Grand Central declining service quality

[HSTEd]

So do GC have to leave someone there? Is it permitted to leave unattended trains with their engines running?

Isn't that traditional railway practice?

It is certainly common in America.

 

[43301]

Isn't that traditional railway practice?

It is certainly common in America.

On depot is one thing, as there will be staff around keeping an eye on things. A closed and unstaffed station in the middleof a city is a bit different though!

 

[E16 Cyclist]

That's interesting. I thought there was a rule that all diesel trains had to be shut down on arrival at Kings Cross and only re-started about 5-10 minutes before departure time? Certainly, pre-Covid, the Grand Central units would be shut-down during their turnrounds. Perhaps they're no longer confident that they'll be able to re-start these days!

There may well be a exemption in hot weather to allow air conditioning to work

 

[43066]

So do GC have to leave someone there? Is it permitted to leave unattended trains with their engines running?

Yes. Why wouldn’t it be?

It’s *generally* not permissible to leave trains unattended on non dead end running lines (but that is subject to local exceptions, mostly at through stations where many trains terminate eg Nottingham). Perhaps you’re thinking of that?

 

[ainsworth74]

They still do. Hopefully a combination of skipping Pontefract, TRU and electrifying Hare Park Junction to Ravensthorpe could mean that some form of Battery Electric multiple unit can be used on the Bradford Interchange to London services.

Some of them still do....including the 10 22 from Bradford, which I use quite frequently.

I stand corrected! Must have gotten my wires crossed somewhere down the line!

 

[Brooke]

The answer is found in one simple word. Arriva.

Chiltern isn't what it was either, XC is dire and I don't think I ever experienced one of their bus operations I would call good. And while DaFT Northern isn't perfect, it is better than it was under that shower.

As a marketeer, I believe we have our answer.

It seems Arriva is being run a shoe-string to maximise the profitability of the business in the short term, and with complete disregard for its long term potential or value.

A more strategic way to think would be to invest in everything that the consumer (passenger) values, to build up the brand. This converts to loyalty, and to the ability to make profits for the long term…

Personally, I believe Arriva is flying into a sort of coffin corner, where they lose customers and also their ability to offset that with price rises. And at the same time, the cost of all the deferred investment comes home to roost…

 

[XAM2175]

It seems Arriva is being run a shoe-string to maximise the profitability of the business in the short term, and with complete disregard for its long term potential or value.
...
Personally, I believe Arriva is flying into a sort of coffin corner, where they lose customers and also their ability to offset that with price rises. And at the same time, the cost of all the deferred investment comes home to roost…

It's no secret that DB aren't really interested in keeping hold of Arriva. It would appear that they're happy that running it on a shoestring (and possibly even running it into the ground) is preferable to - or at least no worse than - maintaining its value to a potential future purchaser.

 

[driverd]

I don't get overly wound up about it - given how much literature, signage and stickers were put up at pretty much every establishement and public area, there's bound to be some lag. Just like anyone who has gone through a rebrand (or franchise change for that matter) and can find the old documentation / logo / signage still extant. It happens, and it's not a big deal for me.

But this isn't a big rebrand - it's 4 large stickers per carriage on a fleet of 10 units (8 1/2 if you deduct the out of service vehicles). That's 20 stickers per train, 100 across the company. It's not viable to say that, in the year since restrictions being lifted, they couldn't have instructed a cleaner/fitter/quality manager/other manager who happens to be available to remove said stickers - it'd take less than an hour per unit.

Then theres the taped off area that could quite literally be untaped...

To me, it's just lazy indifference.

However it does look unprofessional and can get confusing to people if its messaging; it's a good sign of how much attention a company pays to the finer details, which might filter through to other areas of the business if it's a cultural issue For instance a recent trip on Eurostar still had all the signage about masks being compulsory even though they weren't and the vast majority weren't wearing them anyway.

Which is the situation on GC and this lack of care and attention, I feel, is now (unfortunately) reflected right across the business.

I do have a friend who regularly travels between London-York travels on GC prefering it to a LNER 80x and has always had a good experience.

I'd rather take LNER now (which is a sad state of affairs as I used to much prefer GC). The main motivation is the unfriendly and generally unprofessional staff on GC (a trip a few months back was spent listening to the guards ipad as he sat in the taped off area, blaring music/videos out across the whole carriage - as fellow staff I wouldn't want them getting into trouble so wouldn't report but you get the level of professionalism). The GC units scruffyness and general atmosphere doesn't help.

 

[dk1]

I always find that non-railway employees have always found it odd that trains are left running constantly. Those of us who knew first gen DMUs found it abnormal to ever shut the darn things down. Only thing I find odd is that there would be nobody about at all as I would never leave a train at a remote location running when I’m booked to fully dispose it.

 

[modernrail]

If a train is set to idling what is it chucking out in emissions compared to not being set to idling? Sorry, I am sure my terminology is not great in that question?

All Arriva services do indeed seem to be hitting a state of general badness. Such a shame at Chiltern and GC really were pretty good at one point.

I wonder if the change to operating contracts will attract any new players to the market. I suspect foreign owned companies will stay away from bidding post-Covid with their own problems back home and I really would rather we did not have much more First or Arriva.

At what point can an open access operator have their service pulled if they are causing too many problems to passengers, other operators etc with a shoddy operation?

 

[endofthetunnel]

There is one,possibly two GC units which stable overnight in Bradford Interchange and they are left idling all night just for the reason that they might not be able to restart them the following morning

I don’t believe this is true actually.

From memory, the first service out of Bradford is 1A59, formed off 5A59 from Crofton around 5am. This often runs as a 10 car with the set for 1A70 left to sit at Bradford until that’s required a little later, but if not there is a daily path for 5A70 from Crofton Depot too.

This does differ on a Saturday night, when there is a set left at Bradford as there’s no route from Crofton through to Bradford in time after the usual TRU engineering works.

 

[Brooke]

It's no secret that DB aren't really interested in keeping hold of Arriva. It would appear that they're happy that running it on a shoestring (and possibly even running it into the ground) is preferable to - or at least no worse than - maintaining its value to a potential future purchaser.

Yes, it would seem, wouldn’t it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hasn’t there been a change at the top? Not sure if that has anything to do with it, mind.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course, the elephant in the room is that GC no longer have their HST's.

 

[357]

Why did they replace HSTs with 180s?

Their reliability and issues were well known by that point.

 

[Halish Railway]

Why did they replace HSTs with 180s?

Their reliability and issues were well known by that point.

It saved them going through the protracted process of replacing the slam doors on their coaches, as well as providing a more common and flexible fleet.

Also if an Adelante does fail it means that there or more of its class to rescue it (Unless the problem is a fused drivetrain as happened at Luton a few months ago, in that place the failed unit will be going nowhere ).

 

[fgwrich]

It's no secret that DB aren't really interested in keeping hold of Arriva. It would appear that they're happy that running it on a shoestring (and possibly even running it into the ground) is preferable to - or at least no worse than - maintaining its value to a potential future purchaser.

The problem is, is that DB have already tried to sell on Arriva at least twice, but to no avail. Now either that is because the price set was too high, or frankly, nobody wanted the basket case of Arriva’s remaining operations.

On that note it still makes me laugh a little when DB Arriva is bought up as one of those big bad foreign firms. While it’s owners are of course DB, the Arriva operations are still very much headquartered in Sunderland. And it’s well known that DB only wanted the German competing bits of Arriva, not the mostly awful UK operations that it is now saddled with.

 

[47271]

I gave up on them after they went over to all 180s, the vibration at speed is absolutely shocking, so I've no idea what they're service is like any more. If it's as bad as being made out in this thread then that's another reason to avoid them.

 

[D6130]

the vibration at speed is absolutely shocking,

To be fair, in my experience, that only applies to some units and not others. Of course it's the luck of the draw whether you get a 'vibrator' or not and some people must be unlucky and always get one. In general, though, it is becoming apparent that both mechanical and internal maintenance are suffering. For me the decline set-in when the first class carriages were refurbished with leather seats. I hate leather seats with a vengeance and now never travel first class on GC, even when offered a discretionary upgrade. Now that the standard seats have been 'upgraded' too, I find them a lot less comfortable.

 

[johntea]

They have their flaws but so do every other company, at the end of the day they'll get me from Pontefract (I find that call quite a useful link due to where I live) to London in a couple of hours, and although they do have a habit of breaking down en route they're usually pretty quick to sort out ticket acceptance with LNER in my experience

Their advance ticket pricing is very attractive too, £13.50 each way I think is their cheapest offering

 

[Kneedown]

That's interesting. I thought there was a rule that all diesel trains had to be shut down on arrival at Kings Cross and only re-started about 5-10 minutes before departure time? Certainly, pre-Covid, the Grand Central units would be shut-down during their turnrounds. Perhaps they're no longer confident that they'll be able to re-start these days!

What's the turnround time for GC at King's Cross?
On a 180 the engine will shut down automatically after 20mins without a key in, and the auxiliaries must then be tripped out to preserve battery charge. On reinstating the auxiliaries prior to engine start, any open passenger doors will close without warning, potentially causing injury to anyone caught in them. Thats why at Pancras, when engines are to be shut down, the Train Manager must do an ECS check, ensuring the train is empty before closing and locking the doors, so the next Driver can come and set the auxiliaries and start up safely.

 

[D6130]

What's the turnround time for GC at King's Cross?
On a 180 the engine will shut down automatically after 20mins without a key in, and the auxiliaries must then be tripped out to preserve battery charge. On reinstating the auxiliaries prior to engine start, any open passenger doors will close without warning, potentially causing injury to anyone caught in them. Thats why at Pancras, when engines are to be shut down, the Train Manager must do an ECS check, ensuring the train is empty before closing and locking the doors, so the next Driver can come and set the auxiliaries and start up safely.

Usually an hour or more. GC don't have any London-based crews and the Bradford or Sunderland crew who work into the Cross will normally work the same train out again - unless a unit swap is required to get a set to Crofton or Heaton for maintenance. Come to think of it, their crews normally take their PNB on board the train once the doors have been closed (I don't think they have a mess room at KGX) so, during warm weather like this, they will have to leave the engines running to maintain the air conditioning.

GC - Grand Central
PNB - Physical Needs Break (or - in Great Western Land - Grub, water and relief!)
KGX - London Kings Cross

 

[yorksrob]

They had some innovative offers in the past - weekend with cheap open returns for example, but have since fallen back to the industry standard of advance purchase or nothing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Believe me, if you travel on Lumo, you’ll learn Grand Central isn’t the least professional feeling operator out of Kings Cross…

Of course, the elephant in the room is that GC no longer have their HST's.

I thought we were talking about things Grand Central did wrong, not the rare times they made vast improvements.

 

[Nippy]

I used them recently, the only good thing was the non-stop run from York to Kings Cross.

I walked to the buffet to buy a couple of teas etc to be told I couldn't pay by card and had to order on the web. I walked back to my seat to order and pay on the web and then had to walk back through two coaches to collect my order.

The host seemed to be a bit surprised when I said that it was ridiculous I couldn't pay by card at the buffet counter.

As others have stated the 180s seem very shabby these days.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought we were talking about things Grand Central did wrong, not the rare times they made vast improvements.

Yes, getting rid of the HST's was a massive mistake and error.

I suspect we won't reach agreement on this point

 

[43301]

Yes, getting rid of the HST's was a massive mistake and error.

Indeed. And although the HSTs weren't particularly reliable in the early days they were fine once they'd had new engines fitted - much more reliable than 180s.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. And although the HSTs weren't particularly reliable in the early days they were fine once they'd had new engines fitted - much more reliable than 180s.

Much more comfortable as well !

 

[Parallel]

I usually find Grand Central good, but they have made the seats quite uncomfortable. The padding for the head rest is too low down, so it rests on your shoulders and encourages bad posture. They're only comfortable if you slouch a little, and because I'm quite tall, the non-priority seats don't really allow this.

 

[Kneedown]

Usually an hour or more. GC don't have any London-based crews and the Bradford or Sunderland crew who work into the Cross will normally work the same train out again - unless a unit swap is required to get a set to Crofton or Heaton for maintenance. Come to think of it, their crews normally take their PNB on board the train once the doors have been closed (I don't think they have a mess room at KGX) so, during warm weather like this, they will have to leave the engines running to maintain the air conditioning.

GC - Grand Central
PNB - Physical Needs Break (or - in Great Western Land - Grub, water and relief!)
KGX - London Kings Cross

If Kings Cross is a designated PNB point for GC crews then they should have access to the available mess facilities. If not, then it wants looking into. The train is not an acceptable PNB point, even if some do opt to do so.