Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[AdamWW]

Yes, I'd have noticed - but I'd have thought someone was trying, and failing, to add a 3-dimensional quality to it. It will work badly (i.e. it won't!) for any actual 3-dimensional double arrow sign, and there are lots and lots of them about already.

The revised version of the logo has the proportions and some of the angles changed slightly, and there are no longer two different versions depending on whether it's dark on light or vice versa.

I didn't know it had changed until I read about it - I couldn't see the difference.

Are some people misinterpreting the drawings on Twitter in red, black and white showing the new version overlaid on the old one as if that was the new logo itself? (Which would be pretty terrible if it was).

On the double arrow: if you hadn't been told it had been changed, would you have noticed? Apart from the colours, the RDG version already has slightly altered dimensions.

This interview with the designer of the double arrow might be interesting to some: https://www.creativereview.co.uk/british-rail-logo/

The changes to the dimensions in the RDG version are considerably less subtle, and I could see the difference on that one (never mind the colours) without having it pointed out to me.

Yes that interview is very interesting - thanks for the link.

 

[jpaul81]

I think plain white with bronze/champagne and black elemenents would look nice on the 'intercity' services.
Together with the BR logo and a sub brand to denote the line served

 

[221101 Voyager]

The only stations I can think of without it are London Overground stations not served by any other TOC, where some stations had it removed on rebranding, and some (new) stations have never had one.

True, I’d not considered that!

 

[BrianW]

True, I’d not considered that!

They're on many a road sign too.

 

[AdamWW]

They're on many a road sign too.

And many, many, many tickets.

 

[Devonian]

I've never seen a national rail station without the classic double arrows somewhere on signage.

Conspicuous by its absence on the signage at Exeter Central: though there is a solitary bus-stop sized sign high up on a nearby lamp post.

the white ends and the weird shadow. It adds nothing beneficial to me.

You will no doubt be glad to know that those are not part of a revised logo: they were just the old and new logos stacked on top of each other to show the differences. The new logo, I am glad to say, remains flat and single colour. The changes to the shape are very small.

 

[Gareth]

Oh. Thank god for that.

Although, one has to wonder why bother changing it at all?

If this is it, then, yes - I can't really tell the difference...

 

[221101 Voyager]

Oh. Thank god for that.

Although, one has to wonder why bother changing it at all?

If this is it, then, yes - I can't really tell the difference...

View attachment 96805

Ah, that looks superb!

Just like the original funnily enough! Just goes to show don't mess with something that isn't broken!

 

[randyrippley]

Rail Britannia
Albion Rail

 

[py_megapixel]

I think plain white with bronze/champagne and black elemenents would look nice on the 'intercity' services.

I don't like plain white liveries, especially on intercity trains, as they end up looking like imitations of Shinkansen (Japan) or ICE (Germany), rather than a quality service in their own right!

I wonder if some way could be found to modernise the "InterCity 125" branded livery for modern use. The colour scheme looks a little dated, but I'd love to see "Pendolino", "Azuma", "Voyager" or "Javelin" emblazoned on the side in Rail Alphabet!

 

[221101 Voyager]

I don't like plain white liveries, especially on intercity trains, as they end up looking like imitations of Shinkansen (Japan) or ICE (Germany), rather than a quality service in their own right!

I wonder if some way could be found to modernise the "InterCity 125" branded livery for modern use. The colour scheme looks a little dated, but I'd love to see "Pendolino", "Azuma", "Voyager" or "Javelin" emblazoned on the side in Rail Alphabet!

Ooh, now that I like the sound of!

 

[YorksLad12]

Are some people misinterpreting the drawings on Twitter in red, black and white showing the new version overlaid on the old one as if that was the new logo itself? (Which would be pretty terrible if it was).

I think they might be. Pretty sure the new version is the version that appears in the report, which has no 3D or mixed palette elements to it. My understanding of the Twitter thread referenced above is that instead of having single-colour and reversed-out versions we just have the one version.

 

[Gareth]

The version I posted is from the GBR Wikipedia article. It explicitly says that's the updated version.

 

[AdamWW]

The version I posted is from the GBR Wikipedia article.

Yes - and it doesn't have the white ends and 3-d effect that people have commented on - whereas the image showing a comparison of the two versions does.

The version I posted is from the GBR Wikipedia article. It explicitly says that's the updated version.

Looking at the page now, it says: "British Rail Double Arrow logo, an updated version of which will be used by GBR"
I.e. this is not the updated version.

 

[Annetts key]

It works on everyone, whether they admit it or not

The branding on trains, stations, railway web sites, etc. makes absolutely no difference to me. I don’t buy tickets very often (even though I travel by train a lot) and when I do, I’m either locked in to one type (an annual season ticket available on a line served by only two operators, but CrossCountry don’t run any trains that are suitable for my needs) and when I occasionally need to buy any other type of ticket, I search the various online web sites for the cheapest ticket or tickets.

What is far more important to me is the reliability, the regular service, the cleanliness, and how comfortable the train is.

So please explain how you think it works on me?

And how it works on passengers who are in a similar situation?

 

[jpaul81]

I don't like plain white liveries, especially on intercity trains, as they end up looking like imitations of Shinkansen (Japan) or ICE (Germany), rather than a quality service in their own right!

I wonder if some way could be found to modernise the "InterCity 125" branded livery for modern use. The colour scheme looks a little dated, but I'd love to see "Pendolino", "Azuma", "Voyager" or "Javelin" emblazoned on the side in Rail Alphabet!

I was thinking more a black horizontal band covering the windows with maybe contrasting bronze doors on a white background.
Maybe an 'off white' or cream would work better. I think it would look quite classy with prominent BR logos and Rail Alphabet typeface on the side of each carriage.
I would say the current azuma livery is closer to ICE or shinkansen in terms of design, but i take your point the old intercity liveries.
I still think the the later swallow liveries look pretty timeless.

 

[birchesgreen]

So please explain how you think it works on me?

And how it works on passengers who are in a similar situation?

I said marketing works on everyone, I didn't say railway marketing though that is probably true too but maybe less where there is a monopoly or sole provider.

 

[py_megapixel]

I was thinking more a black horizontal band covering the windows with maybe contrasting bronze doors on a white background.

That sounds reasonably nice, though maybe use of the door colour to convey some information would be a good idea. Different colours for different classes of travel maybe.

 

[jpaul81]

That sounds reasonably nice, though maybe use of the door colour to convey some information would be a good idea. Different colours for different classes of travel maybe.

yeah... maybe gold, silver and bronze to denote business, first and standard class.
You could be on to something lol....

 

[birchesgreen]

Can the doors be different contrasting colours under accessibility guidelines or do they have to be the same?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Having read about the proposals, I'm excited to see the new identity being gradually rolled out.

It will be nice to have a consistant brand and appearance. Especially seeing the double arrows on trains again!

Hopefully the simplified ticketing will make travel easier. Pity it won't be cheaper though!

I shall make up some more livery proposals and see what you guys think!

 

[Gareth]

Right, so to clear this up, I've separated the overlaid logos and this is the comparison between old & new...

 

[jpaul81]

Can the doors be different contrasting colours under accessibility guidelines or do they have to be the same?

not sure tbh

 

[py_megapixel]

yeah... maybe gold, silver and bronze to denote business, first and standard class.
You could be on to something lol....

That sounds like a good idea - in fact, why not go one step further and name the classes accordingly?

Bronze class = the normal class of travel, equivalent to Standard now
Silver class = nicer seats than Standard, a slight upgrade - equivalent to Avanti's new Standard Premium or most First Class on current suburban stock
Gold class = much more comfort with free food/drink/extra perks - equivalent to current Inter City first class
Just board through the door colour shown on your ticket. (Clearly you would have to write the name of the class on the door as well, for the benefit of those with colourblindness or similar conditions, but that could easily be done.)

That seems like exactly the kind of simple scheme that would be beneficial

Can the doors be different contrasting colours under accessibility guidelines or do they have to be the same?

Northern's livery has some doors blue and some white

 

[mmh]

Can the doors be different contrasting colours under accessibility guidelines or do they have to be the same?

They can be, there are examples in the awful Avanti West Coast livery, where some doors are light against dark, and some dark against light. Whether they should be is another matter - to me, such liveries might meet the letter of the requirements but they ride roughshod over the purpose of the requirements.

Grand Central have a more agreeable example - their doors to first class are (were?) a different colour. Not sure what was wrong with a big number 1 though.

 

[AdamWW]

Right, so to clear this up, I've separated the overlaid logos and this is the comparison between old & new...

I think that's actually more informative than the overlaid version.

It makes it very obvious that the diagonals get wider towards the ends in the original, which I believe is supposed to make them look parallel to counter an optical illusion.

I prefer the one onf the right, and I think if I had to guess which was the original I'd have gone for that.

 

[mmh]

That sounds like a good idea - in fact, why not go one step further and name the classes accordingly?

Bronze class = the normal class of travel, equivalent to Standard now
Silver class = nicer seats than Standard, a slight upgrade - equivalent to Avanti's new Standard Premium or most First Class on current suburban stock
Gold class = much more comfort with free food/drink/extra perks - equivalent to current Inter City first class
Just board through the door colour shown on your ticket. (Clearly you would have to write the name of the class on the door as well, for the benefit of those with colourblindness or similar conditions, but that could easily be done.)

That seems like exactly the kind of simple scheme that would be beneficial


Northern's livery has some doors blue and some white

Bronze isn't very distinguishable from gold.

Plus, if the idea is to standardise and reduce differences and confusion, introducing a scheme which can only be applied to a small proportion of trains with first class seems unwise - many (most?) trains with first class cannot have a "first class door," and marking their doors as restricted would lead to very unwelcome effects on boarding time and platform and on-train congestion.

 

[YorksLad12]

Can the doors be different contrasting colours under accessibility guidelines or do they have to be the same?

Northern's livery has some doors blue and some white

Passenger doors should be a high contrast; cab doors can be in the same colour as the base livery. In Northern's case they have a mixed fleet so sometimes the end door is in a blue segment (so white) instead of blue (like most of the rest are).

One idea I mentioned in passing in Times Past was to have a contrast stripe the same colour as the doors underneath the windows, which you could then follow left or right to find the door. In Northern's case you'd either have a white train with a blue stripe and passenger doors or (more likely) a blue train with a white stripe and passenger doors.

 

[Gareth]

I prefer the one onf the right, and I think if I had to guess which was the original I'd have gone for that.

I think I might agree, actually.

 

[mmh]

Passenger doors should be a high contrast; cab doors can be in the same colour as the base livery. In Northern's case they have a mixed fleet so sometimes the end door is in a blue segment (so white) instead of blue (like most of the rest are).

One idea I mentioned in passing in Times Past was to have a contrast stripe the same colour as the doors underneath the windows, which you could then follow left or right to find the door. In Northern's case you'd either have a white train with a blue stripe and passenger doors or (more likely) a blue train with a white stripe and passenger doors.

I'm afraid I think that's rather missing the point of contrasting doors, which is to indicate the door, not indicate the direction it's in. It was intended to help people with poor longer range detail. It's unfortunate that so many liveries are designed without apparent thought into what they are actually for.