Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[Astro_Orbiter]

Most if not all the priorities when evaluating the replacement fleets for the GEML came down to increasing capacity in the peak hours.

Yes, but capacity looks different across the GA network. The West Anglia side especially Hertford and Stratford services imo should be more 710 style stock as they are short journeys with lots of people. Longer services out on the GE and towards Cambridge/Kings Lynn will be fine with all the seats 720's bring, once people get used to them of course.
It makes even less sense for the WA side considering most of the station's those Hertford trains stop at are 8 coaches long, so a 5 car 720 doesn't cut it really and a 10 car is too long and will increase dwell times as people (try!) To walk through busy trains to get off etc. Ah well, it's all done now anyway, just got to make the best of it all.

 

[dk1]

Yes, but capacity looks different across the GA network. The West Anglia side especially Hertford and Stratford services imo should be more 710 style stock as they are short journeys with lots of people. Longer services out on the GE and towards Cambridge/Kings Lynn will be fine with all the seats 720's bring, once people get used to them of course.
It makes even less sense for the WA side considering most of the station's those Hertford trains stop at are 8 coaches long, so a 5 car 720 doesn't cut it really and a 10 car is too long and will increase dwell times as people (try!) To walk through busy trains to get off etc. Ah well, it's all done now anyway, just got to make the best of it all.

That’s just it really. It is what it is.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

That’s just it really. It is what it is.

Yup! Don't want to get off topic but imo it was a mistake to order the fleets they did, I understand why they did, but the franchise should have maybe been broken up with TFL taking more areas or something like that, because a blanket new emu stock replacement like this creates so many issues. Having said all that, from my own personal perspective I think the 720's are excellent units, preferable from a drivers perspective to 745's all day long for me. But I'd still have a 745 all day long as opposed to a 317/321/379

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Is that planned?

It was in the RUS. But so was 2 additional bay platforms adjacent to platform 11, to allow for service expansion such as services via a reinstated hall farm curve to Chingford. However the current planning application for the MSG Sphere, doesn't allow for those bay platforms. So who knows if platform extension for 10 and 11 is viable as a result.

 

[306024]

I do wonder if DfT collected any evidence on commuter preferences before going at seat-counts-above-everything for the 720s, or whether it was led by politicians wanting to say z% more seats. Does anyone know?

Getting a seat has consistently featured highly on all passenger surveys for years on the GEML. At the height of the peak it was running at full track capacity with full length trains so the only way to go was with higher capacity trains. And then Covid throws it all up in the air.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

I do wonder if DfT collected any evidence on commuter preferences before going at seat-counts-above-everything for the 720s, or whether it was led by politicians wanting to say z% more seats. Does anyone know?

Alas I fairly sure that passenger survey results (pre-covid) stated seat availability as a top priority. Hence DFT focus on cramming as many seats into the 720's as possible. A case of fighting the last war now?

 

[Shwam3]

Is that planned?

Yes, platform 11 will be extended.

 

[ashkeba]

Getting a seat has consistently featured highly on all passenger surveys for years on the GEML. At the height of the peak it was running at full track capacity with full length trains so the only way to go was with higher capacity trains. And then Covid throws it all up in the air.

Were people saying they wanted a seat warned it would be cramped 3+2?

And was only the GEML asked, not WAML too?

 

[306024]

Were people saying they wanted a seat warned it would be cramped 3+2?

And was only the GEML asked, not WAML too?

It wouldn’t have been quite so cramped if Abellio hadn’t taken seating capacity to the extreme, but the DfT were scoring seating capacity highly in the bid so that’s what we‘ve got. However nearly all rolling stock on the GEML and Southend Vic line has been 3+2 seating for years, so that part shouldn’t be a surprise.

The issue wasn’t so severe on the Cambridge line, and you had the option of increasing to 12 cars which is what the Dec 2011 timetable re-write did on a few trains. Overcrowding became a problem on the inner Hertford East service, which is why they were diverted via Southbury in the peaks with additional Broxbourne starters/terminators to pick up the Lea Valley calls.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can anyone in the know confirm that 5 car working on the West Anglia routes is indeed a stop gap until the required platform extensions have happened? I had thought once 10 cars could fit on all routes on the West then they’d be introduced.

Meanwhile, for the number crunchers…
501-510, 512-514, 516, 518-520, 523-530, 532-534, 541, 544, 555, 572, 579, 582-589 are what I have down as not entered service yet from this first batch of 720s. If anyone knows of some listed here that have been accepted into service and are now operating passenger workings, putting so in the chat would be greatly appreciated.

I know a lot of the forum (myself included) are working their way through now! On a work trip to London last week, I managed to find time to push myself over the halfway point of the 720/5s. The downside of that is, of course, the ever growing number of duds that show!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Did greater anglia not bother programming the units passenger info that are subbing in for flirts and stopping everywhere on the GEML?

No screens or announcements and the extra stops are confusing people? this is second train I have been on like this.

 

[Shunter_69]

They are normally done automatically from the head code but the short term changes hadn’t been loaded last time I was in. They can be amended or some generic codes loaded.

 

[AS43]

Can anyone in the know confirm that 5 car working on the West Anglia routes is indeed a stop gap until the required platform extensions have happened? I had thought once 10 cars could fit on all routes on the West then they’d be introduced.

Platform extensions are indeed required at Hertford, Stratford and Broxbourne before they operate on services which start/terminate at those stations. However, thanks to the ASDO (Automatic Selective Door Operation) system, 10 cars could appear on the Cambridges in the near future. Posters have already started to appear appear advising passengers which part of the train to travel in for the shorter platformed stations...

 

[Railperf]

Can anyone in the know confirm that 5 car working on the West Anglia routes is indeed a stop gap until the required platform extensions have happened? I had thought once 10 cars could fit on all routes on the West then they’d be introduced.

Meanwhile, for the number crunchers…
501-510, 512-514, 516, 518-520, 523-530, 532-534, 541, 544, 555, 572, 579, 582-589 are what I have down as not entered service yet from this first batch of 720s. If anyone knows of some listed here that have been accepted into service and are now operating passenger workings, putting so in the chat would be greatly appreciated.

I know a lot of the forum (myself included) are working their way through now! On a work trip to London last week, I managed to find time to push myself over the halfway point of the 720/5s. The downside of that is, of course, the ever growing number of duds that show!

For sure it seems that 5-car operation on Cambridge services is due to two main reasons. 1. Not enough 720s to run 10-car, and 2. Commuter levels not being high enough to warrant the additional seats - especially when a single 5-car 720 seats as many as an 8-car 317/379 - which were standard formations off-peak pre COVID.

 

[87015]

Yes, platform 11 will be extended.

Still in dispute isn’t it?

 

[Domk]

The Stratford - Meridian Water shuttle is half 720 and 317 today

 

[Peter Mugridge]

720 584 on test at Liverpool Street.

Anyone who saw the first version of this post please ignore it!!! Just chased it and found it has the door barriers on...

One that positively is confirmed as new in service is 720 530; I am currently sitting on it... 13.47 Liverpool Street to Braintree service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

720 584 confirmed in service; on a Cambridge North diagram today. Next working the 13.28 from Liverpool Street.

Perfect, thank you.

This is what I have remaining as not entered service yet (original /5 batch)

501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509,
510, 512, 513, 514, 516, 518, 519,
520, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529,
530, 532, 533, 534,
541, 544,
555,
572, 579,
582, 583, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589

 

[Wivenswold]

So, and I could well be wrong, I have 516, 526 and 584 at Ilford and not in service yet.

One of the worries many of us had when the new fleet was announced was that many 8 car diagrams would become 5 car. The numbers of seats are similar but when 40 of them are tip-up seats by doors and it's 3+2, then I'd rather be on a packed 8 car consist than a 5 car one.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

720 584 on test at Liverpool Street.

Anyone who saw the first version of this post please ignore it!!! Just chased it and found it has the door barriers on...

One that positively is confirmed as new in service is 720 530; I am currently sitting on it... 13.47 Liverpool Street to Braintree service.

Ahh I see.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

So, and I could well be wrong, I have 516, 526 and 584 at Ilford and not in service yet.

One of the worries many of us had when the new fleet was announced was that many 8 car diagrams would become 5 car. The numbers of seats are similar but when 40 of them are tip-up seats by doors and it's 3+2, then I'd rather be on a packed 8 car consist than a 5 car one.

Since both old and new are 3+2 and the number of seats not in doors is practically the same, I don't see the issue with a 5 car replacing 2 x 8 for nearly all diagrams. That is of course unless the Loading is 'full and standing', when the loss of 6 vestibules, plus the extra tip up seats significantly reduce the standing area available.

You would hope however that any 5 car diagram that persistently had significant standees, would be doubled up in any working timetable revision. A 2 X 5 of course, gives 25% more seats than an old 3 x 4 formation. Which is of course why the DfT specified the high density seat layout.

I suppose those who prefer to stand when seats are still available might feel the loss of vestibules.

 

[Kite159]

Since both old and new are 3+2 and the number of seats not in doors is practically the same, I don't see the issue with a 5 car replacing 2 x 8 for nearly all diagrams. That is of course unless the Loading is 'full and standing', when the loss of 6 vestibules, plus the extra tip up seats significantly reduce the standing area available.

You would hope however that any 5 car diagram that persistently had significant standees, would be doubled up in any working timetable revision. A 2 X 5 of course, gives 25% more seats than an old 3 x 4 formation. Which is of course why the DfT specified the high density seat layout.

I suppose those who prefer to stand when seats are still available might feel the loss of vestibules.

Doesn't help that the aisles are narrow on a 720 which does mean some passengers will prefer to stand in the vestibule area rather than moving down the aisle to stand as they worry they might get blocked in and be unable to exit the train in time for their stop

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ahh I see.

Now I'm back at home rather than on the phone, I feel a fuller explanation is in order!

I was on board 720 573 en rote to Tottenham Hale on a speculative move hoping that something required might turn up on one of the inbounds; while crossing the Walthamstow Marshes, 720 584 came past. Nothing else came past before we got to Tottenham Hale so I checked RTT for what was the previous up working, but didn't think to check the detailed version as well for any ecs movements...

When I wrote my original version of the post, I was on the way back to Liverpool Street on a pair of 317s hoping to make what was a +1 for the 13.28, but upon getting in I found the 13.28 was another pair of 317s and the 720 was in the next platform with the red "not in service" barriers across the inside of the doors. It was at that point that I edited the original post, but for some reason the phone didn't show me that you'd already quoted and replied to it even though I had been out of the forum and cleared the tabs in the meantime.

The second edit was a few minutes later when I found 720 530 on the Braintree train - which was in itself fortunate because I was about to head to Bethnal Green to do some photos, and I managed to exit the 710 in question just as the door started beeping...

Summary: I can only confirm 720 530 as having joined the list of those in use.

 

[XAM2175]

but for some reason the phone didn't show me that you'd already quoted and replied to it even though I had been out of the forum and cleared the tabs in the meantime.

TT's posts have to be approved by a moderator before they're visible to everybody else, after which they appear in the thread marked with the time TT posted rather than the time they were approved. You will have made your update in the time between TT posting and the moderator giving approval.

 

[Domk]

Based on a tweet from GA yesterday, there maybe 2x5 720s out on the WA lines this evening because of the Tottenham match. They have warnings about which carriages to be in and a visual on where to be on the train.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Based on a tweet from GA yesterday, there maybe 2x5 720s out on the WA lines this evening because of the Tottenham match. They have warnings about which carriages to be in and a visual on where to be on the train.

That's interesting, and will be very much needed for calls at Northumberland Park when the No. 1 team are playing It's absolutely heaving, more so even from White Hart Lane in my experience. They often call the Stansted Express there then too, of which the 12 carriages will likely be much appreciated - the narrow corridors and single set of doors less so.

Out of interest, is Northumberland Park one of the short platform stations? It's almost guaranteed several fans will get caught out if so, unless GA have planned a fairly generous dwell time. In my experience, if you join any carriage of a Tottenham Train at the prime match time, you'll have difficulty walking into a different one.

 

[ashkeba]

Since both old and new are 3+2 and the number of seats not in doors is practically the same, I don't see the issue with a 5 car replacing 2 x 8 for nearly all diagrams.

That "practically the same" is not correct, is it? 2x317 is 584 seats, 1x720 is 540 seats but 40 flip-up, so 500 real, so about 15% fewer, plus the limited cramped standing space already discussed.

Should have ordered one of the existing layouts. And yes, I blame DfT prioritizing a loaded question from GEML surveys for dumping this train on WAML users.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Honestly, the fuss about these trains is making me laugh, it really is. It does highlight somewhat spoilt attitudes; the trains are a good upgrade on the previous mainstay of the WA (317 not 379, which was the Stansted Express fleet, not the West Anglia fleet, apart from a few diagrams to Cambridge) with plug sockets, air conditioning and improved passenger information which weren't present before.

At the moment, while more trains are accepted and platform lengths are sorted out, the trains are being operated with five carriages. While not ideal, the level of seating available is roughly the same as an 8 carriage configuration of longer stock... some passengers may prefer not to sit in middle 3+2 seats, but that is their choice and the point is the option is there.

And even if there wasn't enough capacity, I've said it above - while more trains are accepted and platform lengths are sorted out - ten carriage trains are coming.

I think what's happened is the introduction of the 745 has led to West Anglia line users getting used to the cascaded 379s, and now assuming that any new stock on the route should be of a similar quality. But at the end of the day, those 379s - apart from the handful of Cambridge diagrams - have never been the main fleet of the West Anglia lines. That role was upheld by the 317s, and the 720s are a perfectly justifiable replacement.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit the 317s are not really a great train in terms of moving to the middle of the coach if you are a standee. But when you look at what happened on Great Northern (Thameslink) - whether you like the 700 or not, for the standee them move to 2+2 is a great improvement for the passenger. Reading many of the comments on this thread, it appears many would be happy had these trains not had 3+2 and they had gone for a Thameslink style 2+2 lots of standing room. (But without the cable duct)

Need to go an find one to see for myself how they compare with other units which are not ideal for crush loading such as the 465 networks and most of the 317 / 321 units that used to frequent the area.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

47727 is (as we speak) bringing in 720527 to Oxley for testing. 5Q12 headcode. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:08015/2022-02-09/detailed#allox_id=0

720586 and 720579 are at Oxley as well at the moment for testing.