Grand Union Trains bought by First Group?

[Snow1964]

What's the latest with the London - Stirling service? All gone quiet on that front.

First Group, using Lumo brand need to rent some class 222s and unclear which month EMR will be returning them.

Now seems they are in advanced talks with Hitachi to order bimodes (or battery electric versions), and possibly will be a cascade with some of the 222s moving to new Camarthan or possibly Paignton services until new trains arrive. Even been rumours that some new ones will be 7cars so 5cars can be cascaded

I think it is watch this space for updates

 

[Zontar]

First Group, using Lumo brand need to rent some class 222s and unclear which month EMR will be returning them.

Now seems they are in advanced talks with Hitachi to order bimodes (or battery electric versions), and possibly will be a cascade with some of the 222s moving to new Camarthan or possibly Paignton services until new trains arrive. Even been rumours that some new ones will be 7cars so 5cars can be cascaded

I think it is watch this space for updates

Probably cause a problem for wsmr who I think have their eyes on 222s too

 

[ainsworth74]

Running under the Lumo brand,will it be DOO to Paignton?

It would seem likely I'd suggest that they'll use the same operational approach yes. Driver controls the doors but with various other staff members on board all services providing customer service. I don't foresee them running a service with only a driver on board Thameslink style.

 

[357]

Well no, but that reflects that the staff employed by the open access operator effectively have worse terms of employment than those employed by GWR.

Do you know that? Or is is a supposition?

The great thing about a forum such as this is the number of staff who post here. I work for an open access operator and the terms and conditions are much better than what I was on before at a normal TOC, and I get treated like an adult too. Same salary to within a few k

I'd like to point out that in this thread it's been put forward that both Lumo will only get staff by poaching from GWR, and that their Ts&C's will be inferior. Those statements can't both be true.

 

[trainswitheddy]

First signs £500m deal with Hitachi for new Open Access trains

First Group has signed a deal with Angel Trains and Hitachi to lease 14 brand new Class 80X electric, battery electric or bi-mode trains at a cost of £500m Manufactured in County Durham, the new trains will be used on the London - Carmarthen services and increase the number of…

www.railadvent.co.uk

"First Group has signed a deal with Angel Trains and Hitachi to lease 14 brand new Class 80X electric, battery electric or bi-mode trains at a cost of £500m...
...The agreement also includes an optional 13 more trains if the open-access applications are granted by the ORR."

edit: units mentioned for Hull Trains too

 

[JonathanH]

The great thing about a forum such as this is the number of staff who post here. I work for an open access operator and the terms and conditions are much better than what I was on before at a normal TOC, and I get treated like an adult too. Same salary to within a few k

Surely it is all a balance. I was trying to talk only about the choice or requirement to work on Sunday in this instance.

 

[ainsworth74]

First signs £500m deal with Hitachi for new Open Access trains

First Group has signed a deal with Angel Trains and Hitachi to lease 14 brand new Class 80X electric, battery electric or bi-mode trains at a cost of £500m Manufactured in County Durham, the new trains will be used on the London - Carmarthen services and increase the number of…

www.railadvent.co.uk

"First Group has signed a deal with Angel Trains and Hitachi to lease 14 brand new Class 80X electric, battery electric or bi-mode trains at a cost of £500m"

edit: units mentioned for Hull Trains too

Please see this existing thread for discussion of the rolling stock in more detail:

Hitachi Factory - First Group order 14 new trains with options for 13 more

The local paper, The Northern Echo, tonight is leading with a story that Kier Starmer will announce a land mark deal to save the plant. Article is behind a paywall, so the only text to read is below...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[trainswitheddy]

Please see this existing thread for discussion of the rolling stock in more detail:

Hitachi Factory - First Group order 14 new trains with options for 13 more

The local paper, The Northern Echo, tonight is leading with a story that Kier Starmer will announce a land mark deal to save the plant. Article is behind a paywall, so the only text to read is below...

www.railforums.co.uk

Oops! Didn't know a seperate thread had already been made. Many thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

Oops! Didn't know a seperate thread had already been made. Many thanks

Happens to the best of us

 

[MasterPhillips]

If First Groups contract for GWR continues until it’s official end date of 25th June 2028, as upposed to it’s “core term” expirey date, then they cannot run the Carmathen services as this would be competing against themselves. Surely this would be against the competition rules?

 

[anthony263]

Probably cause a problem for wsmr who I think have their eyes on 222s too

Rail magazine stating northern and first are looking at the class 350/2's. First looking to refurbish them with an intercity layout abd run them in pairs on the Stirling to london service instead of 221/222's.

I've attached a screenshot from the rail magazines website

 

[John R]

If First Groups contract for GWR continues until it’s official end date of 25th June 2028, as upposed to it’s “core term” expirey date, then they cannot run the Carmathen services as this would be competing against themselves. Surely this would be against the competition rules?

They are only running the service on contract from DfT, taking no revenue risk, and not determining fare strategy, so I don't see how that would be a problem.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Rail magazine stating northern and first are looking at the class 350/2's. First looking to refurbish them with an intercity layout abd run them in pairs on the Stirling to london service instead of 221/222's.

I've attached a screenshot from the rail magazines website

Rail is talking garbage. FG is not looking at class 350 units. Stirling is class 222 units and negotiations with Eversholt are at an advanced stage.

 

[Chester1]

Rail magazine stating northern and first are looking at the class 350/2's. First looking to refurbish them with an intercity layout abd run them in pairs on the Stirling to london service instead of 221/222's.

I've attached a screenshot from the rail magazines website

I reckon that is a bargaining technique to get a better deal with Eversholt for the 222s.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, it’s someone trying to drum up interest in cl.350 units!

 

[trainswitheddy]

No, it’s someone trying to drum up interest in cl.350 units!

Maybe if first ran them REALLY fast up the ECML then they could cruise down Whisker Hill without power and coast to Sheffield... Passengers being thrown out TPO style

 

[Big Sam]

What's the latest with the London - Stirling service? All gone quiet on that front.

https://x.com/philatrail/status/1865062105277210668

 

[Zontar]

https://x.com/philatrail/status/1865062105277210668

View attachment 170592

Interesting, sounds like they might be waiting for me Hitachi?

 

[BayPaul]

Interesting, sounds like they might be waiting for me Hitachi?

They've said elsewhere that it'll be 222s. I can't see that there are enough trains in this order to run to Sterling as well as the other things they've said they want to do, and it seems unlikely they'd get enough 80x delivered in time for a May 26 start.

 

[John R]

And a very clear statement here regarding 222s on the Stirling service.

Hitachi Factory - First Group order 14 new trains with options for 13 more

I think on these applications they often look for a potentially friendly MP, and add their town to the list. Always helps if you have a campaigning MP on your side! Grabd union wanted the parkway station on the SDL by felindre. I do thinkit would have done well as parkway at Swansea high...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Clarence Yard]

To be fair to Steve M, FG hasn’t officially announced it will be cl.222 units because no deal with Eversholt has yet been struck. It is still ongoing, so that the service can start in 2026.

But the world and his dog have known for months that cl.222 units are what they are going for because others who want the stock have been told/found out.

 

[skyhigh]

Rail magazine stating northern and first are looking at the class 350/2's. First looking to refurbish them with an intercity layout abd run them in pairs on the Stirling to london service instead of 221/222's.

I've attached a screenshot from the rail magazines website

No, Rail magazine are speculating. I.e. they're short of news and putting 2+2 together to come up with 5.

If Northern were seriously considering the 350s to replace 323s, why would they be bothering to repaint the incoming 323s into the correct livery?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Pity that Grand Union vision of quality service and the like are likely to be stripped back to basics. The small load freight will undoubtedly go too.

Disappointed with Yeowart to be honest, but can't blame him. Must have made a real killing.

Open Access is becoming another name for cheap and cheerful. Big shame IMHO.

 

[Wyrleybart]

And a very clear statement here regarding 222s on the Stirling service.

Hitachi Factory - First Group order 14 new trains with options for 13 more

I think on these applications they often look for a potentially friendly MP, and add their town to the list. Always helps if you have a campaigning MP on your side! Grabd union wanted the parkway station on the SDL by felindre. I do thinkit would have done well as parkway at Swansea high...

www.railforums.co.uk

AIUI FHT trains are five 5 car class 802s which are 25kV under the wires and MTU diesels not under wires.
The Lumo class 803s do not have any diesel engines and rely on OLE for propulsion

Probably cause a problem for wsmr who I think have their eyes on 222s too

I was under the impression the WSMR service is going to be operated with ex Avanti Alstom class 221s. Alstom will have a fleet of eight class 221s - the balance of the twelve going to XC, and I thought that fleet of eight WERE going to start off the Wrexhams and Stirlings albeit with different operators. Obviously that idea has gone in the bin.

 

[BayPaul]

Pity that Grand Union vision of quality service and the like are likely to be stripped back to basics. The small load freight will undoubtedly go too.

Disappointed with Yeowart to be honest, but can't blame him. Must have made a real killing.

Open Access is becoming another name for cheap and cheerful. Big shame IMHO.

Well it makes a change from expensive and miserable! For me the lumo product looks far better than the franchised operators. If all the new services happen, they'll basically be a near national intercity operator, operating to all the biggest cities except Birmingham and Liverpool, and giving proper on rail competition to GBR. Bring it on!

 

[JonathanH]

Disappointed with Yeowart to be honest, but can't blame him. Must have made a real killing.

Is the point that Grand Union simply don't have the resources to start rail services without the backing that a larger transport company like First Group has? For all we know, Grand Union may have encountered barriers in trying to set up operations, that made their access rights theoretical rather than usable.

Pity that Grand Union vision of quality service and the like are likely to be stripped back to basics.

Was that approach going to be viable?

Open Access is becoming another name for cheap and cheerful. Big shame IMHO.

How much more are passengers going to be willing to pay for a higher level of on board service? Is your premise that an open access operator would provide better service and affordable fares

 

[Wyrleybart]

Is the point that Grand Union simply don't have the resources to start rail services without the backing that a larger transport company like First Group has? For all we know, Grand Union may have encountered barriers in trying to set up operations, that made their access rights theoretical rather than usable.

Not too sure but didn't Ian Yeowart set up Grand Central whidch was sold to Arriva ?

 

[BlueLeanie]

They've said elsewhere that it'll be 222s. I can't see that there are enough trains in this order to run to Sterling as well as the other things they've said they want to do, and it seems unlikely they'd get enough 80x delivered in time for a May 26 start.

I suspect the residents of Tillicoultry would be thrilled if a service was launched to Sterling!

 

[nwales58]

Open Access is becoming another name for cheap and cheerful. Big shame IMHO.

Surprise?
Easyjet: large and profitable(ish)
Silverjet: went bust rapidly
Both started at Luton with 2 aircraft

 

[signed]

First Group, using Lumo brand need to rent some class 222s and unclear which month EMR will be returning them.

Which is a shame as 222s are much needed as XC