Grand Central order Hitachi Tri-Modes - confirmed

[Class15]

Hitachi and ?

None of Derby, Newport or Goole are in North East. Aycliffe is only just in the area!

I would have said that Goole is but fair enough!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Cynically/politically: they are based in the UK, in an area with limited economic performance, lacking in high skill, well paid jobs in a target constituency for governments of both colours

If it were up to me I would buy them. It just seems easiest. If I buy from elsewhere I assume a lot of risk that doesn't appear obvious with Hitachi

It seems an outrider to me. However, I don't know anything about the procurement so cant judge.

Not to mention the PR benefit in their home market. Made in the North East, for the North East. Or rather, the PR disaster that would be the alternative... imagine if they'd bought CAF trains made in Wales or Spain, while Hitachi lay off employees due to lack of work. Not to mention CAF's own issues with build quality, rough ride, cracking etc. Seats are just seats, which seem to be the main gripe with AT300s.

Aycliffe is only just in the area!

Only just?! It's further north than Middlesbrough and further east than Consett!

 

[AJDesiro]

All currently in service 80x except Avanti and Lumo plus the 397, Mk5a LHCS and first class (!) on the 730/2. The 700 first class seat is a similar but not identical design and does have the metal bar issue to some extent. The 197 has the same frame but seems not to have the metal bar issue.

It appears from the pictures that GC have not specified these - they look like FISA LEANs as per the 810, FLIRT etc.

The 730/2s seem to have the 197/385 1st variant of the seat, rather than the 80x/397/Mk5 variant.

(image shows 730/2's former first class area)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am biased - none of those are in the north east

Hitachi sourced the class 802 order from Italy (Pistoia).
Significant proportions of the IEP and Avanti fleets were built in Japan.
Much of any Hitachi UK build is imported from Japan and elsewhere.

The same story will be true for all the other "UK"-based factories.
Siemens has yet to build any main line stock in the UK.

 

[DarloRich]

Significant proportions of the IEP and Avanti fleets were built in Japan.
Much of any Hitachi UK build is imported from Japan and elsewhere.

Yes -we should say assembled rather than built.

 

[YorksLad12]

I always maintain that seat comfort is subjective (and as new Azuma seats are fine to me) but many of the LNER seats are actually broken now. You can feel the metal support through the cushion.

Objection! Unless you've travelled on every Azuma set and sat on every seat, you mean many of the seats you've sat on. Big difference. I didn't have a problem with my seat on my most recent trip down to London, so you could equally argue that I'm always lucky...

I would have said that Goole is but fair enough!

Allow me to hit you repeatedly over the head with this handy map of Yorkshire I have until you learn some geography

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hitachi sourced the class 802 order from Italy (Pistoia).
Significant proportions of the IEP and Avanti fleets were built in Japan.
Much of any Hitachi UK build is imported from Japan and elsewhere.

The same story will be true for all the other "UK"-based factories.
Siemens has yet to build any main line stock in the UK.

Ironically it has been argued before that Siemens trains have more UK content in them than trains actually assembled in the UK !.

 

[Pete_uk]

Apart from the fact that the ones I travel on (GWR) have awful seats, the fact that they started cracking which completely trashed GWML expresses for a few days and now have to be repaired, and the fact that they are years late on EMR.

Apart from all those things, maybe they’re not bad quality

Don't forget heaeing and feeling the track below on your posterior.

The Mk3s bounced, the IETs jolt!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't forget heaeing and feeling the track below on your posterior.

The Mk3s bounced, the IETs jolt!

IETs ride smoothly on good track eg the WCML fasts. The GWML needs bringing up to scratch.

 

[WAB]

Anecdotal - the LNER ones seem ok. The avanti ones seem ok. That's my anecdotal view. Unlike many here i am not a seat obsessive.

I quite like the LNER seats but the bases of the GWR examples are generally awful and feel like they've collapsed. I presume GC's examples will learn from these mistakes...

 

[43096]

In the price I think.

You think? You guess.

There are a significant number of senior people at LNER who detest Hitachi thanks to their attitude towards the customer, their product not meeting availability targets and many other factors. Annoy the customer - don’t expect repeat business.

 

[Wyrleybart]

You think? You guess.

There are a significant number of senior people at LNER who detest Hitachi thanks to their attitude towards the customer, their product not meeting availability targets and many other factors. Annoy the customer - don’t expect repeat business.

To be fair though "43096" I guess Hitachi regard their customer is the DfT, and LNER and GWR are down the food chain !!

 

[Fincra5]

You think? You guess.

There are a significant number of senior people at LNER who detest Hitachi thanks to their attitude towards the customer, their product not meeting availability targets and many other factors. Annoy the customer - don’t expect repeat business.

Sounds like every rolling stock manufacturer!

 

[trawler]

I would have said that Goole is but fair enough!

Goole is in East Yorkshire not the North East.

 

[rangersac]

The batteries in the TPE trial were essentially Nissan Leaf batteries, which are just about the worst out there in automotive use. Hopefully something more useful and robust in these.

The issue with Leaf batteries isn't their construction, it's the lack of thermal management which leads to increased rates of degradation. Nissan used NMC battery cells in the Leaf which actually have a higher energy density than more modern LFP batteries, but they don't like being at very high or low states of charge for too long. Complete pack failures in Leafs are extremely rare, it's usually just one or two bad cells which can easily be replaced and thermal runaway events (i.e. battery fires) are almost unheard of. Anyway what I'm driving at is that in terms of using them as batteries for trains as long as there's a decent battery management system and thermal management of the battery then they're a perfectly acceptable choice.

 

[D365]

There are a significant number of senior people at LNER who detest Hitachi thanks to their attitude towards the customer, their product not meeting availability targets and many other factors. Annoy the customer - don’t expect repeat business.

To be fair though "43096" I guess Hitachi regard their customer is the DfT, and LNER and GWR are down the food chain !!

BIB - with respect to service enhancement and infrastructure upgrades on East Coast Main Line, whilst DfT and Network Rail might be the ultimate customer, the train operators are equally involved. From personal experience, the relationship between a service provider and their stakeholders is never as black-and-white as a contract makes it out to be.

 

[oglord]

Goole is in East Yorkshire not the North East.

It my be governed by a council calling itself "East", but Goole is really in the West Riding. https://gazetteer.org.uk/map/#/centre=53.708,-0.892/zoom=14/pins=off

 

[Trainbike46]

Goole is in Yorkshire, which is in the North, and it is east of the Pennines, therefore Goole is in the Northeast, no?

*ducks for cover*

 

[Class15]

Goole is in Yorkshire, which is in the North, and it is east of the Pennines, therefore Goole is in the Northeast, no?

*ducks for cover*

That’s what I would have thought…

Allow me to hit you repeatedly over the head with this handy map of Yorkshire I have until you learn some geography

It’s north of Watford and east of Shenfield - is that not ‘north-east?’

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the finer geographical points about the location of Goole might be starting to take is a bit off-topic, perhaps we can leave it there (or take it to another thread)?

 

[InTheEastMids]

The batteries in the TPE trial were essentially Nissan Leaf batteries, which are just about the worst out there in automotive use. Hopefully something more useful and robust in these.

The issue with Leaf batteries isn't their construction, it's the lack of thermal management which leads to increased rates of degradation. Nissan used NMC battery cells in the Leaf which actually have a higher energy density than more modern LFP batteries, but they don't like being at very high or low states of charge for too long. Complete pack failures in Leafs are extremely rare, it's usually just one or two bad cells which can easily be replaced and thermal runaway events (i.e. battery fires) are almost unheard so. Anyway what I'm driving at is that in terms of using them as batteries for trains as long as there's a decent battery management system and thermal management of the battery then they're a perfectly acceptable choice.

A lack of lifetime might not matter that much, if they are very cheap (in context of overall cost of ownership) and are easy to replace at maybe 5-10 year intervals.
But this makes obsolescence a concern situation - will it be possible/affordable to buy drop-in replacements in 20-30 years time? Particularly for a niche application such as rail where it may be more cost effective to take what's available rather than spend a lot of money on highly customised products.

I wouldn't be surprised to see production trains shift to lithium iron phosphate, but it's not always an obvious choice. For example, Mercedes (eActros, LFP) and Volvo (FH Electric, Li-NCA) are using different chemistries for their electric HGV platforms, despite the use case being identical.

 

[D365]

A lack of lifetime might not matter that much, if they are very cheap (in context of overall cost of ownership) and are easy to replace at maybe 5-10 year intervals.
But this makes obsolescence a concern situation - will it be possible/affordable to buy drop-in replacements in 20-30 years time? Particularly for a niche application such as rail where it may be more cost effective to take what's available rather than spend a lot of money on highly customised products.

Railway rolling stock uses ’off the shelf’ batteries that are configured and packaged in accordance with rail requirements. Any developments in the technology are being followed closely by rolling stock manufacturers and the applicable railway safety bodies.

 

[Class 317]

Railway rolling stock uses ’off the shelf’ batteries that are configured and packaged in accordance with rail requirements. Any developments in the technology are being followed closely by rolling stock manufacturers and the applicable railway safety bodies.

Hitachi will be using a different battery chemistry to the test unit offering better range for a lower weight.

Battery obsolescence will not be an issue as come replacement after 10 years or so you won't need exactly the same battery just one sized for the same location.

The 10 year and 20 year overhauls will include battery replacement with a significant part of the cost being covered by the improved performance of the new batteries and the value realised by selling the secondhand batteries for less demanding uses and or recycling.

Currently batteries being recycled in small numbers suggest that around 50% of the replacement cost is likely recoverable from the recycling of the degraded battery.

 

[poffle]

I think most battery packs are built up of masses of individual cells. These are a bit like AA or C or D cell batteries. The main issue with rail applications is that there will be multiple charge/discharge cycles per day. So a much more intense usage cycle than in an EV or a residential/grid application.

I'd expect that removing and replacing a battery pack would be a routine maintenance task. At a certain point the battery pack might need faulty or substandard cells replaced in a factory environment.

It might even be that at a heavy rebuild stage that diesel power packs might be replaced with battery power packs depending on network electrification.

 

[Nottingham59]

Has it been confirmed anywhere what battery technolgy Hitachi will use in the Grand Central order?

802207 used Nissan Leaf battery packs, but Hitachi have previously announced a new battery technology partnership with Turntide Technologies.

The Hitachi press release doesn't say what technology will be used for GC:

Hitachi Rail wins new UK contract to build intercity battery trains

Order worth around £300 million for fleet of new trains, which will increase seats by 20 per cent, improving capacity and connectivity. 45 rail cars to be...

www.mynewsdesk.com

Turntide themselves welcome the news, but don't actually say if they are involved at all, which is curious:

#electrification #railindustry #netzero #levellingup #innovation | Turntide Technologies

Fantastic News for the North East! This major project will not only enhance travel options for passengers but also contribute to a more sustainable rail industry. #Electrification #RailIndustry #NetZero #LevellingUp #Innovation

www.linkedin.com

More details of the battery technologies in this thread:

802207 Hitachi testing battery power for Transpennine

Is 802207 in full use now? It’s my last 802 with TPE I’ve yet to ride on. No, it is currently sat doing nothing outside at Hitachi’s Merchant Park facility.

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