Grand Union approved for Cardiff to London open access by ORR from December 2024

[CptCharlee]

With these supposed "comfortable seats" and buffet cars this is really gonna show up how bare bones the government have made GWR.

Maybe the DfT will be forced to improve the service on GWR.... ah yeah thats wishful thinking on my end.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This is great news - especially for Carmarthenshire where GWR basically could not be bothered to operate west of Swansea (apart form 1 London train east and 1 west per day.) Also good news that Felindre will be a calling point on the Swansea District Line with a P&R along with Cardiff East Parkway and Severn Tunnel Junction. (It would have been good if a new station could be built on the SDL at Pontarddulais as the Heart of Wales trains could have dropped off passengers from Llandovery, Llandeilo, Ammanford etc. and these could transfer to/from the Grand Union express services. Buses could have brought people from Cross Hands and other nearby villages).

Let's hope that they fit the Hitachi trains with better seats than GWR did.

As a West Walian by birth - I have to agree with you on the "underserving" of the area beyond the end of the M4 at Pont Abraham.

The options of some quicker connectivity Carmarthen to Cardiff is surely of some benefit as the road options can be challenging , especially in the peak hours. M4 delays seem to be very recurring issue.

 

[Kite159]

Yes, but I can’t see how ORR cannot really defend an applicants future aspirations, against something not currently happening but planned for future date. If they did anyone could announce dozens of future events as a blocking tactic, then cancel them before they happen after new co application is rejected. If the application was rejected there is still 6 months to cancel those Didcot trains (and let’s be honest many operators have been cancelling things with lot less than 6 months notice



possibly will short term hire something in meantime, could be a 222 Meridian to name just one type that will become available, and no subsequent operator has yet been announced.

Presuming they will be willing to pay for the route clearance checks for the 222s unless they already have clearance on the Western

 

[Dai Corner]

Maybe even easier in that case is the M4 trafic share to win.

The Welsh Government's cancellation of the M4 Relief Rond around Newport will help there.

 

[StephenHunter]

GC were hardly 'all words' with Blackpool. They very nearly launched; the operation was pulled at the 11th hour due to financial concerns. With GC running a full pre-Covid timetable on the ECML and this application proceeding on the GWML, I wonder whether there is perhaps still the potential for them to run on the WCML after all. Though I always have reservations about the impact of OAOs on passengers (particularly during disruption), it would be good for Avanti to face some competition in order to force them to reduce some of their fares.

They repainted a bunch of Mark 4 rakes too; TfW now have at least some of them.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

With these supposed "comfortable seats" and buffet cars this is really gonna show up how bare bones the government have made GWR.

Buffet cars seems to be a big thing on Rail Forums and yet the average person on the train if you ask them do they wish to leave all their expensive belongings unattended whilst they go to a buffet car would sooner an at seat service….

 

[Prodigy1989]

Interesting. I often take this route to London!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buffet cars seems to be a big thing on Rail Forums and yet the average person on the train if you ask them do they wish to leave all their expensive belongings unattended whilst they go to a buffet car would sooner an at seat service….

Probably because we've experienced just how bad the typical at seat service is. It's taken as a way of saving staff but doesn't work in that way - you really need a trolley per two or three coaches or so if doing it that way.

 

[CapitalStar378]

I'm really pleasantly surprised at this, genuinely thought it would be knocked back again despite a good business case.

This is very welcome news for travellers to south Wales, GWRs fares are a rip off so some competition is very much needed. Maybe this will spur on an improvement in their class 800 drab, uncomfortable interiors too.

Great news for south west Wales with more direct services and a new station at Felindre. Also for Cardiff Parkway if the Welsh Government get their act together.

 

[mrmartin]

Yeah agreed I take GWR to Cardiff very often and fares are poor value, never any cheaper advances unless you book weeks in advance despite a lot of free seats late at night when I tend to travel.

Hopefully this lot can provide some real competition.

 

[Western Sunset]

Will they call at Pilning?

 

[allaction]

A surprising number of London-bound rail passengers from Pembrokeshire currently drive to Port Talbot Parkway and catch the GWR service from and to there, so this will be a big boon for them.

In the meantime, and from the launch of the new service, we can all look forward to being lovebombed by GWR.

 

[Parallel]

I think the faster services to/from Carmarthen will be a benefit, the GWR services take longer due to calling at Swansea and having to detach coaches and then reversing so the journey time probably isn’t as attractive to passengers. As another poster mentioned, Port Talbot Parkway seems to act the same for South Wales as Tiverton Parkway does for Cornwall.

Hopefully the connections will work out OK at Carmarthen for those going to/from the Pembrokeshire branches. I’m not sure what car parking is like at Carmarthen?

 

[James90012]

Probably because we've experienced just how bad the typical at seat service is. It's taken as a way of saving staff but doesn't work in that way - you really need a trolley per two or three coaches or so if doing it that way.

Agreed, if the at seat service was reliable then of course I'd prefer it, but it isn't on GWR. Of the last 4 long distance journeys I have made I've seen the trolley once.

GUT will be a differentiator for passengers in that regard.

 

[paul1609]

Going by my admittedly limited experience on Grand Central trains users of the buffet car or trolley on Grand Union will have a choice of tea or coffee a random selection of alcholic drinks. If the train started in the sticks locally sourced weird sandwiches, posh pot noodles and sausage rolls. If starting out from Kings Crosd Id always recommend Costa and M and S.

 

[ajay1071]

Well at last after nearly 30 years of privatisation there will be competition on the South Wales to London main line. I thought that one of the main points of the privatisation master plan was to introduce competition and competitiveness so suppose better late than never.

 

[williamn]

Buffet cars seems to be a big thing on Rail Forums and yet the average person on the train if you ask them do they wish to leave all their expensive belongings unattended whilst they go to a buffet car would sooner an at seat service….

though the frequently large queues on LNER suggest a buffet remains popular, even with an at-seat service available.

 

[Trainbike46]

though the frequently large queues on LNER suggest a buffet remains popular, even with an at-seat service available.

A buffet tends to have more options than a trolley, including microwaved hot food and a larger selection of coffee options - I can see why that is popular on long-distance services

 

[Dai Corner]

Well at last after nearly 30 years of privatisation there will be competition on the South Wales to London main line. I thought that one of the main points of the privatisation master plan was to introduce competition and competitiveness so suppose better late than never.

The competition was at the franchise bidding stage rather than on the tracks.

I'm sure the main market Grand Union Trains (GUT) have in mind is Cardiff, Newport and and Bristol Parkway to/from Paddington. They'd have been able to use EMUs instead of bi-modes.

West of Cardiff is just to get over the regulatory hurdle.

 

[Coolzac]

How long would it take to build the new station at Parc Felindre? It would be extremely useful for me as I have family in North Swansea (Morriston).

I think it's a great idea and if the fares are cheaper than GWR, I think a lot of people will use it. I know my Welsh cousins often go on the coach from South Wales to London not because they want to, but the train fares are just too expensive.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Buffet cars seems to be a big thing on Rail Forums and yet the average person on the train if you ask them do they wish to leave all their expensive belongings unattended whilst they go to a buffet car would sooner an at seat service….

Whilst I of course avoid railway food, the availability of which is unreliable, and bring my own food.

Going by my admittedly limited experience on Grand Central trains users of the buffet car or trolley on Grand Union will have a choice of tea or coffee a random selection of alcholic drinks. If the train started in the sticks locally sourced weird sandwiches, posh pot noodles and sausage rolls. If starting out from Kings Crosd Id always recommend Costa and M and S.

Yes. I don't think i have ever seen a supermarket/convenience-store temporarily closed.

 

[Rescars]

A buffet tends to have more options than a trolley, including microwaved hot food and a larger selection of coffee options - I can see why that is popular on long-distance services

Another factor to take into account is the significant challenge of navigating a heavily stocked trolley though a busy train, especially given the width of the "alley" in much standard class accommodation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. I don't think i have ever seen a supermarket/convenience-store temporarily closed.

It's happened to a few local Co-ops round here when they've ended up with all the staff having COVID at once (i.e. one's got it and given it to everyone else). However, you can just go to another one, whereas if you're on a train and want a cup of tea there's only one service that can help you with that, and it's either there or it isn't.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Buffet cars seems to be a big thing on Rail Forums and yet the average person on the train if you ask them do they wish to leave all their expensive belongings unattended whilst they go to a buffet car would sooner an at seat service….

According to which study?

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a note that for a discussion of potential rolling stock options for Grand Union please see here.

 

[CardiffKid]

According to which study?

Ask the DfT

 

[HamworthyGoods]

According to which study?

Pretty much all internal studies at Intercity TOCs show people don’t want to leave their seat but want a better service than the trolley can provide, eg the range from the buffet served at their seat.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Pretty much all internal studies at Intercity TOCs show people don’t want to leave their seat but want a better service than the trolley can provide, eg the range from the buffet served at their seat.

That’s interesting, but makes sense. Not very easily doable

 

[fgwrich]

though the frequently large queues on LNER suggest a buffet remains popular, even with an at-seat service available.

A buffet tends to have more options than a trolley, including microwaved hot food and a larger selection of coffee options - I can see why that is popular on long-distance services

Indeed. Travelling on LNER recently, it is noticeable how well used the buffet counter is, despite the offer of an at seat service. One service had queues stretching from the counter area to half way down the following vehicle for some time (I know this because I was one of them!). Still, at least this all seems to work, unlike that on GWR, despite how often we’re told that “it’s what the passengers want”…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Still, at least this all seems to work, unlike that on GWR, despite how often we’re told that “it’s what the passengers want”…

The DfT chose the “no buffet car” specification for the 800s on GWR and as @Clarence Yard has pointed out many times then insisted the 802s had the same internal specification.