Great British Railways announcement causes Trainline shares to tumble

[Grumpy Git]

The LMR service from Lime St. does provide a more affordable route to London for a footie awayday when journey time is of a secondary consideration.

 

[Ianno87]

I think the loss of the current LNR/WMT walk up fares will be a massive blow for fares on the WCML. They provide an attractive to the Any Permitted fares priced by Avanti without the need to book in Advance of specify which train one is to travel on.

Those ones provide genuine market differentiation, so might well stay as "local trains only" or some such. Or Advances.

And if this is covered by "Advances" that does or necessarily have to equate to "purchased in advance" - merely a ticket fixed to a specific train purchased at the ticket machine before departure.

 

[jon0844]

I agree quite a lot of that. The Trainline may not have made any dishonest claims but they certainly have made quite a few at the very least disingenuous claims over the years. They are hardly upfront about their fees either.

Exactly. They don't lie, but they bank on people misreading the wording. Their advertising doesn't claim they're cheaper than anyone else, rather they can get you tickets that are cheaper (but so does every other ticket seller). If you believe that means a £10 ticket might now cost less, rather than you being steered towards a cheaper ticket (of a different type, e.g. advance, off-peak etc) then that's not their problem.

The earlier reference about some people being happy to pay for a branded paracetamol tablet isn't really the same. I am sure many people incorrectly believe there will be some different composition or ingredients in the more expensive tablets. Again, that's the fault of the customer NOT the company selling an aspirin for 20 or 30 times the cost.

As for Heathrow Express; that's a premium service. It might not be necessary to use it (I have had issues with the baggage hall ticket sellers that get people to buy tickets before they've been able to consider cheaper options) but it IS a faster route into London.

Trainline doesn't do anything special, besides slick advertising to make people think it's better. And the advertising in the past about being a sheep was clearly an attempt to make Trainline look like it was some revolutionary service that got you the discounts the incumbent ticket sellers didn't want you to know about or something.

Fair play to them for the clever marketing, as I am always telling people they don't need to pay a booking fee to buy a ticket but still people think it's worth it for getting access to cheaper tickets.

[As an aside; I think people have said many times that the services they offer to businesses are different and can save a lot of time and money for companies, and as such gives them an edge]

 

[Ianno87]

Trainline doesn't do anything special, besides slick advertising to make people think it's better.

Isn't that the whole point of advertising? Convince you of something you/want need when you don't.

Look at car adverts (for example) always driving cars along pristine, empty roads...

Furthermore, selling folk tickets via the trainline is better than not selling folk tickets at all...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if this is covered by "Advances" that does or necessarily have to equate to "purchased in advance" - merely a ticket fixed to a specific train purchased at the ticket machine before departure.

Yes, good point. They could choose to release fixed price "Advances" in near unlimited quantities on every train and to promote that.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, good point. They could choose to release fixed price "Advances" in near unlimited quantities on every train and to promote that.

Which is (near enough) what Northern do already. I can buy a Man ViVicotria-Leeds "Advance" for £7.50 departing in 45 minutes time...

We (as a forum) just need to get past the idea that "Advance" means a BR-style APEX, purchased by queuing up at the local BR travel centre a week before to watch a helpful member of staff punch the keys of an APTIS machine

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is (near enough) what Northern do already. I can buy a Man ViVicotria-Leeds "Advance" for £7.50 departing in 45 minutes time...

We (as a forum) just need to get past the idea that "Advance" means a BR-style APEX, purchased by queuing up at the local BR travel centre a week before to watch a helpful member of staff punch the keys of an APTIS machine

Maybe the term Advance needs to be binned in favour of "Value" or something (which is what Virgin used to call them when they first did the singles).

Bin the admin fee for a change (or reduce it heavily) and for most people the utility is similar to the cheapo walk ups. The desires for flexibility on here well exceed those of the general public.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Maybe the term Advance needs to be binned in favour of "Value" or something (which is what Virgin used to call them when they first did the singles).

Bin the admin fee for a change (or reduce it heavily) and for most people the utility is similar to the cheapo walk ups. The desires for flexibility on here well exceed those of the general public.

APOD Advance Purchase On the Day

 

[Ianno87]

Bin the admin fee for a change (or reduce it heavily) and for most people the utility is similar to the cheapo walk ups. The desires for flexibility on here well exceed those of the general public.

Once you are at the station, your train is de-facto fixed. 99% of passengers don't care about stopping off along the way (and if they do, re-booking at the point where the journey is broken solves that)

 

[greyman42]

Do you mean simply because they charge a fee? There's a lot more to the company than that. See beyond that and they are actually a very good company.

What is there to see for the passenger beyond the best value tickets, which trainline do not offer?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will Merseyrail be taken over by GBR?
What do we expect to see happen to the LNR/WMT fares between Liverpool and London?

No to Merseyrail, as it's a devolved concession to local government (Merseytravel) who set the fares/services and collect the revenue.
The ticketing to places outside Merseyrail will no doubt be GBR-type as it is now, with a revenue split with GBR.
GBR will own and operate the infrastructure, though, as NR does now.
I'm sure Merseyrail will continue to have local multi-mode tickets outside the GBR system.
GBR doesn't really change the setup for PTEs or TfL.

On LNR fares, I suspect GBR (as BR did) will want to maximise revenue for the entire setup, not just a segment of it.
If LNR fares grow the WCML market overall, the fares will stay; but if they just cannibalise Avanti's revenue then they won't.
These quandaries exist all over the system after 25 years of individual TOC changes on routes with more than one TOC.
XC's First Class fares are another horror show that might be ended (unless GBR wants to keep the same policy).
The job of pricing manager for GBR will be a nice one to have, but quite challenging!
Also that of the person responsible for deciding the "simplified" peak hour restrictions to apply to the whole network.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I suspect so. There are many complications in the current fares structure but we need to be very aware of good value fares being removed. It would not surprise me if we see the removal of things like LNR/WMT only fares on the WCML, Weekend Super Off Peak fares in GTR land, Northern Only fares etc etc.

We also need to be very alert to the removal of fares regulation which, while far from perfect, has at least kept a lid on fares. For example, LNER would love to charge more for leisure passengers to travel between Newcastle and London on Sunday afternoons but they can't thanks to fares regulation. Government think that fares regulation is an outdated 1990s concept but the alternative will probably be far worse.


Just look at something like the telephone network when it was Government owned. 6 months to get a line installed, you could only rent a handset, appalling choice of styles and colours.

Translate this to the Government owned railway and every time someone wants to upgrade a website it'll end up going through endless committees, funding hurdles, then the unions will want their say. Whenever Government gets involved it's like turning a super tanker when in reality a speed boat is needed.

Frae regulation as in independent companies being regulated against a compliance matrix is clearly dead. From now on (indeed since last year) the Government is regulating itself, so expect the 'regulation' to be a form of public commitment by Government to voters; not some magic formula that can't be amended.
The big difference is under the GBR model, TOCs will no longer be in charge of any fares except for those that GBR may expressly make part of an operating contract; and even then they won't be TOC fares, they will be GBR fares even if the contractor incentivised to optimise them. This doesn't mean the end of train specific fares, and indeed situations such as the LNW offer makes sense because it drives additional revenue by promoting a distinct alternative (slower/cheaper). But I expect that activities where one TOC simply cannibalises another's' revenue will cease, as will a lot of split ticketing opportunities caused by one TOC pricing across another TOC and leaving those in the know able to exploit the contradictions. Headline fare levels are highly political and won't rocket even if there isn't contractually-enforced regulation. However closing loopholes is something that I expect will be more likely to happen in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

APOD Advance Purchase On the Day

Too technical. It needs a nice, memorable brand. Value really did work for me in emphasising that they are tickets for the price sensitive.

 

[tspaul26]

Too technical. It needs a nice, memorable brand. Value really did work for me in emphasising that they are tickets for the price sensitive.

‘Fixed’ and ‘Flexi’, might perhaps do the trick.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Fare levels are also capacity related.
XC's problem is that it doesn't have the seats to need to go discounting all over the place to fill them.
Meanwhile, Avanti close by has plenty of capacity at certain times with 11-car trains so is keener to offer discount fares, same for LNER.
BR also flexed fares depending on the capacity it offered, "pricing off" where there was no benefit in discounting.
GBR will probably follow the same path, depending on how it allocates rolling stock to demand.
BR also hoiked fares on newly upgraded lines, it's not a new phenomenon.
Lower quality regional lines had lower fare increases.

 

[skyhigh]

What is there to see for the passenger beyond the best value tickets, which trainline do not offer?

To be fair, trainline are now automatically offering split tickets, which the TOC websites don't. Yes, a fair proportion of passengers know about other split ticket websites but for a significant number the trainline app has suddenly started offering cheaper fares than any other app (and they don't know or care why)

 

[Deafdoggie]

What is there to see for the passenger beyond the best value tickets, which trainline do not offer?

Trainline do offer the best value tickets. Why people on here are so against them they can't even see that, I don't know.
I guess what you meant was they offer the best value tickets, but in some (and only some) cases add a booking fee. That doesn't stop the ticket being good value. This fee can be less than other sites fees for offering split tickets. Because its trainline though, people on here would rather pay more elsewhere.
Trainline also offer combined train tickets and accommodation or theatre tickets or all three. Paying a booking fee (if required) may work out far better value to get the package deal. But people on here are so against Trainline they'd rather just pay more.

 

[BluePenguin]

I feel as though I am part of the price sensitive demographic. When looking to buy tickets I have a estimate of the amount I am willing to pay. If I can find tickets for around that amount I will travel and otherwise will not. If the journey is essential and must happen then I usually end up travelling at a very inconvenient time.

I doubt many other people in the same boat would have a problem with buying advance on the day tickets. If it means more people travelling I doubt the railway minds either. However this would inevitably lead to nobody buying flexible return tickets unless they are on expenses. Do many people really need a crystal ball to tell when they are coming back? So much easier to look for advance tickets nearer the time

 

[Wallsendmag]

To be fair, trainline are now automatically offering split tickets, which the TOC websites don't.

Most TOC sites don’t

 

[Bletchleyite]

‘Fixed’ and ‘Flexi’, might perhaps do the trick.

Possibly, though in airline terms they are semi flexible as they can be changed under certain conditions.

I am inclined to think that a brand that doesn't refer to the specific T&C but is memorable would work better.

I am not sure there was a lot wrong with Value, Saver, SuperSaver, Business Saver and Open. The issue that needed simplifying back then was the disparate TOC specific T&Cs - the actual names were very well known, and things like unrestricted 8A Off Peaks just confuse people.

 

[ABB125]

Most TOC sites don’t

Which TOCs do offer split tickets?

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER is in the process of rolling it out

 

[ABB125]

LNER is in the process of rolling it out

I didn't know that, thanks.

 

[g22]

LNER is in the process of rolling it out

Will LNER offer split tickets for any journey that may include travel partially on LNER or just for Journeys wholly on LNER?

 

[Obobru]

The below are sites where Trainline runs the ticket booking. They used to have a lot more but when franchises change they often change to systems they use in their other franchises.

ScotRail
TFW Rail
London Northwestern
Cross Country
Greater Anglia
West Midlands

 

[CyrusWuff]

To be fair, trainline are now automatically offering split tickets, which the TOC websites don't. Yes, a fair proportion of passengers know about other split ticket websites but for a significant number the trainline app has suddenly started offering cheaper fares than any other app (and they don't know or care why)

All well and good until there's Engineering Work and your "SplitSave" ticket isn't valid via an alternative route because said route doesn't go anywhere near the split point.

 

[Deafdoggie]

All well and good until there's Engineering Work and your "SplitSave" ticket isn't valid via an alternative route because said route doesn't go anywhere near the split point.

That applies to any split ticketing website

 

[lyndhurst25]

No to Merseyrail, as it's a devolved concession to local government (Merseytravel) who set the fares/services and collect the revenue.
The ticketing to places outside Merseyrail will no doubt be GBR-type as it is now, with a revenue split with GBR.
GBR will own and operate the infrastructure, though, as NR does now.
I'm sure Merseyrail will continue to have local multi-mode tickets outside the GBR system.
GBR doesn't really change the setup for PTEs or TfL.

I am hoping that GBR put some pressure on Merseyrail to abolish some of the local ticketing anomalies compared the rest of the network e.g. lack of ability to collect prebooked tickets at stations, no Railcard discount on off-peak tickets (the Day Saver being Merseyrail’s defacto off-peak fare for many journeys).

 

[greyman42]

Trainline down another 5% today.