.

What was annoying was the tables. They really need securing to the wall at the top. There came a point when the engines revved up where the frequency was such to cause pretty severe lateral movement of the table, fixed as they are through the bottom of those struts to the floor and lower wall area. If I had deigned to use those brilliant desktop chess/Cluedo/Monopoly boards my pieces would have been all over the shop. Brakes are very loud at low speeds too, something about not using the hydrodynamic brake?


Very impressed. So what if they have a tendency to catch fire, I'd take one over a Voyager any day.

 

[asylumxl]

Everyone loves spontaneously combusting 180s. They truly are "Hellfire".

 

[sprinterguy]

I travelled pass on a GC 180 on Tuesday, and thought I would share some random thoughts that popped into my head, namely I couldn't stop comparing it to a Voyager (obviously it's equivalent).

Basically I thought it was streets ahead of the Voyager. The 180 was quieter, less vibrations through the seat. When stationary, the engine doesn't rattle and throb, just hums. The interior seems better, bags of room under and between seats for luggage, there's no pervasive disinfectant smell creeping through from a toilet. It's quieter on the outside also.

What was annoying was the tables. They really need securing to the wall at the top. There came a point when the engines revved up where the frequency was such to cause pretty severe lateral movement of the table, fixed as they are through the bottom of those struts to the floor and lower wall area. If I had deigned to use those brilliant desktop chess/Cluedo/Monopoly boards my pieces would have been all over the shop. Brakes are very loud at low speeds too, something about not using the hydrodynamic brake?


Very impressed. So what if they have a tendency to catch fire, I'd take one over a Voyager any day.

I completely agree with everything you’ve said. At the risk of simply parroting your opinions, the Adelantes are far superior to the comparable Voyagers in terms of comfort. The interior reminds me of the much coveted mark 3 carriage: Seating is largely bays of four matched to the length of the windows, which strike me as being very similar dimensions wise to those in a mark three. Even if there was more airline seating, then the fact that the windows are quite long means there’d still be a good chance of having a half decent seat to window alignment match. The seats themselves are comfortable, and there seems to be a greater amount of soundproofing around the engine that means that engine noise in the passenger saloon is kept to a minimum: No rattling and rumbling, just a hum. The one slightly daft thing is, as you say, the tables not been fastened to the wall at the top.

I lament the fact that the Adelantes proved to be so catastrophically unreliable, basically precluding any hope of follow on orders a few years back. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter how pleasant the passenger environment is when the trains are absolute turkeys mechanically. Though if Crosscountry had ordered a squadron fleet of these instead of Voyagers in the same formations, I doubt I would have been best pleased with being packed into a four carriage Adelante any more than I am when being packed onto a four carriage Voyager. If the Adelantes had proved themselves, I would have loved to have seen a fleet of nine carriage trains built to replace HSTs on the GWML, though it probably wouldn’t have ever happened anyway.

 

[jopsuk]

If they hadn't been so unrelaible, they would certainly have been ideal on the fast Oxford and Cotswold services- which was what they were originally for anyway, wasn't it?

 

[sprinterguy]

If they hadn't been so unrelaible, they would certainly have been ideal on the fast Oxford and Cotswold services- which was what they were originally for anyway, wasn't it?

Originally, they were ordered for First North Westerns’ open access Rochdale/Blackpool to London Euston “open access” services, where they could have been maintained alongside the 175s at the purpose built maintenance facility at Chester, which might have done them a lot of good in terms of reliability if they had had some attention from Alstom lavished on them at the start.

But they were moved across to FGW before building was complete, so yes, by the time they were ready for service they were destined for the Oxford and Cotswolds services, which they suited superbly IMO. It’s a real shame that FGW did away with them (Although good for me as their current duties allow me to travel on them much more).

 

[tbtc]

if Crosscountry had ordered a squadron fleet of these instead of Voyagers in the same formations, I doubt I would have been best pleased with being packed into a four carriage Adelante any more than I am when being packed onto a four carriage Voyager

This comment said the most to me.

The 180s are pleasant machines to travel on, no doubt about that. However the "novelty" factor of such a small class and the fact that they tend to operate much quieter services seems to account for some of the people who prefer them over Voyagers.

I hope many of the anti-Voyager crowd can appreciate that an eight/nine/ten coach Voyager would have attracted many fewer complaints than the half-sized versions which we ended up with. Give people a seat and suddenly they stop complaining about windows lining up with seats etc.

Alstom really missed a golden opportunity with the 180s. If they had built proven reliable trains then they could have won the order for MML's twenty three 170 replacement (which became an order for 222s), the sixty DMUs for TPE (which became an order for 185s)... Arriva were planning on using four car 180s on their TPE bid (I have a copy of the promotional material, so am not being fanciful to suggest it). Add on a handful more for the HT order to replace 170s (again, an order which went to Bombardier for 222s)... all adds up.

If those orders had been completed then there'd have been around a hundred 180s (compared to 34x 220 and 44x 221), making the Adelante the default long distance DMU (in the way that the Turbostar became the default short/middle distance DMU). This would make the 180 a logical starting point for HST replacement (before electrification became the answer) or for routes like Glasgow/Edinburgh - Aberdeen or Nottingham - Cardiff or...

Another "what if", dating back to the days when TOCs took risks and didn't need DFT to spoon-feed them new trains (see the "pre Hatfield" thread for details)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally, they were ordered for First North Westerns’ open access Rochdale/Blackpool to London Euston “open access” services

I do wonder about this. Fourteen units seems a lot for a handful of services a day from Lancashire to London. Even allowing for slower journey times, a unit could easily do a couple of return journeys a day from Blackpool/Rochdale to London, so were all fourteen really going to be used for these duties? Seems a massive amount of trains for just that (plus NWT were ordering the 175s before for the Holyhead/ Blackpool - Manchester services, so the 180s presumably weren't for these?)

 

[222meridianfan]

I think Grand Central are a very good operator, they just need to sort the class 180's out and then i would say they are the best operator out there!

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I was reading in this months RM that FGW might be re-introducing the Cl180s on Oxford/Cotswold service?

 

[route:oxford]

I would have loved to have seen a fleet of nine carriage trains built to replace HSTs on the GWML, though it probably wouldn’t have ever happened anyway.

Or even the ECML.

Perhaps with a fleet of 67s regeared for 100mph operations for hauling (or pushing) the stock from Edinburgh to Inverness/Aberdeen.

 

[TomJ93]

Although i'm a (not-so-secretive) voyager fan, I do like the 180s, especially the MKIII-esque luggage rack placement. I haven't tried the seats though they do look comfy!

 

[Masboroughlad]

......the sixty DMUs for TPE (which became an order for 185s)... Arriva were planning on using four car 180s on their TPE bid (I have a copy of the promotional material, so am not being fanciful to suggest it).

I can vaguely recall that Arriva TP bid. Wish I'd saved my literature. It was very innovative if I remember correctly? Did they want to re-open Woodhead?! You got any spare copies?!

Back to the thread. It's a pity the 180s weren't the default intercity DMU (and also all of that early TOC innovation didn't come to much). I like the 175s and 180s much better than any of the other new DMUs.

 

[tbtc]

I can vaguely recall that Arriva TP bid. Wish I'd saved my literature. It was very innovative if I remember correctly? Did they want to re-open Woodhead?! You got any spare copies?!

Back to the thread. It's a pity the 180s weren't the default intercity DMU (and also all of that early TOC innovation didn't come to much). I like the 175s and 180s much better than any of the other new DMUs.

I may have a copy in the cellar, but have no scanner at the moment, I may see about taking a few pictures of it...

There were various interesting ideas which Arriva had, including Guide Bridge Parkway by the M60 (for both the Huddersfield line and the Woodhead one), I think there were direct trains from Sheffield to Blackpool too...

I get strangely nostalgic for the "not so distant past", like the optimistic times when TOCs were speculating/ investing/ dreaming (and not just being spoon fed cascaded 150s by DFT)...

Alstom really missed a golden opportunity with these trains.

 

[Tufty]

I have to agree with the OP. I found the first class experiance to London from Halifax most enjoyable. Large comfy adjustable seats, Wi-Fi, electric to charge up my iphone and a fabulous service from all the train crew. You can hardly hear the engines in first class, it's only when the vestubule doors open that the realise you are on a DMU, that you can hear the engines. A very slight hick up at Wakefield with the doors but the 125mph running from Donny onwards made up for it and two mins early at the Cross. Highly
recommended. You just got to do it.

 

[RobShipway]

This comment said the most to me.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I do wonder about this. Fourteen units seems a lot for a handful of services a day from Lancashire to London. Even allowing for slower journey times, a unit could easily do a couple of return journeys a day from Blackpool/Rochdale to London, so were all fourteen really going to be used for these duties? Seems a massive amount of trains for just that (plus NWT were ordering the 175s before for the Holyhead/ Blackpool - Manchester services, so the 180s presumably weren't for these?)

I thought at the time there as speculation that as well as doing the Blackpool/Rochdale services from Euston that FNW would take over the Euston to Holyhead services as well?

 

[Masboroughlad]

I get strangely nostalgic for the "not so distant past", like the optimistic times when TOCs were speculating/ investing/ dreaming (and not just being spoon fed cascaded 150s by DFT)...

Me too. There was so much innovation in the early days. I bet private operators weren't expecting to have their wings clipped like they did.

Still think the NWT London services could have been made to work, as could Virgin's Op Princess.

 

[jopsuk]

I think the private operators were also hoping to be able to make rather more money without relying on subsidy than they do now; it seems right that with massive subsidy comes interference.

 

[BOSCH]

They're rather nice to drive as well believe me

 

[junglejames]

175s and 180s are brilliant. Quiet and comfy. Seem to be built rather well. Well, accept for the reliability problems on the 180s.
The 170s, 175s and 180s are the only post privatisation DMUs that I really do like.

 

[WestCoast]

The 180s are the best looking modern DMU around - no questions asked. Apart from their obvious reliability problems, they are good machines, but I don't find them all that comfy in standard class though. The FirstGroup interior doesn't live up to the glamour that Grand Central promises.

 

[jon0844]

HT and GC have made the 180s look great on the outside with excellent liveries. It's always nice to see one coming through.

 

[Adam_Harrison]

Would be nice to see grand central do a proper refurb of them and not just clean it and stick gc logos on it..

 

[BOSCH]

Would be nice to see grand central do a proper refurb of them and not just clean it and stick gc logos on it..

Its coming soon,interior refurb,the FGW interior will be going believe me

 

[Adam_Harrison]

Its coming soon,interior refurb,the FGW interior will be going believe me

Nice ! any idea what it will look like? oh and what happened to the MK3 interior refurb...? didn't gc say they would do something to that during MTU engines being fitted?

 

[junglejames]

Nice ! any idea what it will look like? oh and what happened to the MK3 interior refurb...? didn't gc say they would do something to that during MTU engines being fitted?

Arent some being done?
I thought i heard the last 2 powercars to be reengined took a rake of coaches up to Brush Barclay, Kilmarnock first before heading to Loughborough.

 

[Adam_Harrison]

the MK3s look the same inside as they did before they got the new livery, which is dissapointing

 

[junglejames]

the MK3s look the same inside as they did before they got the new livery, which is dissapointing

Is that all the refurb was? A repaint?

To be honest, apart from looking a little tatty in places, their Mk3s are lovely. So not sure id want much of a refurb.

 

[cj_1985]

Is that all the refurb was? A repaint?

To be honest, apart from looking a little tatty in places, their Mk3s are lovely. So not sure id want much of a refurb.

i think there was more to it that just the exterior repaint... i seem to recall reading that they had had work done in the vestibules and iirc there was also mention of SDO being fitted...

 

[MCR247]

They also got a deep clean IIRC

 

[142094]

Can't remember the last time I saw a HST on a revenue service with GC.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

was on one yesterday afternoon...