Grand Central - how are they doing? Future plans?

[ainsworth74]

In your opinion Ainsworth, would that put passengers off if it terminated at Queen's Park, even though it would give Blackpool another direct train to the capital?

Dunno, I would assume they would advertise it as London (Queen's Park) or something like that, sort of like the Ryanair wheeze of 'serving' Paris using airports 50-100 miles away. That being said the Bakerloo is a decent line into Central London with plenty of interchanges available at places like Baker Street, Oxford Circus and Piccadilly Circus (as the last two being major destinations in their own right).

If the price is right I doubt it will put people off that much not getting into a proper London Terminal though the facilities at Queen's Park are a bit, er, spartan by comparison.

If it does, finally, get off the ground it will be interesting to see how they go after Crewe and Preston passengers as well as passengers at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley (assuming they can get the paths to call as again the rights on those are all contingent). I think they're going to need a very commercially aggressive pricing strategy to make this work. Something which, to be honest, they've been a bit lacklustre about over on the ECML recent years.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps they can do a deal with London Midland for a Tring > London Euston to call at Queens Park after the Grand Central has cleared out hahahah.

 

[lejog]

The problem with running 2x 180's on the Bradford route means that the rear five coaches won't be platformed at Mirfield and at Brighouse (not sure about Halifax or Kirkgate) as I have seen this happen in the past which meant the rear five coaches after Doncaster were for Bradford only not good if someone wants to bail out mid route. I don't suppose that the 180's could be reformed into a nine car unit which would mean using SDO on certain parts of the route, better than being stuck on the wrong unit.

SDO is already used. Only three coaches of the London bound service fit on the platform at Mirfield at the present, its only 77m long! The other platform along with the platforms at Brighouse and platform at Kirkgate are around 100m. Mirfield and Brighouse may get platforms lengthened for 6*23m trains under the new franchises.

 

[MylesHSG]

Is Queens Park even set yup for trains to terminate there? I know there are (unused) platforms already there, but VTWC and LM are passing through continually. Also where will they service and stable their rolling stock? Does Alstom have spare capacity at Wembley? They already look after Pendo's and the Sleeper.

 

[darloscott]

The Grand Central services north of York can certainly have some very heavy loads, to the point where they've got plenty standing, though a lot of this tends to be a day trip market to York, especially popular here in the North East as TPE services suffer from overcrowding from/to Middlesbrough also.

 

[Andyh82]

Trying to find a Grand Central member of staff at Kings Cross is more or less impossible (Is there really one there?).

They have half a person shared with Hull Trains do they not?

I have visions of someone walking around wearing half of each uniform sewed up the middle like those half/half football strips.

Talking about running 180s in multiple and expansion. They could run two together splitting at either Wakefield or Mirfield with one unit then going to Huddersfield. That's a market that is still getting a poor deal even when VTEC start serving the town with one train per day.

 

[anti-pacer]

That is what I said, yes.

But closer inspection reveals there is now a fare for Pontefract Monkhill to Doncaster But the point stands because there are none for anywhere else.

And at £8.80 for a single I'm not sure I would call it a bargain.

I wasn't disbelieving you Starmill, just the situation with that fare. It seems ludicrous, but there again, so does a lot of the UK's fare structure.

 

[Starmill]

It makes sense from the point of view that there is no requirement for a service to run from Pontefract to Doncaster other than changing at Wakefield. Grand Central have slightly normalised this situation by pricing a ticket valid only on their trains that costs slightly less than a Wakefield to Doncaster. But Doncaster to Pontefract cannot be a journey many people make...

 

[aiden_g1]

Grand Central seem to be holding their own quite well in terms of patrionage. Although i would tend to agree that they seem to have a higher percentage of VFR / Leisure customer base onboard.

In terms of passenger satisfaction and on time perfomance they keep acheiving the awards. I suppose bigger is not always better.

Fleet
By the end of this year the three HST sets will all be replaced by five Class 180s transferred from GWR. This will enabe GC to operate a single type standardised fleet. The additional units will enable GC to increase capacity on the busiest services by doubling up units and potentially introduce new or increased services in the future.

Routes
They are expected to commence operating services on the West Coast Main Line from London Euston to Blackpool North in 2018. Although no rolling stock has been confirmed for these services, Class 180s or new Pendolinos have been rumoured.

As already mentioned in this thread, GC also have plans for a future route between London Kings Cross and Cleethorpes. This is despite previous plans from a sister company being rejected.

Interiors
The Class 180s in my own opinion are decent intercity trains and work well on their current missions with GC. The standard accommodation interior is however looking tired compared to their Hull Trains counterparts. A spruce up with new seat covers, new carpet and LED lighting could help no end. The First class coach interiors are however in better condition after a more recent refresh.

 

[anti-pacer]

It makes sense from the point of view that there is no requirement for a service to run from Pontefract to Doncaster other than changing at Wakefield. Grand Central have slightly normalised this situation by pricing a ticket valid only on their trains that costs slightly less than a Wakefield to Doncaster. But Doncaster to Pontefract cannot be a journey many people make...

There is an Arriva bus service between the two which like a lot of services is indirect and serves the villages.

I think the main reasons not a lot of people use the train is because;

A) It's infrequent
B) GC is marketed more as a London service so I bet a lot of people are unaware it can be used to travel between the two.

That said, it takes 20-25 minutes by car between the two towns, which I'm sure is the most popular mode of transport.

It would be interesting to see what the usage figures are though.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The 07:08 TPE service from NCL-LIV (07:22 DHM, 07:38 DAR) is particularly busy. Being just 4 minutes behid the kilt yet by changing at YRK onto the GC, off peak tickets are valid bringing the cost of a london ticket down by a lot for just 4 mins difference...

Relations between GC and NXEC were very hostile. They improved significantly during DORs tenure of EC such to the point VTEC and GC enjoy a very cooperative setup and GC rescue VTECs rear end as much as GC are rescued by VTEC.TPE are also very accomodating with GC and often coopèrate on TPE routes.

 

[Starmill]

The Cleethorpes plan was only rejected because of the other things in it which ORR were unhappy with. They commented that they had made it clear that they would be minded to approve a London to Cleethorpes application.

Grand Central also applied to call at Peterborough on two Sunderland services. I wonder if they were granted that?

I'm pretty sure they were also awarded the rights to call at Low Moor when it opens?

And finally they applied to run a Monday - Saturday service from Wakefield Kirkgate to London Kings Cross at around 0500 and a return after 2145. These too were proposed to serve Peterborough.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

SDO is already used. Only three coaches of the London bound service fit on the platform at Mirfield at the present, its only 77m long! The other platform along with the platforms at Brighouse and platform at Kirkgate are around 100m. Mirfield and Brighouse may get platforms lengthened for 6*23m trains under the new franchises.

Mirfield needs lifts being installed too to bring it up to standard, as any disabled passengers would have to double back on themselves by going to Brighouse. At Brighouse any platform extending can easily be extended onto the old pre 1970 platforms which are still there, its just the edges that were removed. Speaking of which Pontefract Monkhill could also do with its platforms extending what with them being almost the same length as Mirfield and also a lift being installed.

 

[Master29]

They're always down as an `R` on the NRT and realtime trains so I guess they`re usually pretty full.

 

[43096]

Routes
They are expected to commence operating services on the West Coast Main Line from London Euston to Blackpool North in 2018. Although no rolling stock has been confirmed for these services, Class 180s or new Pendolinos have been rumoured.

If they start the Blackpool service in 2018 it won't be Pendolinos as no order has been placed.

 

[racklam]

I often get the early GC from York to London. Plenty seem to alight at York, and that train is always full and standing from York to London. The Sunderland trains in the middle of the day are less heavily loaded but still not bad.

 

[yorksrob]

Aren't GC's HST's currently seven carriages at present, in which case might not an option be acquiring the pretendolino and converting six trailers to make their HST's up to nine carriage sets. These would be more likely to fit in the platforms than a double 180.

 

[DarloRich]

From what i have seen both their Bradford Interchange and Sunderland routes can get very overcrowded at times. If you look on Twitter there are always people complaining and posting photos of very overcrowded Grand Central trains with people sitting and standing in the aisles.

Coupling up the 180s to run them as 10 coach trains would be a good idea. Out of interest what happens when they get coupled up? I didn't realise they had problems operating in multiple?

Also do 180s have SDO? I presume that the GWR ones need it for Combe / Finstock / Ascott Under Wychwood / Shipton (and possibly a few others) stations? I don't think all stations that GC serve can hold 10 coaches so they would need to use SDO.

i have only ever been on overcrowded GC trains at peak times ( xmas/Easter) other times they are busy not ram packed

 

[class26]

Aren't GC's HST's currently seven carriages at present, in which case might not an option be acquiring the pretendolino and converting six trailers to make their HST's up to nine carriage sets. These would be more likely to fit in the platforms than a double 180.

The HST`s are 6 coaches I believe.

 

[ainsworth74]

Aren't GC's HST's currently seven carriages at present, in which case might not an option be acquiring the pretendolino and converting six trailers to make their HST's up to nine carriage sets. These would be more likely to fit in the platforms than a double 180.

Considering their HSTs are going to withdrawn in the next 12 - 18 months I don't think that's particularly viable!

 

[43096]

ram packed

You are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my tenner!!!!!!!

 

[Darandio]

Aren't GC's HST's currently seven carriages at present, in which case might not an option be acquiring the pretendolino and converting six trailers to make their HST's up to nine carriage sets. These would be more likely to fit in the platforms than a double 180.

Isn't the pretendolino in the process of being fitted out for TPE?

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't GC's HST's currently seven carriages at present, in which case might not an option be acquiring the pretendolino and converting six trailers to make their HST's up to nine carriage sets. These would be more likely to fit in the platforms than a double 180.

Or they could always just bin the HSTs as they have already announced, and run a pure 180 fleet, as they will have the 5 ex GW units this year. Having flagged that up for about 3 years now, one would hope they have addressed 'fitting in platforms' before now...

 

[yorksrob]

Considering their HSTs are going to withdrawn in the next 12 - 18 months I don't think that's particularly viable!

I was just thinking if they needed the additional 180's for their Blackpool service for example. In terms of acceleration and deceleration, York - London is non-stop and York - Northallerton is 4 track most of the way, so the Sunderland service is one on which a long HST shouldn't cause any performance issues.

 

[tbtc]

Evening trains back from London always seem busy, so the must be filling a niche.

Me and a friend caught the evening GC from Doncaster to Wakefield a couple of weeks ago. We had to walk through a couple of carriages to get a table to ourselves.

If you can't fill most of the 287 seats on a 180 leaving London at rush hour then it feels like a wasted path.

It will be interesting to see how the new VTEC services to Middlesbrough and Bradford Forster Square impact on GC

It will be.

Hull Trains seem to have found a niche for themselves (they don't see so interested in expansion - other than up the coast towards Bridlington - and NXEC/ DOR/ VTEC don't seem too bothered about competing to Hull). They are more focussed on getting their new trains (the fourth fleet they'll have had, and the third lot of brand new trains on the Hull route - pretty good going!).

GC on the other hand have been more ambitious and also attracted the attention of VTEC with plans to run (additional) services to Wearside/ Teesside/ Kirklees/ Bradford.

If GC lose a big chunk of the full price tickets from Sunderland/ Eaglescliffe/ Bradford (when VTEC start bi-hourly services -and start running more York - London services) then they are going to have to find a way of fighting back.

It's also worth remembering that the rejected GC application for extra Bradford services, and to start a service to Cleethorpes. Amongst all the other discussion the ORR were positive about Cleethorpes....

The Cleethorpes plan was only rejected because of the other things in it which ORR were unhappy with. They commented that they had made it clear that they would be minded to approve a London to Cleethorpes application

IIRC the Cleethorpes plan was the "cherry" to try to get some London - Leeds paths (i.e. if you let us run services on the lucrative Leeds corridor then we'll give South Humberside/ North East Lincolnshire something too).

Interesting negotiating tactic - though the Cleethorpes services didn't seem economically viable for them without the potentially profitable Leeds paths tied to them.

i have only ever been on overcrowded GC trains at peak times ( xmas/Easter) other times they are busy not ram packed

That ties in with my experience of them (but I'd also add that Sunderland AFC fixtures tend to make certain services rather busy!).

 

[ainsworth74]

I was just thinking if they needed the additional 180's for their Blackpool service for example. In terms of acceleration and deceleration, York - London is non-stop and York - Northallerton is 4 track most of the way, so the Sunderland service is one on which a long HST shouldn't cause any performance issues.

Ah gotcha! Still not sure it'll be a problem though they're basically going to have access to all fourteen 180s before too long. They already have five and then the five GWR 180s are going to become available soon (and are already earmarked for GC) whilst the four HT 180s are going to be available by 2020 so fourteen units to cover Sunderland, Bradford and Blackpool I'd think would be more than sufficient. Though to be honest I'd expect to see Blackpool get something else (possibly HSTs as an interim until they can order and receive something electric) and for GC to apply for Cleethorpes and focus their 180s on the ECML (again I'd have though fourteen units to be more than sufficient to cover all of that).

IIRC the Cleethorpes plan was the "cherry" to try to get some London - Leeds paths (i.e. if you let us run services on the lucrative Leeds corridor then we'll give South Humberside/ North East Lincolnshire something too).

Interesting negotiating tactic - though the Cleethorpes services didn't seem economically viable for them without the potentially profitable Leeds paths tied to them.

Yes I got the impression that the ORR definitely seemed keen:

55. These financial impacts would have been reduced had the application focused on serving (say) just the Cleethorpes line – this line has no direct services to London at the moment and we have previously approved applications whose main impact is to provide such new direct services.

I really love the '(say)' in that letter

It actually felt to me, reading the whole letter, that the ORR were actually rather annoyed that GC hadn't separately bid for Cleethorpes.

But GC seem to be of the opinion, as you say, that Cleethorpes isn't viable on its own. Whether that really was just a bargaining tool to try and get hold of some Leeds paths and they can make actually make Cleethorpes work on its own I don't know!

 

[DarloRich]

That ties in with my experience of them (but I'd also add that Sunderland AFC fixtures tend to make certain services rather busy!).

A lot of London based Boro fans use them for home games to ( via Eaglecliffe)

 

[70014IronDuke]

A lot of London based Boro fans use them for home games to ( via Eaglecliffe)

Interesting. Do they continue by train, or jump in a taxi?

I'm a bit surprised GC haven't also put at least one train e/w into Boro. Many people simply do not like changing. But I guess they see the run to Sunderland as more lucrative - and, from posters above, it seems to attract Durham coast - York traffic, which must be useful additional revenue from otherwise empty seats.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm on a Grand Central day out right now. Got the 1048 from King's Cross to Mirfield. Almost all of Standard Class had seat reservations out of King's Cross (admittedly it is Monday of half term week). A few people got off at each of Donny, Pontefract and Wakefield, but plenty still on the train to Brighouse and beyond - can't argue GC aren't satisfying a market need with their services!

Some passengers being met in car parks etc, so some railheading going on, and a handful waiting for connections to Huddersfield, etc.

Re: Low Moor: Some future services on OpenTrainTimes etc. explicitly show a call at Low Moor.

 

[Darandio]

Interesting. Do they continue by train, or jump in a taxi?

In my experience they just pile on the next Northern service, certainly on Saturday games anyway.