Grand Union Trains bought by First Group?

[swt_passenger]

Does First have the rights to the "Grand Union" name? As I understand it, First has acquired GU's London-Camarthen and London-Stirling rights. But, Grand Union themselves are still pushing ahead with their Cardiff-Edinburgh service.

See post #195. @Clarence Yard has stated quite clearly that Grand Union will not be used.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Creating demand that doesn't exist is the goal of OA/Low-Cost airlines, so that's not really surprising

I would have thought replacing lost services that were popular would be a better option. Plymouth to the north via the west coast springs to mind.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd hope Taunton as well, given that Salisbury / Waterloo can't be easily used as a cheaper alternative to GWR like it can for Bristol and Exeter. I don't know if that would make it too abstractive.

Post #93 says where it will stop.

The Group has also submitted an application to the ORR for track access rights to expand the new operation to include five return Lumo services between London Paddington and Paignton via stations including Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Exeter St David’s and Torquay from May 2028, as well as a sixth path between Highbridge & Burnham and London.

I would have thought replacing lost services that were popular would be a better option. Plymouth to the north via the west coast springs to mind.

Might be worth looking at the flow statistics from Paignton, Exeter and Plymouth to compare demand to London and demand to the North West to see why London via Bristol is the destination rather than Carlisle.

Labs - Flow Statistics - Paignton

https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/EXD/

https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/PLY/

 

[Class 170101]

I would have thought replacing lost services that were popular would be a better option. Plymouth to the north via the west coast springs to mind.

Presumably not enough track capacity nevermind insufficient demand otherwise i would have thought it would have been suggested already.

 

[BayPaul]

I suppose so,it just seems such a random destination to operate such a service. Especially when there’s only a seasonal demand.

Torbay is a big town in its own right, I suspect the local outbound market is much more important than the inbound tourist market now. I'd definitely use a lumo service from Paignton to London, over driving to Totnes for GWR.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Torbay is a big town in its own right, I suspect the local outbound market is much more important than the inbound tourist market now. I'd definitely use a lumo service from Paignton to London, over driving to Totnes for GWR.

I think many more people accept the change at Newton Abbot for London or Paignton rather than a direct service. Driving to/from Totnes probably depends on whereabouts in Torbay you live. With the Kingskerswell bypass driving to NA may be the preferred option for some. The direct service is very seasonal and reliant on tourism. Travel on one tomorrow to Paignton and see how many passengers are on board after Newton Abbot.

 

[YorkRailFan]

So will Mr Yeowart have his eyes on other opportunities to set up and sell or will he kick back, put his slippers on and count his money?

I'd like to think he'll look at other options, but somehow, I think he'll call it a day!

Grand Union is still looking at Cardiff-Edinburgh services at the moment. Independent of First Group.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Grand Union is still looking at Cardiff-Edinburgh services at the moment. Independent of First Group.

It might actually be a good one for Lumo to take if they're moving ahead with the South Wales and Paignton operations, as it'd link the separate parts of their network together. London to Scotland, London to South Wales (and Paignton), and Scotland to South Wales.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The rail media have talked about 222s to ScotRail but that doesn't conflict with some going to Grand Union because 27 units are sufficient to meet both companies needs.

Is it? AFAIK Scotrail have something like 22 diagrams to cover, and are only running 170s on some of them because HST availability is (unsurprisingly!) not nearly high enough.

What is the difference in markets with the last two that they can support a first class coach?

I suspect that's partly because First Class demand has dropped off since Hull Trains started operating. It's probably difficult to get rid of, but the market doesn't mind too much if it isn't there to start with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that's partly because First Class demand has dropped off since Hull Trains started operating. It's probably difficult to get rid of, but the market doesn't mind too much if it isn't there to start with.

You'll always sell First Class if the upgrade price is reasonable enough, so if you already have it you might as well sell upgrades (which is why I find it a bit bizarre that it's just declassified on Chiltern, though I do get why WMT don't bother because their guards so rarely do revenue that they'd never collect said upgrades anyway), but there's only any point installing it in the first place on trains that run very high loadings (as Lumo do) if you can get at least a third on top of the Standard fare and fill all the seats, because otherwise the floor space would bring in more money as Standard seating. This I suspect is the reasoning.

Those who do travel First of course love stuff like a table of 4 to themselves while Standard is full and standing, but that in reality is completely uneconomic - you need First Class fares many times Standard to make that approach profitable, and a budget operation like Lumo would never achieve that.

 

[swt_passenger]

It might actually be a good one for Lumo to take if they're moving ahead with the South Wales and Paignton operations, as it'd link the separate parts of their network together. London to Scotland, London to South Wales (and Paignton), and Scotland to South Wales.

The other possibility is that it’s a complete basket case and that’s why First haven’t mentioned it at all. Fails on “rule 1“ of open access, you normally need London at the end of your route.

 

[Chester1]

Is it? AFAIK Scotrail have something like 22 diagrams to cover, and are only running 170s on some of them because HST availability is (unsurprisingly!) not nearly high enough.

I suspect that's partly because First Class demand has dropped off since Hull Trains started operating. It's probably difficult to get rid of, but the market doesn't mind too much if it isn't there to start with.

Scotrail have to pay for the HSTs until 2030 which means replacing them early will be expensive. They have coped for a long time without 22 available sets each day. 6 to First Stirling and 21 to Scotrail would probably work financially and practically.

Sheffield by Hull Trains appears to include First Class, but then there will probably be a shared fleet making it different to Lumo etc.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Steve Montgomery gave an interview to Rail Business UK and made some interesting points:

‘We grow, they grow’: FirstGroup sets out open access rail aims

Following FirstGroup's announcement that it is to order more trains to support its growth drive in the open access market, First Rail Managing Director Steve Montgomery explains the next steps to Rail Business UK.

www.railwaygazette.com

Speaking to Rail Business UK, First Rail Managing Director Steve Montgomery says the company has ‘been able to prove with Lumo on the East Coast that we didn’t just take away from [incumbent LNER’s] patronage. They’ve grown, we’ve grown. We believe that the model now is not about revenue getting stripped out of one business, it’s about how we enhance the overall opportunity for the customer.’

This enhancement begins with a deployment strategy for the batch of 14 trains just ordered. Montgomery explains that the additional trains will enable Lumo to strengthen its current services to 10 cars at times of higher demand, and the fleet will have flexibility to be deployed across different Lumo and Hull Trains services as required. ‘As we get a more homogenous fleet, that allows us to move things around about a bit more as well to be able to serve the markets at certain times of the year.’

Some of this will reflect seasonal demand that will differ across the various service groups. ‘At Hull Trains we already run 10 cars at certain times, but we need a bit more opportunity to run more [10 car trains] on that route; both of the businesses are expanding really well and doing really well and we need to be able to look to the future.’

Montgomery goes onto say that no staff from Grand Union will transfer over to First:

Montgomery also confirms that none of the team involved in developing the GUT proposals, including Managing Director Ian Yeowart, will join FirstGroup. ‘Obviously, we have a close relationship with them, and we continue to work with them in other ideas and thinking. But none of the people will transfer over with the company.’

He does raise the point around ORR approval:

However, the next steps clearly hinge on the critical approvals on paths and certification from the regulator. ‘We are not aware of when the ORR is ready to make decisions’, Montgomery admits. ‘They have not yet indicated when they’re ready to move forward with that. We hope that will be sometime early in the new year that we’ll start to hear on certain applications. The Glasgow and Sheffield applications are just an extension of Hull and Lumo. Then we’ve got the bigger applications in that we would like to hear about sometime early next year.’

He also says mentions GWR and that the proposed Lumo services are meant to attract a new market:

‘Great Western does a great job across there; for obvious reasons, we would say it does do a good job’, Montgomery says. ‘We’re not trying to compete in that type of market, we’re trying to bring new people to the market.

‘We knew that GWR was going to go back, because it was at the end of its two year extension’, he says. While FirstGroup’s current GWR contract term ends in June 2025, ‘we think the transfer is at least 12 months away. If you listened to the announcement, they’re taking one [operator] back every three months, that would suggest Great Western is going to be with us into 2026.’

He also discusses Lumo's proposed Rochdale service:

‘One of the things that we said initially when we put the applications in, particularly for Rochdale in a follow-on order, is that we’re looking at what battery technology is available’, Montgomery explains. FirstGroup is keen to work with Hitachi to ‘understand what type of traction is available to us. Clearly, we can move to battery and we feel that’s more environmentally friendly. We would also say, hopefully, more reliable as well with less maintenance needed for the trains.’

Interestingly, the order for 13 trains from Hitachi does not cover the London-Stirling service:

FirstGroup has confirmed to Rail Business UK that it still hopes to launch the Stirling – London Euston open access service inherited from GUT by December 2027. However, a spokesman said rolling stock options for this route are still being evaluated, and it is not yet covered by the fleet orders announced on December 6. FirstGroup had hoped to deploy Class 222 DEMUs on the service, but the date when this fleet will be released by East Midlands Railway remains uncertain amid delays in commissioning the incoming Class 810 trainsets.

 

[Meerkat]

If the fleet is to be flexibly used across Lumo and Hull will they merge the brands?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not at present because they are two completely different service offers and removing the Hull Trains brand would cause major issues in Hull and the surrounding area.

 

[Spaceship323]

Hull trains will do the Sheffield to Kings Cross, Lumo will extend their East Coast operation to Glasgow as well as starting the Carmarthen to London

 

[Zontar]

Article in rail.
Interestingly suggests summer 25 start for london-stirling service.

 

[800001]

Article in rail.
Interestingly suggests summer 25 start for london-stirling service.

Although the same article says the start date is still being ‘discussed’.

The start date will depend on when they gain some 222s from EMR.

With still no sign of an 810 heading to EMR , I find summer 25 to be too soon.

 

[Melancholia]

I wonder where train crew depots will be located for the new London - Carmarthen/Paignton services once they do start running.

I'd expect a bit of a flood of transfers from current GWR to Lumo.

 

[popeter45]

would Lumo West be able to use the Maliphant Depo?

 

[800001]

would Lumo West be able to use the Maliphant Depo?

If there is capacity and they pay the required cost for use.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Maliphant will come “free” with the Train Supply Agreement with Hitachi.

Getting space there will be interesting, especially at night.

 

[Towers]

I wonder where train crew depots will be located for the new London - Carmarthen/Paignton services once they do start running.

I'd expect a bit of a flood of transfers from current GWR to Lumo.

Just the one, somewhere in London presumably? Where are Lumo’s current crews based?

 

[800001]

Maliphant will come “free” with the Train Supply Agreement with Hitachi.

Getting space there will be interesting, especially at night.

Is Maliphant an Hitachi’s depot? Never realised!

 

[Towers]

Maliphant will come “free” with the Train Supply Agreement with Hitachi.

Getting space there will be interesting, especially at night.

A use for Landore, perhaps?

 

[BZ1044]

Just the one, somewhere in London presumably? Where are Lumo’s current crews based?

Lumo current crews are based in Newcastle, with crew lodging/night stopping at both ends of the route in EDB and LON.

 

[fgwrich]

Is Maliphant an Hitachi’s depot? Never realised!

Yes, as are all GWR IET depots barring Laira (North Pole, Stoke Giffard, Maliphant). Slightly different to the situation on LNER where only Doncaster Carr is a new build, with Bounds Green and Craigentinny changing over to Hitachi Depots upon the changeover to IETs.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, as are all GWR IET depots barring Laira (North Pole, Stoke Giffard, Maliphant). Slightly different to the situation on LNER where only Doncaster Carr is a new build, with Bounds Green and Craigentinny changing over to Hitachi Depots upon the changeover to IETs.

I was under thr impression Laira had gone over to Hitachi too.

 

[The Middle]

Form P now published to add the Paignton service to the Carmarthen track access.

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/18.12.2024-First%20Rail%20Wales&Western-Section%2022A-3rd%20SA-Closes%2001.02.2025/FRWW%203rd%20Supplemental%20Form%20P.docx

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Its interesting that its a different legal name to the existing Lumo & proposed Rochdale services which is East Coast Trains Limited vs the Carmathan and Paignton services being First Rail Wales and Western Limited. Is the Stirling service also likely to be Lumo?