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Great Western IEP order - Are there too many Bi-modes ?

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starrymarkb

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Why would you want to write a specification for a brand new batch of units (rather than a small follow on order) that only one company had a realistic chance of bidding for?

You might as well just give them a blank cheque and hope for the best

Indeed, if you were to specify something that only one manufacturer can provide then they can charge what they like. What would stop them charging £10m per vehicle and what incentive is there to build a good product. You'll end up with an expensive product and the profits would be sent straight to Montreal rather then invested in Derby.

A good example from Aviation, Southwest Airlines will only buy Boeing 737s, their business model is built around a single fleet type (even to the extent that their modern 737s display old fashioned steam gauges on the LCD screens so that pilots don't need to be retrained when moving from older aircraft). Shortly before meeting Boeing's sales team, their CEO would always give Douglas/Airbus a call and buy/blag some logo pens and model MD80/A320s in Southwest colours which would be put on prominent display in the meeting room. The idea was that the Boeing sales guys thought there was a risk he'd defect and would be more willing to negotiate.
 
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jimm

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Addressing assorted points from Rhydgaled and Philip W.

Corridor connections are really not feasible on 125mph trains due to crashworthiness issues - punching big holes in the front of things that could collide with something else doing 125mph (or even 140mph in the future) doesn't strike me as a good idea, therefore when there is portion working eg Oxford-London on services which need fewer seats on the Cotswold Line (or perhaps to Stratford-upon-Avon in future as well) this (corridor-less trains in multiple) is the way you will have to do it.

London-Oxford is essentially an outer-suburban length journey. Lots of the passengers doing that run don't want refreshments (or bought them at the station), so doubling up catering is hardly necessary. There are currently fast Turbos that as far as I'm aware are driver-only now, so what's the obsession with revenue protection staff on board all the time? The stations served by Oxford/Cotswold fasts (Reading, Slough, Maidenhead and Paddington, with Didcot due soon) are all gated and there is a small army of new RPIs out there now, who get on and off trains frequently.

As I said back up the thread, on the Cotswold Line you are talking a dozen platforms to extend at the main stations and two new platforms if redoubling is completed (and probably demolishing and replacing a road bridge at Evesham). That's a lot of money for about half the day's trains on the line and no-one is going to spend it (Network Rail ditched plans to build full-length new platforms at Charlbury and Honeybourne during redoubling due to the cost). On the other hand, spending money to make an entire route gauge-friendly for IEP is the kind of thing someone might think was a worthwhile long-term investment, just like gauge-clearing for big containers. Money will have to be spent to make some West Country routes able to take 165s and 166s post-2016, or should they not bother with that either?

No-one has said the diesel engines are staying there for 29 years, the odds are that once XC electrification goes ahead, then wiring to Worcester and Gloucester/Cheltenham or even Exeter then becomes a logical and viable proposition. The Cotswold Line isn't a "rural branch" - at any rate, I can't think of any others with 17 London trains each way each day, unless you count King's Lynn, and I don't, since these routes aren't branches.

I don't want anything from the Voyager/Meridian family anywhere near a GW express service (hands up anyone else who does, apart from the anti-bi-mode faction) - though now I come to think of it, how about one for Pembroke Dock trains on summer Saturdays, since you're so keen to foist them on others, as this is presumably the "rural branch" you have in mind? (though why an entire rolling stock strategy should be based around a line with a handful of summer Saturday through trains beats me)

An all nine-car fleet is incredibly inflexible (witness the current return of 180s to FGW, where the only option available for London-Oxford/Cotswold services the past three years has been an HST - ie lots of empty seats off-peak - or a Turbo configured for suburban duties).

And you and mallard apparently can't conceive that passengers can and do walk along platforms to find the coach with their reserved seat in, or a coach with some empty seats, etc. This country is often pretty poor about telling people where to stand on platforms for specific coaches or where there are seats available in a train (not exactly difficult in this day and age to convey that information from staff on a train into the CIS system if someone could be bothered to organise it).

Philip, again back up the thread I pointed out that a number of cotswold Line/Cheltenham diagrams are not 'captive' to the routes all day, as the peaks need more capacity, so the assertion that "these bi-modes will be working under the wires 100% of the time" is wrong. Plus if a set fails at Paddington and they need to step up another train to replace it, then having lots of electric sets is not much use if you need a train to cover a Worcester, Cheltenham, Weston-super-Mare or Carmarthen service, is it? Nor, as I also said previously, is running a five-car bi-mode and a five-car electric paired to Oxford if the bi-mode fails and the Worcester leg of the journey gets cancelled as the electric set can go no further.

I pointed out in this or the other IEP thread that the GW franchise tender documents make clear that the bidders can ask for alternative configurations of the fleet, so the numbers of different types of trains could still change - I would want there to be some nine-car bi-modes (which were in the last DfT wish-list). I suspect some of the bidders may want a few too.

And tbtc is correct, the wiring process is gradual, Oxford and Newbury by December 2016, Bristol and Cardiff in spring 2017 and Swansea May 2018 (if Network Rail can manage Swansea by then, according to DafT, so may be December), so potentially that "rural branch" through the Cotswolds could be the first to see IEPs in service, though I'd expect the launch to be timed with the Bristol and Cardiff changeover.
 

HSTEd

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Addressing assorted points from Rhydgaled and Philip W.

Corridor connections are really not feasible on 125mph trains due to crashworthiness issues - punching big holes in the front of things that could collide with something else doing 125mph (or even 140mph in the future) doesn't strike me as a good idea, therefore when there is portion working eg Oxford-London on services which need fewer seats on the Cotswold Line (or perhaps to Stratford-upon-Avon in future as well) this (corridor-less trains in multiple) is the way you will have to do it.

As I understand it the fast lines between London and Maidenhead will be monopolised by Heathrow Express and Great Western Intercity services, and all trains will be running non stop.
With the deployment of ERTMS there is no reason we cannot achieve 15 trains per hour or even more, especially if ATO was to be deployed along with said ERTMS.

Therefore, running doubled up services using IEPs which have atleast one staff member in each section, which is what seems to be suggested would not cost that much less than running two separate short IEPs in different paths next to each other since effective DOO is acceptable.

This is essentially the 3tph at 4 coaches each being switched to 4tph at 3 coaches each argument, which could enable the deployment of turn-up-and-ride frequencies on the core network.

As I said back up the thread, on the Cotswold Line you are talking a dozen platforms to extend at the main stations and two new platforms if redoubling is completed (and probably demolishing and replacing a road bridge at Evesham). That's a lot of money for about half the day's trains on the line and no-one is going to spend it (Network Rail ditched plans to build full-length new platforms at Charlbury and Honeybourne during redoubling due to the cost). On the other hand, spending money to make an entire route gauge-friendly for IEP is the kind of thing someone might think was a worthwhile long-term investment, just like gauge-clearing for big containers. Money will have to be spent to make some West Country routes able to take 165s and 166s post-2016, or should they not bother with that either?

Well I support 26m gauge clearances throughout the network, or as complete as we can get. Spending money on the Class 16x trains to clear them is very iffy when we consider they are going to need major money spending on them in a few years to get them past the DDA.

I don't want anything from the Voyager/Meridian family anywhere near a GW express service (hands up anyone else who does, apart from the anti-bi-mode faction) - though now I come to think of it, how about one for Pembroke Dock trains on summer Saturdays, since you're so keen to foist them on others, as this is presumably the "rural branch" you have in mind? (though why an entire rolling stock strategy should be based around a line with a handful of summer Saturday through trains beats me)

What is wrong with the Voyager/Meridian familiy?
Are you suggesting they be put out to scrap once the XC electrification occurs, assuming it ever does.
There is nothing wrong with them and since they are already DDA compliant they are ahead of the HST fleet in the stock-to-retain list.

An all nine-car fleet is incredibly inflexible (witness the current return of 180s to FGW, where the only option available for London-Oxford/Cotswold services the past three years has been an HST - ie lots of empty seats off-peak - or a Turbo configured for suburban duties).

Then why have no HSTs been withdrawn? The Class 180 fleet was only taken up as a last resort because there was a massive shortage of rolling stock.
But then I am supporting lots of short trains.

And you and mallard apparently can't conceive that passengers can and do walk along platforms to find the coach with their reserved seat in, or a coach with some empty seats, etc. This country is often pretty poor about telling people where to stand on platforms for specific coaches or where there are seats available in a train (not exactly difficult in this day and age to convey that information from staff on a train into the CIS system if someone could be bothered to organise it).

Then why not remove all the inter-coach gangways within units, since people are not bothered walking down the platform to find the correct coach, the extra space freed by eliminating the gangways would enable the saloon size to be increased by moving equipment around, and would thus enable more seats to be squeezed in.

Philip, again back up the thread I pointed out that a number of cotswold Line/Cheltenham diagrams are not 'captive' to the routes all day, as the peaks need more capacity, so the assertion that "these bi-modes will be working under the wires 100% of the time" is wrong. Plus if a set fails at Paddington and they need to step up another train to replace it, then having lots of electric sets is not much use if you need a train to cover a Worcester, Cheltenham, Weston-super-Mare or Carmarthen service, is it? Nor, as I also said previously, is running a five-car bi-mode and a five-car electric paired to Oxford if the bi-mode fails and the Worcester leg of the journey gets cancelled as the electric set can go no further.

Really we should just order all bi-modes, the electric IEPs are just not worth it with only £10k/month or so less leasing costs.

And tbtc is correct, the wiring process is gradual, Oxford and Newbury by December 2016, Bristol and Cardiff in spring 2017 and Swansea May 2018 (if Network Rail can manage Swansea by then, according to DafT, so may be December), so potentially that "rural branch" through the Cotswolds could be the first to see IEPs in service, though I'd expect the launch to be timed with the Bristol and Cardiff changeover.

Since the HSTs can struggle on to the end of 2019, there is no reason to start IEP services using bi-mode functionality until the wires reach the appropriate places.
 

jimm

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As you acknowledge, there is overcrowding on GW lines, so you can't afford to then waste capacity by filling the paths with lots of short trains, however clever the signalling may eventually be. And it's no answer to the question of passenger loadings east/west of Oxford on Cotswold services - to name the obvious instance where coupling/uncoupling is expected much of the time - in a situation where train paths between Oxford and Didcot will also be in high demand in future to accommodate extra freight and East-West services on top of all the existing services.

Lots of other rolling stock of similar vintage to Turbos, eg 158s, is going to need money spending on it to meet DDA and it is is obvious that the 165/166 fleet will be moving west come 2016/17 so the gauge clearance has to happen before DDA deadlines.

What is wrong with the Voyager/Meridian familiy? Are you suggesting they be put out to scrap once the XC electrification occurs, assuming it ever does.

where do we start... see other threads here about their general nastiness. HSTs may not be DDA-complaint but at least they don't shake themselves to bits on occasion and the toilets don't reek - or waste acres of precious space in the case of all those disabled toilets in Voyagers. I suggested nothing but you seem to be suggesting we should scrap 16xs due to DDA before their 30th birthdays, so why not 20-odd year-old 22xs as well, even if general nastiness is not a good reason for doing it? Only joking - plenty of other routes 22xs could go to, many of which wouldn't need depots away from the East Midlands to learn how to look after them and where a bi-mode 22x would come in handy.

Then why have no HSTs been withdrawn? The Class 180 fleet was only taken up as a last resort because there was a massive shortage of rolling stock.

Think you entirely missed my point. When the 180 fleet was being run down by FGW in 2008-9 they replaced them on Cotswold Line services with HSTs but soon realised this was a very expensive way of carrying a lot of air up and down outside the peaks. As a result, the line went backwards from the 2004-8 period of intercity standard trains (HST or 180) on the large majority of services, as back came the Turbos outside the peaks, because they were all that FGW had with a capacity better suited to off-peak loads on the line, even if unsuited to journeys of two hours-plus to/from Worcestershire.

So an all nine-car IEP fleet, whatever the propulsion system, would be equally ill-suited to a lot of GW services in the Cotswolds and elsewhere off-peak and at weekends. Who knows if all the 180s would have been retained by FGW if they had been more reliable but with spare HSTs available in 2006-7, FGW decided at the time to go for those instead - probably just as well given the crowding, but those crowding figures also suggest the extra HSTs should actually have been acquired in addition to the 180s, not instead of them.

Actually what I was advocating was the return of all-compartment, non-corridor stock (oh and why not steam traction as well? Then the train could go everywhere, electric v bi-mode problem solved). NB: This is a joke.

Give passengers the maximum possible amount of information and the odds are that the large majority will go to the right place on the platform/board the right coach (why would anyone want to lug big heavy bags through narrow aisles inside a train if they can avoid it?), so address the station information aspect (the CIS system FGW has installed can do all kinds of clever stuff, if only they would feed the correct details into it) and the sky will not fall in if you couple up two IEPs that don't have a corridor connection.

Since the HSTs can struggle on to the end of 2019, there is no reason to start IEP services using bi-mode functionality until the wires reach the appropriate places.

So are you saying that Swansea should keep HSTs into 2018, irrespective of wires being at Cardiff by spring 2017? Why would you not run bi-modes on Swansea services if you could while wiring is completed west of Cardiff? And good luck with writing a GWML timetable for that period, given the drastic differences in performance between diesel and electric traction. Even pathing the few West Country trains that go via Bristol will pose a challenge on an otherwise all-IEP railway west of Reading.
 

159220

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In the current ediition of 'Rail' magazine (No 702), it is stated (page 6) that of the 21 electric 9-car units ordered, the contract is for 18 to be available for daily service.

The Rail report is incorrect. The service provision for the GW SET 9 car electric is 21 trains and the 5 car Bi-Mode is for 36 trains in service for the TOC daily. Agility estimate they need to has an 88% availability, thus you actually have 24 9 car electric and 40 5 car bi-mode built for GW.

All other rail magazines, newspapers and press statement say a service provision.
 

PhilipW

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Philip, again back up the thread I pointed out that a number of cotswold Line/Cheltenham diagrams are not 'captive' to the routes all day, as the peaks need more capacity, so the assertion that "these bi-modes will be working under the wires 100% of the time" is wrong. Plus if a set fails at Paddington and they need to step up another train to replace it, then having lots of electric sets is not much use if you need a train to cover a Worcester, Cheltenham, Weston-super-Mare or Carmarthen service, is it? Nor, as I also said previously, is running a five-car bi-mode and a five-car electric paired to Oxford if the bi-mode fails and the Worcester leg of the journey gets cancelled as the electric set can go no further.

I pointed out in this or the other IEP thread that the GW franchise tender documents make clear that the bidders can ask for alternative configurations of the fleet, so the numbers of different types of trains could still change - I would want there to be some nine-car bi-modes (which were in the last DfT wish-list). I suspect some of the bidders may want a few too.

Jim,
I quite agree with your points about the North Cotswold line, running 10-car sets to Oxford and then forwarding on with just 5-car sets to Worcester and Hereford sounds good to me.

My points concern solely the core routes of Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea. On these all electric routes there are just not enough all electric sets to perform the basic prescribed services. I explained the numbers in my previous posts so won't repeat them here, but to run the services there are going to have to be some bi-modes in use as I said "under the wires 100% of the time".

I thought the purpose of bi-modes was to be able to run where there are no wires, not to run under the wires just because you have not ordered enough electric units.

That is my point. This is not a rant against bi-modes. I just want the balance between electric and bi-mode right. That I do not see at the moment. With bi-modes costing £3 million per 5-car set more than all electric, more to lease and more to pay in access charges to NR, there is big money at stake. Let's spend money on the railways, not waste it.

I note with interest your comments that bidders can ask for different combinations. If true, I am delighted to hear it, but I have to say that I have not that reported elsewhere and it was not mentioned in 'Rail' magazine's reporting of the IEP decisions.
 
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tbtc

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My points concern solely the core routes of Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea. On these all electric routes there are just not enough all electric sets to perform the basic prescribed services. I explained the numbers in my previous posts so won't repeat them here, but to run the services there are going to have to be some bi-modes in use as I said "under the wires 100% of the time"

I guess that the difference may be due to interworking (e.g. if the whole "Bristol via Parkway" half hourly service runs as Weston - Bristol - London - Bristol - London - Bristol - Weston)?

(so that an eastbound Weston service became the next Bristol service at Paddington)
 

PhilipW

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The Rail report is incorrect. The service provision for the GW SET 9 car electric is 21 trains and the 5 car Bi-Mode is for 36 trains in service for the TOC daily. Agility estimate they need to has an 88% availability, thus you actually have 24 9 car electric and 40 5 car bi-mode built for GW.

All other rail magazines, newspapers and press statement say a service provision.

Out of rail magazines, newspapers and press statements, I look towards rail amagazines as being the most informative and giving the truth behind the stories. Press statements are ambivalent and often misleading (on purpose), newspaper articles are often written by those who don't know, so it is left to rail magazines to report what is actually happening.

'Modern Railways' has not come out yet with its detailed IEP assessment. The only magazine I have seen is 'Rail' which reports the 18 electric set requirement. If wrong, I am sure it correct itself in the next issue. Until then I have little option but to believe them ... unless of course you can direct me elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I guess that the difference may be due to interworking (e.g. if the whole "Bristol via Parkway" half hourly service runs as Weston - Bristol - London - Bristol - London - Bristol - Weston)?

(so that an eastbound Weston service became the next Bristol service at Paddington)

Possible, but that would imply that DfT not only has specified the level of service but has also worked out the set allocations in deciding how many of which type is needed. That really is micro management.

Looking at the Bristol TM service, it could actually be nice and self contained. Currently Paddington to Bristol TM takes 1h 45m. With IEP this comes down a bit to about 1h 30m to 1h 35m. If the turnaround can be 25/30mins, this means that the 12:00 from BTM can form the 14:00 from Paddington which in turn can form the 16:00 from BTM giving a neat 4 hour cycle.

On a 4 hour cycle 4 sets are required. With 3 BTM services per hour, this gives a requirement for 12 sets, which can be all electric. I am assuming the 4th set per hour has to be bi-mode to allow it to go forward to Weston.
 
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HSTEd

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As you acknowledge, there is overcrowding on GW lines, so you can't afford to then waste capacity by filling the paths with lots of short trains, however clever the signalling may eventually be. And it's no answer to the question of passenger loadings east/west of Oxford on Cotswold services - to name the obvious instance where coupling/uncoupling is expected much of the time - in a situation where train paths between Oxford and Didcot will also be in high demand in future to accommodate extra freight and East-West services on top of all the existing services.

The route is not full though, and once the ERTMS is fitted there will likely be plenty of spare paths to run additional Oxford terminators and the like if there is really insufficient capacity on the through services.

If there is no shortage of paths running 1 5-car through and 9-car Oxford terminator is clearly superior to running 1 5-car through and 1-5 car Oxford terminator, as you only require one additional staff member and have far more seats over the Oxford section of the run for a same outlay in catering staff.
If there was through gangways you would only need one catering crew for the joined up formation to provide the service to path sets, but since there will be no gangways you would require a second crew and only save the driver.

The choke point on the Great Western Main Line is between London and Maidenhead after Crossrail reduces it to a two track railway in that area. There are multiple alternatives for cross london freight that avoid having to use that section of track, and as far as I know little freight currently goes that way anyway.
With the commitment of the Electric Spine it is also more likely than ever that the freight will be electric operated and thus will be far more spritely than most freight services.

Lots of other rolling stock of similar vintage to Turbos, eg 158s, is going to need money spending on it to meet DDA and it is is obvious that the 165/166 fleet will be moving west come 2016/17 so the gauge clearance has to happen before DDA deadlines.

Is it? I don't think it has been decided if the 158s will recieve DDA rebuilds, all of the Sprinter and Networker families will be over, or approaching, 30 years old as you yourself acknowledge and will thus be approaching end of life.
Will it be worth spending several hundred thousand pounds to rebuild trains that are going to see another decade at best and at the same time use engines which are awfully polluting by modern standards? A re-engining programme will put the cost up even further.
Are class 16xs not cleared on the Chiltern/GC routes anyway? They could easily be put to work for a few years on the Chiltern services which require additional stock, perhaps displacing the 172s. Until such time as they are either replaced with new diesels or electrification renders them unneccesary.


where do we start... see other threads here about their general nastiness. HSTs may not be DDA-complaint but at least they don't shake themselves to bits on occasion and the toilets don't reek - or waste acres of precious space in the case of all those disabled toilets in Voyagers. I suggested nothing but you seem to be suggesting we should scrap 16xs due to DDA before their 30th birthdays, so why not 20-odd year-old 22xs as well, even if general nastiness is not a good reason for doing it? Only joking - plenty of other routes 22xs could go to, many of which wouldn't need depots away from the East Midlands to learn how to look after them and where a bi-mode 22x would come in handy.

The Class 22x will not require enormously expensive rebuilds to continue in operation, and as far as I can think of there are no routes that East Midlands Trains or similar operate that will be not be electrified at the same time as the Midland Main Line that would have any significant use for them.
Even Liverpool-Norwich cannot use them due to its extensive SP limits on the eastern half of the route.

There is nowhere else practical to send them than an XC network that will be swimming in diesel IC trains once electrification of the Electric Spine is complete and the Great Western which will have HSTs to replace.
Project THor also appears to be dead, the DfT is still balking at the cost and we have heard nothing since before the electrification projects were announced.

Think you entirely missed my point. When the 180 fleet was being run down by FGW in 2008-9 they replaced them on Cotswold Line services with HSTs but soon realised this was a very expensive way of carrying a lot of air up and down outside the peaks. As a result, the line went backwards from the 2004-8 period of intercity standard trains (HST or 180) on the large majority of services, as back came the Turbos outside the peaks, because they were all that FGW had with a capacity better suited to off-peak loads on the line, even if unsuited to journeys of two hours-plus to/from Worcestershire.

What constitutes InterCity standard? You seem to not want catering of any significant kind, which is about the only thing that sets IC apart these days, and at the same time complain about HSTs being replaced with Turbos that have little else wrong with them. (Apart from perhaps the lack of air conditioning which would be fixed by ordering new flat front DMUs).

So are you saying that Swansea should keep HSTs into 2018, irrespective of wires being at Cardiff by spring 2017? Why would you not run bi-modes on Swansea services if you could while wiring is completed west of Cardiff? And good luck with writing a GWML timetable for that period, given the drastic differences in performance between diesel and electric traction. Even pathing the few West Country trains that go via Bristol will pose a challenge on an otherwise all-IEP railway west of Reading.

There is a simple answer to the pathing issues with all the mixed performance trains... which is to simply cap the performance of the IEP to that of the HST during the transition.
Since the transistion will only be 12-15 months at most, and since we know precisely which services will be transitioning in which order creating transitional timetables if one is really required will not be a major issue.

Delaying the official launch of the all-singing all-dancing new timetable until after the transition is complete would avoid embarrassing PR disasters like the one that delivered the coup-de-grace of the APT project or the U-turn over Operation Princess.
It woudl enable trains to be shaken down gradually with the new timetable only comign in once the entire fleet is in service.
As HST leasing costs will be run down in a big way towards end of life as they will not be DDA compliant and will have little value other than as scrap and museum pieces, extending the fleet's life by about 18 months for a small fraction of them would not cause massive economic issues.

EDIT:

If having the "flexibility" of 2 5-car sets is preferable to a fleet of 9-car sets.
Why not order a fleet of 5-car sets and not bother with 9-car sets at all?

You could push to 2tph to Swansea or somesuch by portion working the Bristol trains rather than 1tph using a 9-car set.
 
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Rich McLean

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I think I worked out off peak diagrams a few weeks ago, on how this would work, and it calculated like this.

3tph to Bristol (one via parkway) would all be 9 car electrics
1tph to cardiff central would all be 9 car electrics
1tph to Weston, would be 2x5 car bi-modes to bristol with 1 x 5 car set continuing.

A 5 car set shortly from Weston on the up service would arrive into Bristol and would attach to the unit that was left at Bristol by the down service, and form that back into Paddington

The 1tph Swansea services Off peak, would be 2x5 car bi-modes until Cardiff, with splitting and detaching at Cardiff, with one portion going to Swansea.

Similar with the Cheltneham services with 2x5 car to Swindon.

So while there will be Bi-modes running under the wires, it provides more flexibility with diagrams, and if one portion has an engine fault, then the other portion can be sent on, without having to cancel services.

Cotswolds Off peak, would indeed be 2x5 car to Oxford, with 1x5 car continuing West.

In the peaks however, we will then have extra stock available to double up services further afield to Swansea, Cheltneham and Worcester, without it eating up anymore diagrams.
 

Stats

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I just want the balance between electric and bi-mode right. That I do not see at the moment.
May I suggest, if you are so concerned that you ask the DfT, either as a general enquiry or through an FoI, on what indicative service specification, journey times and layover times they modelled the IEP contract on.

I note with interest your comments that bidders can ask for different combinations. If true, I am delighted to hear it, but I have to say that I have not that reported elsewhere and it was not mentioned in 'Rail' magazine's reporting of the IEP decisions.
The ITT gives the conditions on which bidders can work up proposals for a variation to the contract.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Possible, but that would imply that DfT not only has specified the level of service but has also worked out the set allocations in deciding how many of which type is needed. That really is micro management.
There is a full IEP timetable on which the business case was devised and which bidders must use as a "do minimum" specification.
 

PhilipW

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I think I worked out off peak diagrams a few weeks ago, on how this would work, and it calculated like this.

3tph to Bristol (one via parkway) would all be 9 car electrics
1tph to cardiff central would all be 9 car electrics
1tph to Weston, would be 2x5 car bi-modes to bristol with 1 x 5 car set continuing.

A 5 car set shortly from Weston on the up service would arrive into Bristol and would attach to the unit that was left at Bristol by the down service, and form that back into Paddington

The 1tph Swansea services Off peak, would be 2x5 car bi-modes until Cardiff, with splitting and detaching at Cardiff, with one portion going to Swansea.

Rich, I agree with your diagrams completely, just what I was thinking.

Let's look at the Swansea service at 1tph. It is all bi-mode. As a 10-car as far as Cardiff, that will use up probably 10 sets. With a 5-car set just going on to Swansea. that will use up another 2 sets. So it will take approx 12 sets to run the hourly service. They are all under the wires 100% of the time so could be all electric.

Look at the economics of it all
12 bi-mode 5-car sets will cost £168 million to build (60 carriages at £2.8mill each).
12 electric 5-car sets will cost £132 million to build (60 carriages at £2.2 mill each)
..... a difference of £36 million.
The bi-modes cost more to lease and incur higher track access usage charges to Network Rail.

All those months debating about whether it was worth the cost of electrifying onto Swansea. We are now electrifying it but still want to use bi-modes. Err ..... am I dreaming !!!!!!
 

tbtc

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The route is not full though, and once the ERTMS is fitted there will likely be plenty of spare paths to run additional Oxford terminators and the like if there is really insufficient capacity on the through services

With Crossrail taking over the slow lines, you are going to have to squeeze something like the following Paddington services through a two track bottleneck:

  • 4x Heathrow (HEX)
  • 2x Newbury line services (one to Newbury, one to Plymouth/ Penzance
  • 2x Bristol via Bath
  • 2x Bristol via Parkway
  • 2x Cardiff/ Swansea
  • 1x Cheltenham
  • 2x Oxford fast
  • 2x Oxford slow
  • 2z Reading slow (i.e. whatever is required to serve Maidenhead to Reading passengers since Crossrail will only replace stoppers east of Maidenhead)

So, without any real expansion of services (other than the extra Bristols) that's nineteen Paddington departures an hour going through a two track bottleneck. I don't know whether there'll be much capacity for additional Oxford services.
 

Nym

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Crossrail will be sharing the slows with other services...

If XR gets extended up to Reading, the Reading Slows will become pointless (and I can't see any other way of working it, unless we're putting them on the slows anyway) then you end up with only 17tph on the 2 track section, take off HEX as well when later improvments to services are likely to be made and you can see 13tph running, should be OK then.

One also has to consider that the 2tph Bristol via Parkway may actually be portion working and splitting to also form Swansea services on some occations, reducing the core TPH required, and making reasonable sense if services via Parkway are being extended to WSM or beyond, for example, Taunton. Even if this is only 1tph of the 2tph via Parkway, it reduces load by 1tph if say the 1tph Swansea and 1tph Taunton via Parkway are portion worked from Parkway...

Of course one should also consider the possibility of more potion working via Didcot and/or Swindon...
 

kjhskj75

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[*]2z Reading slow (i.e. whatever is required to serve Maidenhead to Reading passengers since Crossrail will only replace stoppers east of Maidenhead)

The Reading slows could be the same trains as the Oxford slows.
 

tbtc

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The Reading slows could be the same trains as the Oxford slows.

At the moment (IIRC) there are four "slows" from Paddington to Reading (two run to Oxford, two terminate at Reading).

Whilst Crossrail will take over many of the stops between London and Maidenhead, there will still be some demand to get between those stations and Reading (plus the need to serve Twyford), so I could see four trains an hour remaining - unless another service is slowed down to make up the short fall in Slough/ Maidenhead (etc) to Reading services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If XR gets extended up to Reading, the Reading Slows will become pointless (and I can't see any other way of working it, unless we're putting them on the slows anyway) then you end up with only 17tph on the 2 track section, take off HEX as well when later improvments to services are likely to be made and you can see 13tph running, should be OK then.

Crossrail getting extended to Reading and/or Heathrow Express getting replaced by Crossrail may happen one day, but not for at least a decade which means we have to deal with the reality of where things will be at the time electrification is getting completed/ IEPs are being introduced.

One also has to consider that the 2tph Bristol via Parkway may actually be portion working and splitting to also form Swansea services on some occations, reducing the core TPH required, and making reasonable sense if services via Parkway are being extended to WSM or beyond, for example, Taunton. Even if this is only 1tph of the 2tph via Parkway, it reduces load by 1tph if say the 1tph Swansea and 1tph Taunton via Parkway are portion worked from Parkway...

Portion working like that would mean a reduction in capacity for London - Cardiff (down to five coach trains) which I can't imagine being very popular politically.

IIRC the suggestion was that Parkway services would be non-stop (or one stop?) to Parkway, so no chance of joining them to anything else.

But that is reducing capacity from Reading. Have you even been on a peak time Reading stopper in and out of Paddington?

Yes - some of the busiest trains in the UK (where "overcrowding" means something, not just "a couple of people had to stand" or "I had to sit next to a stranger" - the Thames Valley services are like the London Underground for "squashedness").

Much as I'd love investment in Yorkshire, I've got to accept that the Thames Valley has a much better need for immediate capacity increases.
 

RobShipway

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At the moment (IIRC) there are four "slows" from Paddington to Reading (two run to Oxford, two terminate at Reading).

Whilst Crossrail will take over many of the stops between London and Maidenhead, there will still be some demand to get between those stations and Reading (plus the need to serve Twyford), so I could see four trains an hour remaining - unless another service is slowed down to make up the short fall in Slough/ Maidenhead (etc) to Reading services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Crossrail getting extended to Reading and/or Heathrow Express getting replaced by Crossrail may happen one day, but not for at least a decade which means we have to deal with the reality of where things will be at the time electrification is getting completed/ IEPs are being introduced.



Portion working like that would mean a reduction in capacity for London - Cardiff (down to five coach trains) which I can't imagine being very popular politically.

IIRC the suggestion was that Parkway services would be non-stop (or one stop?) to Parkway, so no chance of joining them to anything else.



Yes - some of the busiest trains in the UK (where "overcrowding" means something, not just "a couple of people had to stand" or "I had to sit next to a stranger" - the Thames Valley services are like the London Underground for "squashedness").

Much as I'd love investment in Yorkshire, I've got to accept that the Thames Valley has a much better need for immediate capacity increases.

There is a much greater need in the Thames Valley. When I used to live in Slough I would on occasions rather than using my car into the office in Maidenhead use the train, only to find that even at 7am in the morning I would have to stand all the way to Maidenhead as most people seemed to be travelling to Reading. Athough quite a few did get off at Maidenhead.

Nowadays, with living in Bracknell I have to go to Reading first and then change which again even at 7am I have found that the train is full even before it has started it's journey and this is even with the trains being two class 166's three car trains coupled together.
 

jimm

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My points concern solely the core routes of Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea. On these all electric routes there are just not enough all electric sets to perform the basic prescribed services. I explained the numbers in my previous posts so won't repeat them here, but to run the services there are going to have to be some bi-modes in use as I said "under the wires 100% of the time".

And my point is that while some bi-modes may well be supposed to spend all day running on electricity, if something goes wrong on another train, that set(s) may well then be required to go off the wires to cover another diagram, while other bi-mode sets will run under the wires much of the day but diagrams will require running off the wires at other points. And if all the wires come down one day, then you might be very grateful to be on a bi-mode, 'excess' or not.

The point about bidders being able to ask for different formations is at page 77 here http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publicatio...nchise-great-western/invitation-to-tender.pdf

HSTEd, as tbtc says, there won't be all these spare paths you imagine - he is also being generous in fixing the Oxford fast service at two trains per hour. There is a stated aspiration to go to 3tph with IEP (may be in the GW RUS, I forget exactly). You ignored my point about Oxford-Didcot, which is going to be one hell of a choke point by the end of the decade - while part of the formation can take two extra tracks, a long stretch of double track will remain south of Radley. And it's rather busy already.

If there is no shortage of paths running 1 5-car through and 9-car Oxford terminator is clearly superior to running 1 5-car through and 1-5 car Oxford terminator, as you only require one additional staff member and have far more seats over the Oxford section of the run for a same outlay in catering staff.

Good luck with trying to fit a formation of 14 26m coaches into a platform at Paddington. Or are you suggesting running five-car and nine car trains separately on all these spare paths? Are you offering to be the person at Paddington who has to stand there and tell people, "yes, that five-car train is going towards Oxford, but no, you can't get on, as we need all the seats for people going to stations past Oxford"? Or, even better, being at Oxford when a full five-car set comes off the Cotswold Line and a few dozen people get off when there are 200 waiting on the platform (a scenario currently being played out due to the school holidays/Olympics when a 180 arrives at Oxford at 10am on the 08.26 from Worcester (it's not pretty to watch). What's the line there? "So sorry, you'll have to wait 20 minutes for the big train that just arrived at the other platform.".

So what's your next gambit, 'pick up only at Reading and Oxford westbound, set down only eastbound, that's fixed it'? Not when it blows a hole in the Oxford regular interval timetable it hasn't, especially when you face cut-throat competition from two M40 coach operators.

You seem sceptical about the idea 16X sets are moving west. There is a very clear declaration of intent included in the supporting documents for the HLOS where improvements around Bristol are mentioned, so gauge clearance is going ahead, whatever other issues there may be around which types of dmus will run past 2020. http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/illustrative-options.pdf

West
Filton – Bristol capacity enhancement (four-track).
Bristol Temple Meads station capacity and incorporation of historic Digby
Wyatt train shed. Station potentially a focus of wider city regeneration.
Route gauge clearance for different DMUs.

I expect Chiltern may ask for a few extra 165s, but they certainly don't need 37 sets, never mind the 21 166s.

You assert that because of Sprinter speed limits you can't use 22X sets to Norwich. How about some track renewals? Settle & Carlisle and coal trains ring any bells?

If all manner of other dmus are to culled due to DDA, then the 22Xs will have to be used in places that they don't go now, to free Class 170s from their current XC and Scotrail (Aberdeen and Inverness expresses need more capacity than 170s offer) operations to replace 15X and 16X trains elsewhere, because CP6 electrification schemes on XC, Chiltern or anywhere else will not be completed in the blink of an eye. How do you know project Thor is dead? No-one has said anything either way.

I never said I didn't want catering but if you are running a 2x5-car formation and don't want huge numbers of staff, put it in the set on the long-distance leg of the journey, ie the one going to Worcester, not the one that drops off at Oxford. A number of Oxford fasts now have no catering, not even a trolley, for the reasons I have already indicated.

As for the stuff about intercity standard, I would expect better seats and more legroom than a Turbo offers - and that's what you get with a 180 or HST. Turbos may be mechanically reliable, but there is a lot wrong with them for journeys beyond an hour, eg suburban 3+2 seats for people without arms, no legroom... try riding in one from Hereford to London on a Sunday evening for three hours plus. And no-one is ordering new dmus.

Capping IEP performance? I can see that one going down well in Oxford, Swindon, Bath, Bristol, Newport and Cardiff. "Well, you've endured years of disruption for electrification, resignalling and Reading rebuilding but your shiny new trains aren't actually going to use their superior acceleration to speed up your journeys for well over a year because the wires aren't finished to Swansea." Even the most gifted PR person might struggle to sell that one. Shaking-down trains? First IEPs are said to be likely to appear by 2015, so I think they might have time to try them out first...
 
Last edited:

PhilipW

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And my point is that while some bi-modes may well be supposed to spend all day running on electricity, if something goes wrong on another train, that set(s) may well then be required to go off the wires to cover another diagram, while other bi-mode sets will run under the wires much of the day but diagrams will require running off the wires at other points. And if all the wires come down one day, then you might be very grateful to be on a bi-mode, 'excess' or not.

Jim,
You have a point. I agree to that. However there is a 'but', and the 'but' is this:

Over the last 18 months during the debate as to whether it was worth extending electrification to Swansea, the cost was always key. It is going to cost £x million and only 1tph is going to use it, etc, etc, etc.

To counteract that, proponents of electrification said that just taking the building cost of £x million was invalid as there would also be saving of £y million because there would no longer be any need for any of the more expensive bi-modes, as the service can now be all electric. So the true cost of electrification is really £ (x-y) million. As has been detailed in previous posts, this £y million is not insubstantial.

Now it appears that we are still going to have bi-modes running most of time on Swansea services, it is just that the pantograph is up instead of down. So all the potential benefit of £y million has vanished.

Even if 10-12 of the 36 bi-modes were all electric as I propose, it would still leave a pool of 24-26 bi-modes which I would have thought was large enough to cover all non-electric services as use as backup which is your concern. Hard for me to prove that, of course, but that is what I feel.
 

JamesRowden

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And my point is that while some bi-modes may well be supposed to spend all day running on electricity, if something goes wrong on another train, that set(s) may well then be required to go off the wires to cover another diagram, while other bi-mode sets will run under the wires much of the day but diagrams will require running off the wires at other points.

I agree that making a significant proportion of the spare sets bi-mode (for while some are being serviced or have broken down) adds flexibility. However, once the number of electric sets reduces to become equal to that required for the off-peak services on the fully electrified routes at a given point in time, the flexibility advantages of having another bi-mode rather than electric set dissapear since there would be no functioning electric sets out of sevice and therefore no flexibility isues with bring them in to deputise for a faulty set.

More flexibility in where each set can run reduces the total number of sets required to be ordered in order to maintain a constant probability that the sets required to run all the services are available. (I could go through all the mathematics but to explain simply, a greater group means that the 'law of avarages' means that it is less likely that an unusually high proportion of sets will be faulty at the same time).

Therefore the optimum number of electric sets is somewhere within the range defined as:

Minimum: The quantity that would be required to be in service during off-peak on the fully electrified routes.

Maximum: The quantity required to run electric sets on every fully electrified route all of the time.

I suspect that the DfT are aiming for the minimum quantity of electric sets for if the TOC choose to do the minimum level of service that it will be allowed to run. I am sure that there would be no complaints if the TOC chooses to run more services and order more electric / bi-mode sets.

Also, interworking between different routes is not favoured because it means that disruption on one route would spread to the routes that it is interworked with.
 

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Jim,
You have a point. I agree to that. However there is a 'but', and the 'but' is this:

Over the last 18 months during the debate as to whether it was worth extending electrification to Swansea, the cost was always key. It is going to cost £x million and only 1tph is going to use it, etc, etc, etc.

To counteract that, proponents of electrification said that just taking the building cost of £x million was invalid as there would also be saving of £y million because there would no longer be any need for any of the more expensive bi-modes, as the service can now be all electric. So the true cost of electrification is really £ (x-y) million. As has been detailed in previous posts, this £y million is not insubstantial.

Now it appears that we are still going to have bi-modes running most of time on Swansea services, it is just that the pantograph is up instead of down. So all the potential benefit of £y million has vanished.

Even if 10-12 of the 36 bi-modes were all electric as I propose, it would still leave a pool of 24-26 bi-modes which I would have thought was large enough to cover all non-electric services as use as backup which is your concern. Hard for me to prove that, of course, but that is what I feel.

IIRC the news of electrification to Swansea saw the proposal for nine coach bimode IEP on the GWML replaced by an equivalent additional number of nine coach electric IEP (so there has been a cut in bi-mode numbers to recognise the electrification)
 

PhilipW

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IIRC the news of electrification to Swansea saw the proposal for nine coach bimode IEP on the GWML replaced by an equivalent additional number of nine coach electric IEP (so there has been a cut in bi-mode numbers to recognise the electrification)

That may be the case but, as has been detailed in earlier posts, the numbers still do not stack up to run all electric trains on the core services to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea.
 

Stats

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IIRC the news of electrification to Swansea saw the proposal for nine coach bimode IEP on the GWML replaced by an equivalent additional number of nine coach electric IEP (so there has been a cut in bi-mode numbers to recognise the electrification)
Yes, as of the 25th June 2012 the plan for the GWML was 11 8-car electrics, 12 8-car Bi-modes and 26 5-car Bi-modes. The final order, along with electrification to Swansea, removes all the full length electric Bi-modes and replaces them with an additional 10 full length electric units and 10 half-length bi-mode units. (assuming the final published numbers represent diagrams)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That may be the case but, as has been detailed in earlier posts, the numbers still do not stack up to run all electric trains on the core services to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea.
In your tightly constrained world maybe. It is clear that some bimodes will be running under the wire services for a portion of the day because these units will be required to extend beyond the wires during the peaks or at other times of the day. The alternative is to order additional electric units that sit idle during the peaks or remove the ability for some places to have intercity services.
 

tbtc

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Yes, as of the 25th June 2012 the plan for the GWML was 11 8-car electrics, 12 8-car Bi-modes and 26 5-car Bi-modes. The final order, along with electrification to Swansea, removes all the full length electric Bi-modes and replaces them with an additional 10 full length electric units and 10 half-length bi-mode units. (assuming the final published numbers represent diagrams)

Thanks for confirming the details :)

In your tightly constrained world maybe. It is clear that some bimodes will be running under the wire services for a portion of the day because these units will be required to extend beyond the wires during the peaks or at other times of the day. The alternative is to order additional electric units that sit idle during the peaks or remove the ability for some places to have intercity services.

People don't seem to complain about East Coast having HST diagrams that are something like Harrogate/Hull to London in the morning, a daytime return trip to Leeds/ Newcastle then an evening return to Harrogate/ Hull (even though the "off peak" work is wholly under the wires).

I presume that we'll see something similar on the GWML - the only difference being that the bi-mode trains will be running on electric whilst under the wires (so much more efficient than having HSTs going all that way under wires on diesel)
 

PhilipW

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In your tightly constrained world maybe. It is clear that some bimodes will be running under the wire services for a portion of the day because these units will be required to extend beyond the wires during the peaks or at other times of the day. The alternative is to order additional electric units that sit idle during the peaks or remove the ability for some places to have intercity services.

My figures were based on off-peak usage. I may be wrong, of course, but nobody has come forward to show me how. One other contributor, Rich McLean, has come forward with similar figures to mine.

In summary, my figures are:
Bristol - 3tph requires 12 sets (which excludes the 4th train per hour going forward to Weston)
Cardiff - 1 tph requires 5 sets
Swansea - 1 tph requires 7 full sets or, if you have it 10-car to Cardiff then 5-car onto Swansea, requires 12 5-car sets.

With just 21 full electric sets being built, whether all in service or some held back for maintenence, the figures just don't add up.
 

ainsworth74

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People don't seem to complain about East Coast having HST diagrams that are something like Harrogate/Hull to London in the morning, a daytime return trip to Leeds/ Newcastle then an evening return to Harrogate/ Hull (even though the "off peak" work is wholly under the wires).

Really? I'm definitely not the only one that has commented on various threads from time to time that it's a waste that we have HSTs spending long periods of time under the wires (including some diagrams that see an HST spending an entire day under the wires). One of the reasons I'm looking forward to the Bi-Modes arriving (though I still maintain they should be EMUs with loco haulage away from the wires) is that we'll finally be able to do away with HSTs travelling hundreds of miles under the wires.
 

Stats

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My figures were based on off-peak usage. I may be wrong, of course, but nobody has come forward to show me how. One other contributor, Rich McLean, has come forward with similar figures to mine.

In summary, my figures are:
Bristol - 3tph requires 12 sets (which excludes the 4th train per hour going forward to Weston)
Cardiff - 1 tph requires 5 sets
Swansea - 1 tph requires 7 full sets or, if you have it 10-car to Cardiff then 5-car onto Swansea, requires 12 5-car sets.

With just 21 full electric sets being built, whether all in service or some held back for maintenence, the figures just don't add up.
I've just explained why the figures don't appear to add up. Let me try again. Bimodes will operate off-peak core electric services because during the peaks they will need to extend beyond the wires. You seem to be suggesting we order more electric units that will sit idle during the peaks while the bimodes that will be used during the peaks sit idle during the day. That is duplicating the units that will be needed to provide a full service and is a waste of money. At least under the DfT's plan some of the bimode units that are really only needed for the peaks are being utilised during the day and not sitting idle reducing the number of diagrams that need to be paid for. Of course it isn't ideal that redundant diesel motors are dragged under the wires for most of the day but a compromise is needed to be able to provide a full service to all the destinations necessary throughout a full day in the most economical and cost effective way.
 

tbtc

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My figures were based on off-peak usage

The trouble is that we are arguing about numbers without seeing what the new timetable will look like - it's all a bit hypothetical

Really? I'm definitely not the only one that has commented on various threads from time to time that it's a waste that we have HSTs spending long periods of time under the wires (including some diagrams that see an HST spending an entire day under the wires).

People complain about Virgin Voyagers spending all day under the wires between Birmingham and Scotland, and about East Coast having HSTs running wholly under the wires, but I think there's less argument about the peak Harrogate/ Hull (etc) HSTs being used to Newcastle/ Leeds in the daytime (as their duties interwork with services that run off the wires).

I'm not saying its ideal, just that its less complained about.
 
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