Great western electrification

[tbtc]

Oh so close its 222

Since he mentioned "electrified" and "Skipton", I think he was right first time with 333

Nice though our 222s are in Sheffield, they don't serve Skipton and they don't have pantographs...

 

[90019]

You must face reality, they are at the end of their time. We must electrify because it is the only way forward. I don't hold with all this global warming bo****ks, but it makes sense to reduce pollution wherever possible.
As regards the rapidly decreasing energy sources, thats exactly why we must electrify. Diesels use a heck of a lot more of those resources whereas the new nuclear power stations that will come online will take care of all the extra electricity.

Something must be wrong! I agree with you!

Climate change is happening, that much can't be denied, but I believe our effect on it is minimal, if anything, especially considering that the temperature of the earth is constantly fluctuating. There's also the fact that we're still technically in an ice age, until the point at which the polar ice caps melt - so it's not as if it's never happened before.
However, you can't get away from the fact that oil is a finite resource, and the more we do to save it now, the longer it will last.
For power generation, nuclear is the way forward, in both fission and fusion form, though the latter moreso. Renewables, such as wave, tidal, hydroelectric, wind, etc. have their place supplementing nuclear, but we can't rely on them alone.

 

[LE Greys]

Climate change is happening, that much can't be denied, but I believe our effect on it is minimal, if anything, especially considering that the temperature of the earth is constantly fluctuating. There's also the fact that we're still technically in an ice age, until the point at which the polar ice caps melt - so it's not as if it's never happened before.

I ought to point out that it's fluctuating the wrong way! The temperature ought to be going down from a peak around 100 BC to a trough around 11,000 AD. Yet it's going up! hock:

However, you can't get away from the fact that oil is a finite resource, and the more we do to save it now, the longer it will last.
For power generation, nuclear is the way forward, in both fission and fusion form, though the latter moreso. Renewables, such as wave, tidal, hydroelectric, wind, etc. have their place supplementing nuclear, but we can't rely on them alone.

Well said!

 

[Pumbaa]

Something must be wrong! I agree with you!

Climate change is happening, that much can't be denied, but I believe our effect on it is minimal, if anything, especially considering that the temperature of the earth is constantly fluctuating. There's also the fact that we're still technically in an ice age, until the point at which the polar ice caps melt - so it's not as if it's never happened before.
However, you can't get away from the fact that oil is a finite resource, and the more we do to save it now, the longer it will last.
For power generation, nuclear is the way forward, in both fission and fusion form, though the latter moreso. Renewables, such as wave, tidal, hydroelectric, wind, etc. have their place supplementing nuclear, but we can't rely on them alone.

Technically in an inter-glacial, not an ice age

If I listed my thoughts on it, we'd be here a long time and very off-topic. So I won't!

 

[90019]

Technically in an inter-glacial, not an ice age

Same difference

 

[route:oxford]

Forget Nuclear...

Electricity for the GWML should come from a Severn Barrage, the electrified line should also go across the top of the barrage.

 

[starrymarkb]

Chances are it will be Nuclear, with a bit of Coal from Didcot, Wind From Cornwall and Gas from Langage/Avonmouth. The South West gets most of its power from Nuclear at Hinckley Point and Oldbury

 

[Metroland]

The South West gets it's power from the National Grid like everywhere else in the UK

- Nuclear: Expensive, no nuclear plant exists anywhere in the world without some sort of public subsidy. Cost of decommissioning of current nuclear power stations is ~ £90 billion

- Wind: Somewhat variable, although placement of wind farms helps with overall generation demand. Also expensive, especially off-shore wind. Likely supply a around 25% max of UK current capacity.

- Solar: Limited use in UK, only really helpful for hot water in domestic dwellings.

- Clean Coal: Large scale clean coal technology does not exist to date: Expensive and may have problems that have not yet been solved. Traditional coal generation is very carbon intensive.

- Oil: Only large oil fired power station is around Fawley and is currently mothballed. Oil getting harder to find and more expensive. Expected world peak 2010-2025, after which supply declines. Shale oil hugely polluting and energy intensive.

- Gas: Currently produces the lion's share of UK generation. UK now a net importer of energy all will become increasingly reliant on Far east and former USSR supplies. Much evidence oil and gas used as a political weapon, highly risking being dependent on foreign sources in long term.

- Biomass: Limited use and most supplies currently tapped out (Sewage works, waste products). Some biofules conflict with food supplies or require large amounts of fresh water. Fresh water supplies are current being used at an unsustainable rate through most parts of the world, water tables even in developed counties are being drained at an alarming rate. Possible fuel using algae, main problem is cost.

- Wave/barrage: Expensive, and barrages hugely damaging to eco systems. Possible barrage sites: Wash, Severn, etc

- Hydro: Most UK sites currently deployed, apart from small scale. Limited generation capacity in UK.

Pick your poison, but there are *no* magic bullets for the UK or world's energy problems.

 

[visibleimagery]

I hate to say it but i think the great western needs to be electrified as a matter of urgency considering the age of some of the rolling stock which is used.

in my opinion the following should be electrfied:

Great Western: London -Oxford/Swansea/Bristol/Exeter St Davids (Perhaps to Plymouth or even Penzance?)

Midland Mainline

Manchester - Blackpool
Manchester - Liverpool
Bassingstoke - Exeter
Newport - Crewe
North Wales coast
Cardiff Valley Lines
Bristol - Birmingham

Reading - Gatwick?

Thames Branches: ie Slough - Windsor

Personally I disagree, we don't want ugly overhead electrification messing up our beautiful countryside, the rolling stock is fine too.

...More importantly the costs and time-scales aren't even worth considering, not when there are better ways to spend money...

 

[Aictos]

Personally I disagree, we don't want ugly overhead electrification messing up our beautiful countryside, the rolling stock is fine too.

...More importantly the costs and time-scales aren't even worth considering, not when there are better ways to spend money...

You haven't been to York then, a fine example on how to electrify a route but at the same time keep the station looking majestic as it's always been.

 

[starrymarkb]

Presumably a lineside photographer, they aren't keen on wires spoiling their shots

 

[ukrob]

HSTs DO NOT NEED REPLACING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you actually traveled on one,

Personally I disagree, we don't want ugly overhead electrification messing up our beautiful countryside, the rolling stock is fine too.

...More importantly the costs and time-scales aren't even worth considering, not when there are better ways to spend money...

Some enthusiasts need to get into the real world from time to time.

 

[LE Greys]

To whoever suggested Reading-Gatwick, should it be overhead or third rail? If the latter, should it be transferred to Southern, or perhaps SWT?

 

[Aictos]

To whoever suggested Reading-Gatwick, should it be overhead or third rail? If the latter, should it be transferred to Southern, or perhaps SWT?

Well seeing as Waterloo to Reading is already electrified on the 3rd rail system, it makes sense for the Reading to Gatwick to be also electrified to the 3rd rail system especially as it's only a little bit of infill stuff and you can run 3rd rail EMUs on the Reading to Gatwick route and displace the 166s/165s to the other Thames Valley routes.

The only parts of the Reading to Gatwick to be electrified is:

Reigate to Shalford Junction
Aldershot South Junction to Wokingham Junction

So I would say to pass it to South West Trains on the basis that they already serve Reading from Waterloo.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Forget Nuclear...

Electricity for the GWML should come from a Severn Barrage, the electrified line should also go across the top of the barrage.

Never happen. They have been banging on about that for the past 25 years, and could do it for another 25. The central problem is that it will cause the top half of the severn to silt up. The canadians who built a similar barrage have sworn never to do the same thing again apparently. There is also the other problem about what happens if Gloucester floods again. At the moment you have the Severn for all the water to drain out of. Build a Hoover style dam and it gets a bit more problematic....

There are alternative means to get the power out the severn, the question is does anyone have the imagination or the money to do it? Destroying the enviroment in order to save it strikes me as a bit of a dead end.

 

[tbtc]

Well seeing as Waterloo to Reading is already electrified on the 3rd rail system, it makes sense for the Reading to Gatwick to be also electrified to the 3rd rail system especially as it's only a little bit of infill stuff and you can run 3rd rail EMUs on the Reading to Gatwick route and displace the 166s/165s to the other Thames Valley routes.

The only parts of the Reading to Gatwick to be electrified is:

Reigate to Shalford Junction
Aldershot South Junction to Wokingham Junction

So I would say to pass it to South West Trains on the basis that they already serve Reading from Waterloo.

IMHO this should get the go ahead before any "large scale" electrification - it gives a much better ratio of "DMUs replaced by EMUs" to "miles of track electrified " (since both ends of the route are third rail, so only a small stretch in the middle needs doing.

Trouble is, there are fewer votes to get from small scale improvements like this than there are from a "big bang" approach

 

[Aictos]

IMHO this should get the go ahead before any "large scale" electrification - it gives a much better ratio of "DMUs replaced by EMUs" to "miles of track electrified " (since both ends of the route are third rail, so only a small stretch in the middle needs doing.

Trouble is, there are fewer votes to get from small scale improvements like this than there are from a "big bang" approach

My view exactly, the Turbos could even be used to boost capacity on the Oxford even if that won't be a popular move.

 

[royaloak]

The only parts of the Reading to Gatwick to be electrified is:

Reigate to Shalford Junction
Aldershot South Junction to Wokingham Junction

So I would say to pass it to South West Trains on the basis that they already serve Reading from Waterloo.

SWT, so I can drive somewhere else

 

[Aictos]

SWT, so I can drive somewhere else

Took your time didn't you,

 

[royaloak]

Partaking of the odd half of shandy (or 2 )

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

One thing I wonder, would electrification improve the case for reopening some of the stations between Swindon and Didcot? Wantage is already campaigning for Wantage Road to reopen, and I gather the Military College at Shrivenham would be happen to see the station reopen. Wouldnt the better acceleration give the opportunity to reopen some of the others as well?

 

[Zoe]

One thing I wonder, would electrification improve the case for reopening some of the stations between Swindon and Didcot?

I doubt it, there would be nothing to call there as with Corsham now.

 

[LE Greys]

If they were doing it properly, they would build four tracks from Didcot to Wooton Basset, along with the station reopenings (including Wooton Basset and Badminton). Add a flyover east of Swindon, and you could have an hourly Gloucester service, stoppers to Swindon and a better route for freight heading to/from Bristol and the South West. Expensive, but better to do it now than some other time.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I doubt it, there would be nothing to call there as with Corsham now.

Well Challow and Uffington would probably be impractical admittedly. Its quite interesting to look on Streetview as Wantage road is now. The road access to it would be quite good, and there is lots of room for a decent carpark.Wantage Parkway?


Re Babminton, I passed there recently and was rather surprised to see that it still looks in pretty good external condition. Im surprised there was never any plan to open it up during the Babminton horse trials, and shut it the rest of the year.

 

[The Planner]

If they were doing it properly, they would build four tracks from Didcot to Wooton Basset, along with the station reopenings (including Wooton Basset and Badminton). Add a flyover east of Swindon, and you could have an hourly Gloucester service, stoppers to Swindon and a better route for freight heading to/from Bristol and the South West. Expensive, but better to do it now than some other time.

Why ? the headway down there is 4 minutes as it is and you have got the loops at Swindon, Challow and Steventon anyway. The only station worth opening is Wantage Road and the amount of times that has been through the process isnt worth talking about. The only thing it would benefit is class 6 freight and there is naff all of that down there anyway. Wooton Bassett is a 70mph junction so grade seperating it isnt going to gain you anything much there either. Waste of cash unless a exponential rise in traffic happens.

 

[LE Greys]

Why ? the headway down there is 4 minutes as it is and you have got the loops at Swindon, Challow and Steventon anyway. The only station worth opening is Wantage Road and the amount of times that has been through the process isnt worth talking about. The only thing it would benefit is class 6 freight and there is naff all of that down there anyway. Wooton Bassett is a 70mph junction so grade seperating it isnt going to gain you anything much there either. Waste of cash unless a exponential rise in traffic happens.

I'm not sure if it's possible, but the idea is to grow the route while abstracting some freight traffic for other routes. I'm relying on the East-West link as one way to divert freight traffic towards Didcot. The idea is to:
Allow freight workings associated with the East-West Link (eventually), Didcot power station and so on (I admit my knowledge here is a bit weak). I'm not sure if it's possible to divert some stone trains via Melksham rather than Newbury, but it's worth thinking about, although the Reading grade-separation is probably much more useful here.
Reintroduce the Oxford-Bristol services, perhaps running right through to Milton Keynes, or eventually Cambridge.
Increase Cheltenham services to hourly.
Reopen as many stations as possible along the route.

The flyover would be east of Swindon, allowing down expresses to Cheltenham and the Badminton route access to the island platform without crossing the up main. Badminton line trains would follow the relief lines between Swindon and Wooton Basset.

 

[starrymarkb]

TBH Its better that the stone goes via Newbury, easier to fit a 60mph stone train between the hourly 90-110mph HSTs then between the IIRC 5ph 125mph HSTs via Swindon

 

[turbo mick]

electric a waste of time the cost to electrify the whole lot get new rolling stock etc diesel is more reliable when we had the bad weather the hsts and units ran no problem.

new maintance depot being built at reading soon no plans for elctrics

 

[The Planner]

Thats only because Reading re-modelling blitzes the old one.

 

[starrymarkb]

electric a waste of time the cost to electrify the whole lot get new rolling stock etc diesel is more reliable when we had the bad weather the hsts and units ran no problem.

new maintance depot being built at reading soon no plans for elctrics

Interesting, I'd heard the new one would have EMUs too. Alstom are apparently out surveying for knitting aswell