Grand Union approved for Cardiff to London open access by ORR from December 2024

[robert thomas]

Is there a buslink opportunity from Felindre? After all, Swansea station itself is a longish walk from the city centre, so doesn't serve very well those who live in the south of the city.


I'm finding your SWML reference here a bit distracting, living as I do on the real SWML at Basingstoke. Normal convention is to name the GWR mainline the GWML, especially if you're referring to services to South Wales!

Network Rail use SWM-see attached photograph in Neath

I don't know exactly where they plan to build this so called ‘Felindre’ station as the only Felindre I can find is a small hamlet up near the reservoirs several miles to the north of the Swansea District Line. Presumably, the station will be somewhere by the M4 near Morriston Hospital?

Having 1 train every other hour on this line won't be enough. Something else will be needed to at least create an hourly service. The question must be what this will be whilst also maintaining services on the route via Swansea.

I also note that the speed limit on the Swansea District Line was reduced by Network Rail - presumably to limit track wear caused by freight trains? This certainly needs to be raised to speed up services for passenger trains. I can remember as a kid travelling this line on the Fishguard to London express which went non stop from Llanelli to Cardiff.

I see that vast areas of housing are to be built near the Swansea District Line. I hope that the planners create easy ways for people to reach a suitable station on this line be it by foot, bicycle or car along with suitable bus links.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/plans-whole-new-village-2000-25647650[/URLThe propsed

http://

Felindre is the site of the former Felindre Steel/Tinplate Works adjacent to the Swansea District Line

 

[paul1609]

I don't know exactly where they plan to build this so called ‘Felindre’ station as the only Felindre I can find is a small hamlet up near the reservoirs several miles to the north of the Swansea District Line. Presumably, the station will be somewhere by the M4 near Morriston Hospital?

Having 1 train every other hour on this line won't be enough. Something else will be needed to at least create an hourly service. The question must be what this will be whilst also maintaining services on the route via Swansea.

WSMR had Tame Bridge Parkway which was supposed to attract park and ride traffic from a wide area of the West Midlands. I don't think that in my admittedly limited use of WSMR I ever saw more than 1 or 2 trainspotters boarding or alighting there.
I fully expect Swansea back end of nowhere parkway to be the same its all about London to Bristol and Cardiff tickets!

 

[stj]

His Government have supported the Grand Union bid as well as ordering Spanish and Swiss trains....

The Grand Union website states "very significant support from WAG"

 

[Watershed]

Network Rail use SWM-see attached photograph in Neath

That's the Engineer's Line Reference code - and it's not SWML.

 

[Envoy]

WSMR had Tame Bridge Parkway which was supposed to attract park and ride traffic from a wide area of the West Midlands. I don't think that in my admittedly limited use of WSMR I ever saw more than 1 or 2 trainspotters boarding or alighting there.
I fully expect Swansea back end of nowhere parkway to be the same its all about London to Bristol and Cardiff tickets!

I disagree. This new Parkway station will be right by the M4. From here eastward all the way to the east side of Port Talbot it is a 2 lane motorway and very congested. Virtually everybody travelling west into the whole of south-west Wales (and vice versa) must pass this point. With a large free car park and fast trains, then surely this will attract users from a wide area including the Swansea Valley and settlements in north Swansea. This will then benefit say Cardiff where you will remove all these people from trying to enter the city by car.

Morriston Hospital and the DVLA offices are also nearby. These would require a short bus link to the new Felindre station.

This route will also make rail travel more attractive as it takes so long to go into Swansea and then back out again for those travelling to/from south-west Wales. I would also like to see a Parkway station at Pontarddulais where passengers could transfer between express trains on the SDL and the Heart of Wales Line. By using this short cut, the Heart of Wales Line would benefit not just for residents but also by attracting more tourists doing the circuit of the southern half of Wales via The Marches Line. At the same time, Swansea & Llanelli would not lose out as The Heart of Wales Trains would still serve these places.

If well timed connections can be made at Carmarthen with services to Pembrokeshire, then day trips to Cardiff will be much easier and faster. Likewise, day trips to say Tenby from Cardiff would be possible as at present it is a long and tedious trip. (Car travel between Tenby and Cardiff is almost twice as fast as using trains). Of course, perhaps through trains to places west of Carmarthen could also use this faster route. As I said earlier, the line will need at least an hourly frequency.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Network Rail use SWM-see attached photograph in Neath

http://

Felindre is the site of the former Felindre Steel/Tinplate Works adjacent to the Swansea District Line

Well SWM might mean South Wales Main but on a UK wide forum that acronym could be misleading if putting an L on the end as that makes it the South Western Main Line in most peoples books.

 

[paul1609]

I disagree. This new Parkway station will be right by the M4. From here eastward all the way to the east side of Port Talbot it is a 2 lane motorway and very congested. Virtually everybody travelling west into the whole of south-west Wales (and vice versa) must pass this point. With a large free car park and fast trains, then surely this will attract users from a wide area including the Swansea Valley and settlements in north Swansea. This will then benefit say Cardiff where you will remove all these people from trying to enter the city by car.

Morriston Hospital and the DVLA offices are also nearby. These would require a short bus link to the new Felindre station.

This route will also make rail travel more attractive as it takes so long to go into Swansea and then back out again for those travelling to/from south-west Wales. I would also like to see a Parkway station at Pontarddulais where passengers could transfer between express trains on the SDL and the Heart of Wales Line. By using this short cut, the Heart of Wales Line would benefit not just for residents but also by attracting more tourists doing the circuit of the southern half of Wales via The Marches Line. At the same time, Swansea & Llanelli would not lose out as The Heart of Wales Trains would still serve these places.

If well timed connections can be made at Carmarthen with services to Pembrokeshire, then day trips to Cardiff will be much easier and faster. Likewise, day trips to say Tenby from Cardiff would be possible as at present it is a long and tedious trip. (Car travel between Tenby and Cardiff is almost twice as fast as using trains). Of course, perhaps through trains to places west of Carmarthen could also use this faster route. As I said earlier, the line will need at least an hourly frequency.

What I am saying is that an open access operator (Grand Union Trains) leasing expensive bi mode inter city trains are not going to optimise their timetable to attract £13 day return traffic to/ from Cardiff. The timetable they will be encouraging Network Rail to Offer will be optimised to allow as early an arrival in London as possible one that arrives around 9.00am, one around lunchtime, one early evening and one mid evening and the return workings. There's not going to be more than 1 train that's convenient for Cardiff and none that are going to offer nice days out in Tenby.
The absolute focus of their business will be Cardiff and Bristol to London that's the only possible way to cover their costs. The West of Wales trains are a necessary evil to get approval from the ORR. They won't turn down a Swansea parkway to Cardiff Day Return at £13 as long as it doesn't interfere with their core business but it won't be their focus either.
I had a long weekend camping down in Newgale in September by the way so Im aware of the nature of the M4/ A48. Did look at getting the train to Haverfordwest, price looked okay to me but with humping all the gear on a bus (and across London) and then no vehicle on site the car was a bit of a no brainer despite all the road works on the A40 beyond Carmarthen. I can't see that having a through train to Carmarthen would make any difference to me.

 

[92002]

His Government have supported the Grand Union bid as well as ordering Spanish and Swiss trains....

Talgo were looking to build HS2 trains at a new factory in Scotland. So no doubt have a design in mind. They didn't get the contract for HS2 but plans were well advanced. So that could be one option. With a Bi Mode option added.

For that matter no doubt the jigs still exist for the 390 and Alstom have a newer design which could have a Bi Mide option. They would now need to be built-in Italy since the Birmingham factory is no more.

 

[Energy]

Talgo were looking to build HS2 trains at a new factory in Scotland. So no doubt have a design in mind. They didn't get the contract for HS2 but plans were well advanced. So that could be one option. With a Bi Mode option added.

Open access operators won't take an unproven platform, Talgo will be more expensive than Hitachi who can just duplicate what they are already building. Renfe have ordered from non Spanish companies before, they have some Siemens Velaros.

For that matter no doubt the jigs still exist for the 390 and Alstom have a newer design which could have a Bi Mide option. They would now need to be built-in Italy since the Birmingham factory is no more.

The cab design is now not compliant, the 4 additional units and 11 car extensions got through as being replacements for the train lost at Grayrigg. If it was still available the class 807s for Avanti would be more 390s.

The renders back when the plans were for IC225s to provide the service in the interim suggested that the standard class would be 2+1, and the sort-of third class would have the same interior that current standard class has. First class taking it one step further with private compartments, which inconveniently become considerably less private and somewhat uncomfortable as soon as some random decides to come in and share with you.

Interesting, I wouldn't be suprised if the first class booths get dropped at some point.

 

[yorkie]

...as everyone likes a nice ORCATS raid for some free money.

Based on your post, I think you misunderstand what an ORCATS raid is. I refer you to this thread:

What is an ORCATS raid?

Hi, I've seen a few references on this forum to 'ORCATS raids'. So what is an ORCATS raid? I checked on Wikipedia which tells me that ORCATS is the railway wide computer system- but where does the raid come in? Thanks,

www.railforums.co.uk

If you wish to discuss it further, feel free to create a new thread.

 

[RPI]

I don't think ORCATS raids are even a thing now with all of the franchised operators revenue going straight to the Government

 

[Clarence Yard]

With dedicated fares, the ORCATS raiding opportunities on the main intercity flows have all but dried up. There is not a lot of Inter Available revenue left to aim for.

 

[Dai Corner]

You could say that the new station creates opportunities for a new catchment, as well as providing options for people in the West and North of Swansea that don't want to go into the City Centre, especially if parking options are good at the new station.

Look what happened to Bristol Parkway. I wonder if the new station will be called Swansea Parkway?

 

[anthony263]

Look what happened to Bristol Parkway. I wonder if the new station will be called Swansea Parkway?

That was what it was planned to be called by the old Welsh secretary in the UK government when he tried pushing fir it a few years ago.

We could divert the 46 Gorseinon to Morriston to serve the station too plus could run it hourly if we had another bus

 

[Bald Rick]

I disagree. This new Parkway station will be right by the M4. From here eastward all the way to the east side of Port Talbot it is a 2 lane motorway and very congested. Virtually everybody travelling west into the whole of south-west Wales (and vice versa) must pass this point. With a large free car park and fast trains, then surely this will attract users from a wide area including the Swansea Valley and settlements in north Swansea. This will then benefit say Cardiff where you will remove all these people from trying to enter the city by car.

for those people wanting to go to Central Cardiff, perhaps.

 

[Envoy]

for those people wanting to go to Central Cardiff, perhaps.

Not just Cardiff Central. Note that Cardiff has an excellent suburban rail service which will soon be electrified and improved under the Metro project. The crazy thing at the moment is that to get the cheapest fares from this suburban system in the Cardiff area to west Wales, one must split the ticket at Cardiff Central. So much for an integrated ticketing system!

Swansea Parkway would be a much more sensible name for the new station rather than Felindre. This would clearly put it in the publics mind that it is in the Swansea area, has free parking and is near the motorway. Felindre means nothing to most people.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Swansea Parkway would be a much more sensible name for the new station rather than Felindre. This would clearly put it in the publics mind that it is in the Swansea area, has free parking and is near the motorway. Felindre means nothing to most people.

Felindre is a working name, it gives most people a good idea of where it will be, a different final name may be used. Some older documents refer to West Wales Parkway. I assume that is the same as it was proposed to be on the district line (the long Swansea avoiding line, not the short chord by Landore Depot).

Felindre Parkway for Swansea and West Wales?

 

[popeter45]

Not just Cardiff Central. Note that Cardiff has an excellent suburban rail service which will soon be electrified and improved under the Metro project. The crazy thing at the moment is that to get the cheapest fares from this suburban system in the Cardiff area to west Wales, one must split the ticket at Cardiff Central. So much for an integrated ticketing system!

Swansea Parkway would be a much more sensible name for the new station rather than Felindre. This would clearly put it in the publics mind that it is in the Swansea area, has free parking and is near the motorway. Felindre means nothing to most people.

issue is it wont be a parkway to swansea, swansea parkway would indicate you can catch trains from it too swansea proper, e.g. bristol parkway has direct trains to temple meads

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Tiverton Parkway would like a word.

 

[A S Leib]

Tiverton Parkway would like a word.

Do most of its passengers come from Tiverton via bus, or from eg towards Barnstaple by car?

 

[paul1609]

Do most of its passengers come from Tiverton via bus, or from eg towards Barnstaple by car?

Its a parkway station for much of the Southwest peninsula because the M5/A30/A38 road network is far quicker than the rail network beyond Exeter.

 

[Snow1964]

Felindre is a working name, it gives most people a good idea of where it will be, a different final name may be used. Some older documents refer to West Wales Parkway. I assume that is the same as it was proposed to be on the district line (the long Swansea avoiding line, not the short chord by Landore Depot).

Felindre Parkway for Swansea and West Wales?

Yes near junction 46 of M4, the working name comes from a business park on a former steelworks site, not the village few miles to the north. There was a rather basic park and ride facility there, don’t know if it still used, but presumably that has (or had) a bus service.

The line is in a cutting, so will probably be platform edges and backfill to create the platforms, not sure if long ramps traversing the cutting are acceptable, or extra cost of lifts will be required (bit overkill to add lifts initially if only 5 trains each way per day)

Probably be easier to reach from north Swansea and lots of rural Carmarthenshire, as a drive to railhead. But lots of Parkway stations are near motorway junctions

 

[paul1609]

Yes near junction 46 of M4, the working name comes from a business park on a former steelworks site, not the village few miles to the north. There was a rather basic park and ride facility there, don’t know if it still used, but presumably that has (or had) a bus service.

The line is in a cutting, so will probably be platform edges and backfill to create the platforms, not sure if long ramps traversing the cutting are acceptable, or extra cost of lifts will be required (bit overkill to add lifts initially if only 5 trains each way per day)

Probably be easier to reach from north Swansea and lots of rural Carmarthenshire, as a drive to railhead. But lots of Parkway stations are near motorway junctions

Whats the linespeed through there these days. I think the last time I went through there it was on a railtour to Milford Haven and it was painfully slow? I cant see Grand Union wanting to pay for the upgrading.

 

[Coolzac]

I agree - I doubt a handful of trains a day will be enough to convince passengers to start using it in any volume. It will also only take a cancellation for passengers to return to their cars and drive to Port Talbot Parkway next time if nothing else can pick up the stops.

Surely TFW services would stop there as well? I hope so, as others have discussed, I think it's a great idea to build a station there and could be a great success. But I do agree that it would need more then a train every 2 hours to be a success!

 

[Dai Corner]

Surely TFW services would stop there as well? I hope so, as others have discussed, I think it's a great idea to build a station there and could be a great success. But I do agree that it would need more then a train every 2 hours to be a success!

I think there's only one train a day that goes that way (Fishguard Harbour to Cardiff - a remnant of the boat trains I suppose ). Everything else naturally goes via Swansea.

 

[paul1609]

Surely TFW services would stop there as well? I hope so, as others have discussed, I think it's a great idea to build a station there and could be a great success. But I do agree that it would need more then a train every 2 hours to be a success!

Surely to call there TFW services have to skip Swansea?

 

[Western 52]

Whats the linespeed through there these days. I think the last time I went through there it was on a railtour to Milford Haven and it was painfully slow? I cant see Grand Union wanting to pay for the upgrading.

50mph I think, and slower over the river bridge at Neath. I think TfW services which currently use the line are for maintaining route knowledge?

 

[Llanigraham]

issue is it wont be a parkway to swansea, swansea parkway would indicate you can catch trains from it too swansea proper, e.g. bristol parkway has direct trains to temple meads

I can remember when Bristol Parkway was first opened and the things that were talked about at the time had nothing to do with it being for trains going into Bristol itself, but much more about trains to London, Cardiff and the Midlands; long distance stuff.
And I do wonder if you follow your thoughts here, how you would attribute Bodmin Parkway to that?

 

[Envoy]

Surely to call there TFW services have to skip Swansea?

What will be needed is trains on both routes. This is still densely populated south Wales as can be witnessed by the flow of road traffic both into Swansea and on the M4 to the north.

 

[paul1609]

What will be needed is trains on both routes. This is still densely populated south Wales as can be witnessed by the flow of road traffic both into Swansea and on the M4 to the north.

Isn't there only 1 train in each direction that uses that line Mon to Thurs (Carmarthen to Manchester) and 1 on saturdays (Cardiff to Pembroke Dock) to maintain route knowledge in each direction.
It appears that it only saves about 4 mins using it throughout as opposed to a train reversing at Swansea and running fast to Port Talbot.
To increase the trains calling there you either have to increase the through trains Port Talbot to Llanelli or cut the current Swansea services.
One would seem to massively increase TfWs costs for very little increase in revenue. The other would seem to reduce the revenue significantly.