Grand Union approved for Cardiff to London open access by ORR from December 2024

[StephenHunter]

Every time I've tried at seat on the phone, it's not been available or the order didn't go through.

 

[popeter45]

kind of annoying the plan is to drop gowerton once that parkway station is built, will essentally cut off all viability of using this when traveling to the gower

 

[anthony263]

I think Swansea parkway/Felindre will prove popular when eventually built but will need more than grand union serving it.

Gowerton itself should be popular with as has been said the gower as well as places like Gorseinon etc too

 

[heathrowrail]

One of the most stupid decisions I have ever thought the DFT could approve after Lumo. Railways are burning through money, GWR services being cut and cut and cut. Yet there is room for another dog operator to come into the scene??? Wouldn't be surprised someone has taken a back hander to see this through.

 

[StephenHunter]

One of the most stupid decisions I have ever thought the DFT could approve after Lumo. Railways are burning through money, GWR services being cut and cut and cut. Yet there is room for another dog operator to come into the scene??? Wouldn't be surprised someone has taken a back hander to see this through.

Lumo have done rather well.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

One of the most stupid decisions I have ever thought the DFT could approve after Lumo. Railways are burning through money, GWR services being cut and cut and cut. Yet there is room for another dog operator to come into the scene??? Wouldn't be surprised someone has taken a back hander to see this through.

Unless you steadfastly only like travelling on GWR IETs, there is no difference between this service being introduced and a few more GWR services on the same route being added. Besides, they’re already back to 2tph on Bristol and Cardiffs.

 

[JonathanH]

Lumo have done rather well.

Yes, although no one knows to what extent this has cost the taxpayer money through lower receipts at LNER.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, although no one knows to what extent this has cost the taxpayer money through lower receipts at LNER.

I think there was a study that showed the majority of Lumo travellers are people who would otherwise have taken a flight or drove to Scotland, rather than former LNER customers.

 

[stj]

How long would it take to build the new station at Parc Felindre? It would be extremely useful for me as I have family in North Swansea (Morriston).

I think it's a great idea and if the fares are cheaper than GWR, I think a lot of people will use it. I know my Welsh cousins often go on the coach from South Wales to London not because they want to, but the train fares are just too expensive.

Exactly we used to send staff to events in London on the train but now its in the pool car as its so much cheaper.

 

[modernrail]

Interestingly the Barcelona to Madrid route has recently gone from 1 operator to 3. People in Barcelona have been complaining about fares having creeped higher and higher with Renfe and that seems to has reversed very quickly with the 2 new operators.

Most of the people I know who are now booking with them new operators had switched back to flights to Madrid otherwise. Crazy nutty (particularly peak) pricing of the incumbents here or there doesn’t not only prevent modal shift but likely causes extraction to other transport methods.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think Swansea parkway/Felindre will prove popular when eventually built but will need more than grand union serving it.

Gowerton itself should be popular with as has been said the gower as well as places like Gorseinon etc too

The solid "suburbanization" of the area should really assist Felindre (if built) - especially is properly served as a hub / parking / bus feeders to and from the Swansea Valley. Options explored with the South West Wales could make this very solid. (now the GCG branch sleeps now that coal has ceased) , could usefully use the infrastructure at Pantyffynon to give - as an option - an Ammanford (central) service onto the Swansea District.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the faster services to/from Carmarthen will be a benefit, the GWR services take longer due to calling at Swansea and having to detach coaches and then reversing so the journey time probably isn’t as attractive to passengers. As another poster mentioned, Port Talbot Parkway seems to act the same for South Wales as Tiverton Parkway does for Cornwall.

Hopefully the connections will work out OK at Carmarthen for those going to/from the Pembrokeshire branches. I’m not sure what car parking is like at Carmarthen?

Not calling at Swansea does miss out a large catchment area though.

 

[jayah]

Yes, although no one knows to what extent this has cost the taxpayer money through lower receipts at LNER.

Lumo have helped clear the skies, with bargain fares, while the government talk a great game.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, that’s the regulator off DfTs Christmas Card list!

 

[Caaardiff]

Hopefully the connections will work out OK at Carmarthen for those going to/from the Pembrokeshire branches. I’m not sure what car parking is like at Carmarthen?

Lots of people connect at Swansea on to TfW services, so that will likely displace them to connect at Carmarthen. Carmarthen station needs to decent upgrade if there will be an increase in connecting passengers

One of the most stupid decisions I have ever thought the DFT could approve after Lumo. Railways are burning through money, GWR services being cut and cut and cut. Yet there is room for another dog operator to come into the scene??? Wouldn't be surprised someone has taken a back hander to see this through.

Is it? Or is it a time for Railway reform? It could go either way. Lumo has said to have attracted a lot of people that would've flown or to a lessor extent driven. South Wales - London is slightly different as there's no Air route, but it's only a 2-3 hour drive. The prospects here are that GU will win back some of the many people that begrudgingly use the coach because it's so much cheaper. But i've never spoken to a person who uses the coach that actually likes it. And second it might actually cut down on car journeys and slightly ease the pressure on the M4. For anyone driving from the West they have to content with 2 often congested lanes as far as Port Talbot then the Brynglas tunnels at Newport.

I'm curious to know the difference in operating costs for say Lumo vs LNER. Do they pay workers less? Do they have less overheads or lower cost base?
Kind of like comparing a legacy Airline like BA with historic emplyment contracts and overheads vs Easyjet that has a much lower cost base. If these open access operators can run with a much lower cost base, it paves the way of improvements in efficiency and cost saving. Ultimately it could mean less reliance on legacy Train Operators funded by the government, and in turn less burden on tax payers. Or really push current train operators to improve financial cost savings.

 

[Bald Rick]

One of the most stupid decisions I have ever thought the DFT could approve after Lumo. Railways are burning through money, GWR services being cut and cut and cut. Yet there is room for another dog operator to come into the scene??? Wouldn't be surprised someone has taken a back hander to see this through.

It wasn’t a DfT decision, it was the ORR. I expect the DfT are hopping mad.

I'm curious to know the difference in operating costs for say Lumo vs LNER. Do they pay workers less? Do they have less overheads or lower cost base?

They have much lower overheads, and much more flexible arrangements for staff, which means they have fewer of them to deliver the service.

 

[43096]

One of the most stupid decisions I have ever thought the DFT could approve after Lumo. Railways are burning through money, GWR services being cut and cut and cut. Yet there is room for another dog operator to come into the scene??? Wouldn't be surprised someone has taken a back hander to see this through.

It's the ORR that approves (or not) open access applications.

 

[TheBigD]

I'm curious to know the difference in operating costs for say Lumo vs LNER. Do they pay workers less? Do they have less overheads or lower cost base?
Kind of like comparing a legacy Airline like BA with historic emplyment contracts and overheads vs Easyjet that has a much lower cost base. If these open access operators can run with a much lower cost base, it paves the way of improvements in efficiency and cost saving. Ultimately it could mean less reliance on legacy Train Operators funded by the government, and in turn less burden on tax payers. Or really push current train operators to improve financial cost savings.

Lumo generally have 1 x driver and 2 x ambassadors (hosts) for their 5 car 394 seat trains.
LNER have a minimum of 1x driver, 1 x guard, 1x 1st class host, 1 x buffet host, 1x trolley host for their 9 car 590 (100 1st/490 std) seat trains. Often more staff depending on service and demand.
Lumo staff are on very different contracts to LNER.

 

[JonathanH]

If these open access operators can run with a much lower cost base, it paves the way of improvements in efficiency and cost saving.

Lumo staff are on very different contracts to LNER.

Yes, supporting open access operators paying their staff less and offering inferior pension arrangements seems somewhat at odds with the objectives of the current industrial action.

 

[Caaardiff]

Yes, supporting open access operators paying their staff less and offering inferior pension arrangements seems somewhat at odds with the objectives of the current industrial action.

Controversial opinion - If people want lower, more competitive fares, costs have to come down. If current TOC's aren't making money and costing the tax payer money, costs have to come down.
No-one complains about Ryanair paying their staff low wages, especially not the 150+ million people that use them each year because of their low fares. The railway will always pay better than most other industries, but something has got to give.

 

[jayah]

They have much lower overheads, and much more flexible arrangements for staff, which means they have fewer of them to deliver the service.

This is how a normal economy works, look at low cost airlines. More efficient operators drive out less efficient ones and the capital / labour are reallocated to ensure maximum productivity.

How many people would vote to go back to the 1980s?

Lumo generally have 1 x driver and 2 x ambassadors (hosts) for their 5 car 394 seat trains.
LNER have a minimum of 1x driver, 1 x guard, 1x 1st class host, 1 x buffet host, 1x trolley host for their 9 car 590 (100 1st/490 std) seat trains. Often more staff depending on service and demand.
Lumo staff are on very different contracts to LNER.

In the scheme of things, the hosts are not driving the cost base.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is how a normal economy works, look at low cost airlines. More efficient operators drive out less efficient ones and the capital / labour are reallocated to ensure maximum productivity.

Lumo are structured much like a low cost airline.

 

[The Middle]

Yes, supporting open access operators paying their staff less

A quick look at Glassdoor suggests that the ambassadors at Lumo earn significantly more than than the on board hosts on LNER which would be the equivalent role.

 

[800001]

A quick look at Glassdoor suggests that the ambassadors at Lumo earn significantly more than than the on board hosts on LNER which would be the equivalent role.

Yes as the ambassadors are classed as safety critical. They can despatch a train if required, and are also there to help with evacuation. They are a Train Manager and Host made into one.

 

[popeter45]

Not calling at Swansea does miss out a large catchment area though.

i wish they would add a stop that makes swansea connections easier, e.g. briton ferry

 

[Caaardiff]

i wish they would add a stop that makes swansea connections easier, e.g. briton ferry

Port Talbot would be much better than Briton Ferry.

Not calling at Swansea does miss out a large catchment area though.

You could say that the new station creates opportunities for a new catchment, as well as providing options for people in the West and North of Swansea that don't want to go into the City Centre, especially if parking options are good at the new station.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Going by my admittedly limited experience on Grand Central trains users of the buffet car or trolley on Grand Union will have a choice of tea or coffee a random selection of alcholic drinks. If the train started in the sticks locally sourced weird sandwiches, posh pot noodles and sausage rolls. If starting out from Kings Crosd Id always recommend Costa and M and S.

Grand Central provided some of the best railway fare I've seen on the network when I travelled down the Xmas before last. If they serve the sausage ciabatta on the new GUT services, you're in luck.
Not too dear either.
Very reasonable first class fares too for those who want their drinks free, on top of the lovely interior in FC.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Not calling at Swansea does miss out a large catchment area though.

i wish they would add a stop that makes swansea connections easier, e.g. briton ferry

Port Talbot would be much better than Briton Ferry.


You could say that the new station creates opportunities for a new catchment, as well as providing options for people in the West and North of Swansea that don't want to go into the City Centre, especially if parking options are good at the new station.

The proposal is for a new parkway station at Felindre, adjacent to the DVLC park and ride site on the old timplate works. The track access application notes that it is a four mile drive into Swansea city centre, with limited parking when you get there. The proposed new station will be adjacent to the M4. Thus the new station will be far more attractive to the wider area (or at least those who drive). Reading the approval letter, Felindre has been removed from the approved track access application, but is to come back as an amendment to the application. In the meantime Gowerton will serve the purpose of Felindre.

 

[heathrowrail]

Controversial opinion - If people want lower, more competitive fares, costs have to come down. If current TOC's aren't making money and costing the tax payer money, costs have to come down.
No-one complains about Ryanair paying their staff low wages, especially not the 150+ million people that use them each year because of their low fares. The railway will always pay better than most other industries, but something has got to give.

Well bringing in fully private firms to take the Cremer off the railways coffee is certainly not going to help! Apart from Heathrow Express which actually serves a very real purpose up until recently and in some cases still does. This entire thing is going to lead to the railways collapse.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well bringing in fully private firms to take the Cremer off the railways coffee is certainly not going to help! Apart from Heathrow Express which actually serves a very real purpose up until recently and in some cases still does. This entire thing is going to lead to the railways collapse.

Some people may suggest that the railways already have collapsed.

The GWR 'franchise' could always be trimmed by five pairs of trains per day to reflect the new upstart, especially now that it is a management contract. Hey, perhaps Grand Central could be offered even more! Suggestions are that GWR have already permanently suspended some of their services anyway.

The track access application discusses the number of open access services on the East Coast route and that the LNER themselves are operating more additional services than all of the open access operators added together. On that route, we are told, passenger numbers are now exceeding pre-covid numbers.

I take it all with a pinch of salt, there is some sales talk in there. Also I don't have the detail (and wouldn't know what to do with it).