Greater Anglia "harmonisation" deal for drivers

[HH]

When a TOC wins a franchise can it bring in new contracts for new staff which require, for example, Sunday and DOO or DCO working while maintaining existing contracts for TUPEd staff. And what is the average turnover of drivers and guards? So after a 7 year franchise what percentage of drivers and guards will be left on the old contracts?

1. TOCs can bring on new contracts for new staff, but they should expect that there might still be industrial action.
2. Drivers have very low turnover rates; essentially they retire or they maybe move to another TOC (which is franchise dependent, very few do, e.g. from XC or VT). Guards turnover is rather higher, because many will try to become drivers, for instance. With drivers, after a 7 year franchise, still 75% would have been there at the start on some franchises.

 

[driver_m]

Are we playing right wing/left wing bingo? Already noticed the NHS bomb being dropped on here, any more clichés?

 

[sprunt]

But it wouldn’t surprise me if some of you who wouldn’t like this would visit a 24/7 Tesco, so you should shut up and put up...

If you're going to play that game, can we assume that not a single driver that doesn't work on Sunday goes in a shop on Sunday either?

 

[Gooner18]

So , this thread is going way deep lol. I only wanted to know what is was all about , and what they had and what was on offer.

Can , worms comes to mind lol

 

[DanDaDriver]

If you're going to play that game, can we assume that not a single driver that doesn't work on Sunday goes in a shop on Sunday either?

I imagine they do. But (and I really cant simplify it for you any more than this) when you go to work at Tesco, they tell you that you will be working Sundays, they give you a contract that says this, and you say “sure thing!” and sign it.

That’s what happens with new drivers, btw.

 

[Sleepy]

and of course at Tesco (and any other large retailer) you can decide to stop working Sundays as it is written in law - Sunday Trading Act 1994 that it's voluntary ! Retail employers must hate it.

 

[Gooner18]

On my offers GA Sunday’s are OT , other one 26 Sunday’s you have to work any after that are voluntary

 

[JamesT]

I imagine they do. But (and I really cant simplify it for you any more than this) when you go to work at Tesco, they tell you that you will be working Sundays, they give you a contract that says this, and you say “sure thing!” and sign it.

That’s what happens with new drivers, btw.

New drivers are on contracts that include Sundays? I thought half the problem was the unions will not accept people having different conditions which would allow for changes to be made gradually.

 

[DanDaDriver]

New drivers are on contracts that include Sundays? I thought half the problem was the unions will not accept people having different conditions which would allow for changes to be made gradually.

Sorry, that was my fault, I should have been clearer, if Sunday’s come in than any new drivers will be on a Sunday inclusive contract.

 

[whhistle]

I'm surprised how riled some posters get :/

Not my TOC, but I’m willing to bet a months pay that this has sweet **** all to do with religion.

You've missed the point.

I question why (some) people are desperate to have Sundays off, or want extra pay on a Sunday, or why we have shorter opening hours for shops on a Sunday. My answer is that people see Sundays as "the day of rest" - 50 years ago most people had Sundays off... all stemming from our heritage of religion in this country.

Now we're in modern times where [our religious heritage] is being eroded from society, why are Sundays still being treated any different to a Saturday, or a Wednesday?

Right, let's knock this religion BS right on its head. It ain't that and using it as an argument for/against is ridiculous .
Now we can have another @whhistle style post here and say to me if you don't like it, get another job.

Are these what the terms have been?
Because I believe you're the first one to come out and say what GA Drivers are fighting for/against.

But thank you for assuming I support certain political parties. FYI, I can't stand any higher level politics as they're all just old people chasing after titles from the Queen and grabbing as much to fill a pension pot as they can.

I am also not a fan of people who refuse to accept change.
The company has to be realistic, but so does the staff.

Whether you like it or not, there is still a choice whether you get another job or not. Many don't seem to think this is a choice. I struggle with that and often come up against silly suggestions like "quitting on Monday" and "spend a year looking for a new job... no money to pay bills".

But again, you have missed the point about Sundays and didn't explain why you covert that day so much compared with any other day of the week.

Trust me, I don't have time to offend, I just struggle to understand why people struggle to accept there is nearly always a choice. Lots of hassle yes, but you're not a slave :P

 

[whhistle]

How many industries, sectors, jobs, roles etc actually still work Sundays ? I live near a major retail park. There are still some stores that will not open on Sunday.

Many, but I agree there are a huge amount that don't still. Hence we have this problem of people's expectations that they can contact companies on a weekend, when they can't. Ending up in what is seen as bad customer service.
Which shops out of interest? I can understand independents but big chains?

I don't think it's about "day of rest". Reality is many people **DO NOT** want to work weekends full stop. In fact, one can add other times to that as well, like Christmas, Easter, half-term weeks, summer holidays, major football matches, and probably more besides.

A well constructed reply and one that explains things better rather than being all angry about my post.
Perhaps also weekends circle round schooling more as that will always be Monday to Friday so time off with the family is important.
I wonder how West Midlands will cope with their massive increase in Sunday services looming.

So, I'm guessing you'll be happy to work Sundays when you originally signed up to a Mon-Fri contract?

A good question.
But were the drivers originally on a Mon-Fri contract? I don't think so :P So let's compare like for like here.
If I got more money in the short time to [work Christmas time], then I'd accept but be looking for another job. Although I work more Saturdays than not at the moment anyway.

I can quite honestly say you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe when you actually understand what you are talking about you might come back to this thread and make a sincere apology!

An apology for what? Having a point of view?
That people have equally got on their high horse about rather than provide a point to help change my point of view? It seems that's the way these days. If someone has an opposing point of view, it's insults and pitch forks rather than a "well think about it this way" sort of approach.
Unfortunately because nobody has decided to post even the slightest of details, I can only form an opinion on what I have read.

 

[HH]

I think some of my driver friends are being disingenuous. The railways run every day of the week, so there is a direct comparison to supermarkets. Somebody has to drive the trains on a Sunday, so it's either other drivers or cancelled trains.

That it's not compulsory on a few TOCs is an aberration, one that is only possible due to the high rate of pay enjoyed by drivers, the ready availability of overtime and the strong bargaining position drivers hold with regard to Operators. It's not a sustainable position and my view is that we are not long away from this being recognised as a problem.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think some of my driver friends are being disingenuous. The railways run every day of the week, so there is a direct comparison to supermarkets. Somebody has to drive the trains on a Sunday, so it's either other drivers or cancelled trains.

Taking the retail market as an analogy if you go back in time the retail market had similar terms. Staff were not contracted to work on Sunday and for the most part, stores were closed. As Sunday opening has increased over time you see how the employee have changed too. Sunday can be over time or paid at a premium. This is also similar to the Railway. Sunday is paid as overtime and/or at a premium rate. So far so good in terms of a supermarket comparison.

Sunday trading restricts opening times. So therefore should the railway also follow suit with a restricted service and restricted times ? A lot of the time this is indeed the case. A 'Sunday service' is operated. Both retail and Rail still run skeleton crews at the weekends with a lot of work covered by overtime.

This is where Retail and Rail start to diverge. Retail stores, especially the larger stores run with a very flexible workforce. The have the opportunity to provide adequate cover because they can offer Sunday contracts, limited hour contracts (typically to cover weekends etc) part time, and even zero hours. So whilst both retail and rail staff are covered by their specific contracts; retail wins out because of the way it runs its staff.

Retail also diverges with its operating times. Granted there are a few places where 24hr supermarkets open but have you looked at the staffing ? Again, its typically a skeleton crew and staff who are on specific contracts (night workers etc) However, in general retail still runs a 9-5 mentality. High streets are dying and destination shopping with greater access and longer opening times are much more desirable.

For the railway to run in keeping with the retail/supermarket analogy you need to shift how Drivers are employed and how they are contracted. Should we have Part time Drivers? Should there be a 16hr a week contracts just to get cover for the weekend ? What about zero hour staffing ?

Even in retail you still get problems where staff refuse to work overtime and staff refuse to work outside their hours. No matter what industry, if you force staff into a situation they don't like they will end up refusing to help.

 

[Tractor2018]

So , this thread is going way deep lol. I only wanted to know what is was all about , and what they had and what was on offer.

Do you work for the company or are you a driver at another company?

 

[Meerkat]

Ignoring any union objections do you think there would be a demand for part time driving jobs?
I would imagine quite a few enthusiasts would fancy a Sundays only job! However the economics of having to train them might be difficult...(unless it’s still cheaper than overtime - which would cause friction with those currently getting the overtime...)
Maybe a role for drivers/ex-drivers who want to semi-retire or reduce hours due to parent/carer responsibilities.
Is there any history of contract drivers, available for weekends and holidays, or do the unions make sure that never happens?

 

[Gooner18]

Do you work for the company or are you a driver at another company?

I am currently not but will be starting in January with either arriva or GA

 

[ComUtoR]

Ignoring any union objections do you think there would be a demand for part time driving jobs?

I think there would be a demand. Just take a look at the demand for the Night Tube.

Maybe a role for drivers/ex-drivers who want to semi-retire or reduce hours due to parent/carer responsibilities.

I know a number of Drivers who would willingly drop their hours to part time. The job share system doesn't work and personally I think is unfair. I couldn't give an honest assessment of who is to blame here. Union or TOC

Is there any history of contract drivers, available for weekends and holidays, or do the unions make sure that never happens?

We have a brief bout with some Freight Drivers helping out on a part time contact basis. Forcing Sundays on existing staff is just an antiquated approach. If GTR can take a new approach I don't see why others can' follow.

 

[HH]

The problem with hiring part time drivers (as opposed to existing drivers moving to part time after years of service) is that they take just as long, and are just as expensive, to train. Otherwise you can bet the farm that TOCs would be doing it.

 

[ComUtoR]

So lets keep doing it on the cheap with minimal staffing level keeping the same problem of running on overtime and good will. That's the problem with using the supermarket analogy. You only want to use half of it as as the example while forgetting the rest.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It makes me laugh when shift workers choose to have kids, then moan that work gets in the way...

He did no such thing. He stated that he did not want to give up a contractual condition that allows him to have a day off with his children.

 

[driver_m]

"But again, you have missed the point about Sundays and didn't explain why you covert that day so much compared with any other day of the week."

Quoting @whhistle here


Did you not see the one word I highlighted
OVERTIME!!!

If you work afternoons. , You have to get back to mornings at some point, the natural place to put that break in currently is the weekend for blatantly obvious reasons. So therefore it goes without saying that the weekend in this situation .will tend to have no Sunday job to enable hidden requirements, minimum rest periods etc to reset themselves .

Now if you were to go to a 4 day week with Sundays in. You're the resources manager, you know Saturday is the hardest day to cover. So you would naturally try and move to changeover period to one avoiding that day. Hence midweek suddenly becoming the favoured changeover point, you can see straight away the industrial relations will plummet, and the union will do what it can to counter that, however, this is where the union and the drivers are out of step. The 4 day week is treated with huge suspicion by the drivers, the union is all for it. Add to that the loss of annual leave because of going to a 4 day week. Can you see how this is not an incremental change but almost a revolution in working terms, and further to add, a TOC may have financial incentives to gets drivers to work Sundays .Again, you take that away, why would.someone come in? Now I'm not party to this deal. I don't know what's in it exactly, but I suspect that I'm not far off in terms of what is being demanded and the huge rejection means the drivers feel they're being both short changed and stitched up.

 

[driver_m]

As an aside. The union is not against job share. I've no idea where that's come from. I've known it occur on XC between two old hands. I'd imagine it wouldn't be given to new drivers due to the training costs for management. Paying twice as much for no extra benefit. Go down that road and I could well imagine going down the route of airlines where a prospective driver has to pay their own training just to get a job.

 

[Tractor2018]

I am currently not but will be starting in January with either arriva or GA

Ah, ok.

Tip - when you're in the grade, which you'll start in January, don't share the details of things like pay discussions on social media.

With that in mind, only a plonker will tell you on here. Best just to wait and see what happens.

Good luck in your new career.

 

[HH]

Why would there be a loss of Annual Leave?

The TOC should pay a small additional amount on salary to reflect the loss of overtime enhancement. That amount varies from TOC to TOC, so at some TOCs this might not be much of an enhancement.

As for the changeover point, I doubt very much that the TOC would want all changeovers to be done Midweek, but I would expect it to want some re-balancing. In fact, it's probably necessary.

Fact is that people dislike change. Thameslink Drivers love their "circadian" roster and wouldn't change, but nobody else appears to want it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why would there be a loss of Annual Leave?

Because of the way in which its calculated on a pro rata basis. Some believe that it comes as a loss, some believe because its pro rata nothing is really lost and some do not see the gain in non worked days as a gain.

Fact is that people dislike change. Thameslink Drivers love their "circadian" roster and wouldn't change, but nobody else appears to want it.

Neither side wants change. Sadly to do it right will cost money.

 

[driver_m]

I am currently not but will be starting in January with either arriva or GA

Best wishes in your driving career pal. And don't get too frustrated with some of the rubbish posted about us on here. Only have to look at how many threads there are on this very forum about trying to become a driver, to know that there's a lot of envy.

 

[bramling]

I question why (some) people are desperate to have Sundays off, or want extra pay on a Sunday, or why we have shorter opening hours for shops on a Sunday. My answer is that people see Sundays as "the day of rest" - 50 years ago most people had Sundays off... all stemming from our heritage of religion in this country.

Now we're in modern times where [our religious heritage] is being eroded from society, why are Sundays still being treated any different to a Saturday, or a Wednesday?

FWIW, the following is my personal view. I'm not religious - if ticking a box I would tick "no religion".

However, personally I like the idea of Sunday being a, sort of, "day of rest". Thinking back to the 1990s, it was possible to enjoy a nice relaxing day on a Sunday, peaceful roads and the like. Nowadays Sundays are a pain-in-the-arse, with the highlight of the week for some families seeming to be a Sunday day out to Tesco's or the local retail park. I can drive to work at midday on a weekday in 35 minutes, however at the same time on a Sunday it's now completely unpredictable - some times it can take double.

Having said all this, I work some weekends, and - apart from the fact that weekends are becoming an increasing pain the arse to work for various reasons mainly associated with transport - I'm quite happy with this as I value having days off in the week, which I find are now more pleasant for most leisure activities. The snag is however that some things can only be done at weekends.

However, I seem to by atypical in all this. At work I'd say 90% of the people I work with literally obsess over getting weekends off.

I tend to be rather cynical about all this. Soon we will have the usual moaning about Christmas, which always boils down to "*I* personally don't want to work, but I expect to have access to all the usual range of facilities and services over my two weeks of leisure".

 

[Carlisle]

So lets keep doing it on the cheap with minimal staffing level keeping the same problem of running on overtime and good will. .

Main problem is, almost no part of the operation of the railway is cheap, if you want cheap, then its buses minicabs cycleing or walking

 

[hooverboy]

New drivers are on contracts that include Sundays? I thought half the problem was the unions will not accept people having different conditions which would allow for changes to be made gradually.

if I was a TOC i would basically state working week entitlement as 1 guaranteed rest day,plus one "sabbath" rest day per week...that is nice and politically correct....meaning that you get friday off if you're muslim,saturday if you're jewish/adventist and sunday if you are catholic.

...that way weekend working of any sort is basically fully covered!

 

[bramling]

For the railway to run in keeping with the retail/supermarket analogy you need to shift how Drivers are employed and how they are contracted. Should we have Part time Drivers? Should there be a 16hr a week contracts just to get cover for the weekend ? What about zero hour staffing ?

I'd say let's do that - but at the same time pass on the costs of doing that onto the users, so higher fares for Sunday travel. People might not be so keen then!