Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[Trainfan344]

Turned out to be 156 417.

 

[chubs]

A 'mock up' of the new flirts:

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/moto...h-will-make-norwich-in-90-a-reality-1-5050602

sadly the mockup looks very incomplete, and they barely show you any of it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Glad to see they're still hiding the seat pitch issue by doing a mock-up without any airline seats.

One month ago I was told they would get back to me with the seat pitch question and there would be no further delay in giving me this information after avoiding answering the question for the previous few months.

Needless to say as of today I have heard nothing from them and any follow-up questions about it have been fobbed off with a media spin answer that does not answer the question asked.

It's about time Abellio stopped dodging the question and be honest about how cramped these new trains are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Glad to see they're still hiding the seat pitch issue by doing a mock-up without any airline seats.

Eh? On the right is a row of airline seats immediately behind the ones closest to the camera.

It's a bit of a cheap and nasty mockup, though, isn't it? The ScotRail Hitachi mockup looked and felt like the real thing inside.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Eh? On the right is a row of airline seats immediately behind the ones closest to the camera.

It's a bit of a cheap and nasty mockup, though, isn't it? The ScotRail Hitachi mockup looked and felt like the real thing inside.

We've seen about a dozen photos of a FLIRT now and still haven't seen one which gives a real indication of what the seat pitch is like for airline seats, they are all hidden behind other things or camera shots and videos are being edited in a way so it's not possible to judge it.

Why is Abellio keen to avoid directly answering questions about seat pitch and showing it for airline seats? Why is it kept as something like a state secret? Why not just answer the bloody question and put it to bed?

The first rule in marketing is if you think something might go down badly don't say it at all or try and spin it and steer discussion away to something to make it look better or avoid shots which show the gbad point.

That is what I suspect what they are trying to do like any good marketing director and PR consultant would tell them to do, which is obviously why they are doing it.

ABELLIO IF YOU ARE READING THIS

Q: What is the seat pitch on the standard airline seat.
(All we need is a figure, no media spin, just a figure)

You have promised two rail user groups this figure months ago and still have not provided it
You have promised several people this information for months but still have not provided it.

What do you have to hide?

Answer the bloody question.

 

[AlexNL]

I'm starting to think that Abellio themselves don't know yet.

For all we know, DfT might just want a say on the interior layout of the new trains which has been delayed due to the upcoming election.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm starting to think that Abellio themselves don't know yet.

For all we know, DfT might just want a say on the interior layout of the new trains which has been delayed due to the upcoming election.

They know, believe me, they even told me that they have that information, don't seem to want to pass it on though...

It's laughable how many months they are trying to avoid to answer a basic question.

They're either incompetent or they're hiding something.

 

[CosherB]

We've seen about a dozen photos of a FLIRT now and still haven't seen one which gives a real indication of what the seat pitch is like for airline seats, they are all hidden behind other things or camera shots and videos are being edited in a way so it's not possible to judge it.

Why is Abellio keen to avoid directly answering questions about seat pitch and showing it for airline seats? Why is it kept as something like a state secret? Why not just answer the bloody question and put it to bed?

The first rule in marketing is if you think something might go down badly don't say it at all or try and spin it and steer discussion away to something to make it look better or avoid shots which show the gbad point.

That is what I suspect what they are trying to do like any good marketing director and PR consultant would tell them to do, which is obviously why they are doing it.

ABELLIO IF YOU ARE READING THIS

Q: What is the seat pitch on the standard airline seat.
(All we need is a figure, no media spin, just a figure)

You have promised two rail user groups this figure months ago and still have not provided it
You have promised several people this information for months but still have not provided it.

What do you have to hide?

Answer the bloody question.

I doubt it.

 

[jopsuk]

Watching the video, it was clear that airline seats are part of the mock-up and that it was a press event.

So, where is the mock-up? Will it be moved to somewhere publicly available? If they did that, then a forum outing armed with tape measures would seem a good plan!

 

[dk1]

Watching the video, it was clear that airline seats are part of the mock-up and that it was a press event.

So, where is the mock-up? Will it be moved to somewhere publicly available? If they did that, then a forum outing armed with tape measures would seem a good plan!

Crown Point.

 

[Martin222002]

Greater Anglia News on Twitter (@GreaterAngliaPR) posted a series of Periscope videos yesterday looking around the mock up.

https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1OdJryAbYrlGX
https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1vAxRbMzgZPxl
https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1zqKVAMzRvAxB
https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1ynJOjozRelGR
https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1DXxyyElRERxM

Also Rail's Richard Clinnick was there too and posted a photo and two Periscope video's of the mock up on Twitter as well.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBoJvewXcAABpvg.jpg
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1PlKQAQzAmVKE
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1mnxeErkdvrxX

While I agree with the comments about how the mock up looks incomplete, it seems to be the case that this is not an example of the final interior. As can be seen by the varying styles of seating throughout the mock up, though they seem to be the same seat frame, the aforementioned Fisa Lean, just with different seat cushions.

Regarding seat comfort, in a Twitter exchange with Christian Wolmar (https://twitter.com/wolmarforlondon/status/872075867199066112), where he says "they look hard and ugly", Richard Clinnick replys "They're not too bad. The std seats are on other side. Prefer these to the IC70 seats currently in place. Proof will be when in traffic." Of cause seat comfort is a matter of personal opinion.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Martin - in our battle to get the seat pitch data we were told the mock-up would be an example of the final interior, we were also told that we would have had the seat pitch data a while ago but it's not been forthcoming.

I'm not talking about traincomfort, I'm talking about seat pitch of airline seats, the two are very different things, don't be fooled by Abellio into batting off questions about seat pitch by a politicians answer about the trains providing greater levels of comfort - it's essentially avoiding the question, because the seat pitch is lower.

It's amazing that Abellio and have managed to produce a so called train carriage mock-up without a single pair of standard airline seats in the whole thing aside from the ones with MASSIVE leg-room which is no where near representative of a real carriage, as it has two classes, three different types of seat, different cushions and looks nothing like a real train carriage.

It's time to cry halt to all this crap and Abellio to stop hiding the fact that the interior of these trains is bargain basement squash them all in sardine like manner that substantially downgrades the comfort of passenger experience for everyone who uses them as part of a vanity exercise. They

For the last six months myself and others have been trying to get info from them on seat pitch and seat comfort and Abellio have a track record that shows they simply cannot be trusted to deliver on what they say they would.

We will answer that question shortly they say: Several months later they still have not answered it
You will see in the mock-up of a real carriage they say: The so called mock-up isn't a mock-up at all

Abellio are going out their way to avoid giving all of us on this thread the bad news about a seat pitch, they refuse to provide the kind of mock-up that they promised would be representative of a real carriage (it isn't) and they are still refusing to answer a question about seat pitch (several months later)

I'm still waiting for the "full mock-up" of the "final design" and the promise that "we will certainly get back to you with that information." shortly promise to be honored. I'm only someone who pays through the nose every year, I'm not a Abellio board member screaming out FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT YES FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT every five minutes though so I guess I and the others who pay thousands every year don't matter in this vanity exercise.

 

[urpert]

What do the red and white stickers on the back of the tables on the left say, I wonder?

 

[Martin222002]

I'm not talking about seat comfort, I'm talking about seat pitch of airline seats, the two are very different things, don't be fooled by Abellio into batting off questions about seat pitch by a politicians answer about the trains providing greater levels of comfort - it's essentially avoiding the question, because the seat pitch is lower.

My comments about seat comfort weren't actually in reply to your post about seat pitch. I was just posting what had been reported by a member of the rail media. :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not talking about seat comfort, I'm talking about seat pitch of airline seats

The answer to your question seems to be visible on this video:

https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1vAxRbMzgZPxl

and is 770mm. I think this is similar to Voyagers? Quite tight, then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks rather like the "big bog" has a manual door like the Swiss ones - better reliability? But is it accessible enough?

 

[F Great Eastern]

The answer to your question seems to be visible on this video:

https://www.pscp.tv/GreaterAngliaPR/1vAxRbMzgZPxl

and is 770mm. I think this is similar to Voyagers? Quite tight, then.

That isn't a standard class carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't a standard class carriage.

The seating plan they show you on the wall in that video includes a Standard (2+2) area, which is where I got that measurement from.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Thing is it's standard in FLIRTS' for mixed carriages to have different pitch to the ones that are all one class because it lead.

Still it's budget airline style, less than Ryanair's current preferred seat pitch.

That's before you account for the niche being horrible for tall people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thing is it's standard in FLIRTS' for mixed carriages to have different pitch to the ones that are all one class because it lead.

Still it's budget airline style

Only to the extent that the Voyager/Pendolino are.

Personally, I think it's pretty good. The Norwich to London service barely justifies any more than a bog-standard regional EMU like a 350/1 or something. What they're getting is to me far nicer than a Voyager, Pendolino or similar.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It deserves a proper seat though, essentially it's getting a regional short hop thin and light seat. I'm not saying it deserves a long distance seat, but it deserves more than a seat and layout which is designed for short hops.

The original proposal for the layout of the train was a good one, I'd be really interested as to why Abellio decided to rip the originally agreed intercity spec seat out that appeared in the initial announcement photos in favour of the cheaper regional one.

The obvious conclusion is price, but if that is the case it suggests that as I suspected, they couldn't give a damn about me or you.

 

[Rick1984]

That the Bistro counter in background?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, watch the videos and you can see the layout of it.

 

[Clip]

Keeps telling me I need an app to view the videos. Still bemused about how much consternation there is abotu seat pitch though

 

[Martin222002]

Martin - in our battle to get the seat pitch data we were told the mock-up would be an example of the final interior, we were also told that we would have had the seat pitch data a while ago but it's not been forthcoming.

I'm not talking about traincomfort, I'm talking about seat pitch of airline seats, the two are very different things, don't be fooled by Abellio into batting off questions about seat pitch by a politicians answer about the trains providing greater levels of comfort - it's essentially avoiding the question, because the seat pitch is lower.

It's amazing that Abellio and have managed to produce a so called train carriage mock-up without a single pair of standard airline seats in the whole thing aside from the ones with MASSIVE leg-room which is no where near representative of a real carriage, as it has two classes, three different types of seat, different cushions and looks nothing like a real train carriage.

It's time to cry halt to all this crap and Abellio to stop hiding the fact that the interior of these trains is bargain basement squash them all in sardine like manner that substantially downgrades the comfort of passenger experience for everyone who uses them as part of a vanity exercise. They

For the last six months myself and others have been trying to get info from them on seat pitch and seat comfort and Abellio have a track record that shows they simply cannot be trusted to deliver on what they say they would.

We will answer that question shortly they say: Several months later they still have not answered it
You will see in the mock-up of a real carriage they say: The so called mock-up isn't a mock-up at all

Abellio are going out their way to avoid giving all of us on this thread the bad news about a seat pitch, they refuse to provide the kind of mock-up that they promised would be representative of a real carriage (it isn't) and they are still refusing to answer a question about seat pitch (several months later)

I'm still waiting for the "full mock-up" of the "final design" and the promise that "we will certainly get back to you with that information." shortly promise to be honored. I'm only someone who pays through the nose every year, I'm not a Abellio board member screaming out FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT YES FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT every five minutes though so I guess I and the others who pay thousands every year don't matter in this vanity exercise.

Thank you for changing your post after I'd replied to it.

If you actually listen to all the information that GA has put out yesterday you would know that this is the design mock up as built by Stadler as part of the design process for the interior of their Flirt trains they are ordering. What GA has done is that they have had this mock up shipped in from Stadler in Switzerland so that passenger groups & interested parties can have their input into the interior design before the design is frozen reday for production, which Rail has reported as being at the end of this month (http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/greater-anglia-unveils-interior-plans-for-new-trains?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&image=25719). As mentioned in my previous post this will explain the different seat designs and maybe even the variations in layout.

So maybe rather than moaning about it not being the final mock up with definitive seating pitches, maybe you could do something more constructive and actually give GA your input into the interior design before the design has to be frozen ready for production.

 

[F Great Eastern]

If you actually listen to all the information that GA has put out yesterday you would know that this is the design mock up as built by Stadler as part of the design process for the interior of their Flirt trains they are ordering.

If you've been reading my posts over the last few months you will realise that Abellio have been fobbing myself and rail user groups off for a while now and have spent months avoiding answering a straight forward question with multiple broken promises, they also have stated that the mock-up will be based on what the final product would be, that is what they said, not me.

So maybe rather than moaning about it not being the final mock up with definitive seating pitches, maybe you could do something more constructive and actually give GA your input into the interior design before the design has to be frozen ready for production.

I have been giving my input, I have been asking questions for the last few months, I have been trying to get information from Abellio, many people have been doing so but to date Abellio have continued to say things that they do not keep to, say they will get back to people and they never do.

According to what you are saying they will have this non representative mock-up and then there will be no mock-up of the final version, it will just be built based on feedback of a non representative mock-up and we will just have to wait to the real thing to have any idea of what it will be like in reality.

Abellio continue to avoid answering straight questions and simply haven't provided the kind of mock-up that they promised, so rather than ranting at me for attempting to hold them to account, why don't you ask Abellio to be transparent and to answer the question and to deliver and carry out what they say they will.

It's about time Abellio started walking the walk than just talking the talk.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Where we are:
- Abellio have spent months ignoring questions on seat pitch
- Abellio have used every excuse under the sun to avoid saying it
- Abellio pointed us towards a mock-up which they claimed will be representative of your average airline seat
- Abellio have procured a mock-up that contains no standard airline seats that will be representative of seat pitch

This is a classic case of PR and marketing spin at work and is the next chapter in Abellio's vanity exercise when it comes to these new FLIRTS to absolve them of all blame in the future, you might want to be putty to this game, but as someone who will have to use these trains every day to work, I'm not buying it.

The question is, why have this "design freeze" and "consultation" when they were not already planning to?
It's obvious. By opening up a consultation without airline seats that are representative of what will be in the final product, they can minimise any negative comments because people will not see just how cramped these seats will be.

I firmly believe this mock-up is a box ticking exercise by showing a passengers a layout which is not going to be representative of a real train, allowing Abellio to use the excuse of "it wasn't brought up in the consultation" further down the line, despite the fact none of the airline style standard seats were available.

Abellio - My Challenge to you
I'm calling on you to close the mock-up and re-arrange it to be exactly like it will be in the plans that have been outlined by Stadler with the same seat pitch and layout that is included in this plan.

If you are really interested about a consultation you will allow people to sample the train how you have proposed it to be so they can see for sure how it will be like in your plans.

Giving someone a mock-up that is not representative of how the vast number of passengers will be traveling on your train is not a sufficient consultation and is yet another vanity exercise.

 

[CosherB]

Where we are:
- Abellio have spent months ignoring questions on seat pitch
- Abellio have used every excuse under the sun to avoid saying it
- Abellio pointed us towards a mock-up which they claimed will be representative of your average airline seat
- Abellio have procured a mock-up that contains no standard airline seats that will be representative of seat pitch

This is a classic case of PR and marketing spin at work and is the next chapter in Abellio's vanity exercise when it comes to these new FLIRTS to absolve them of all blame in the future, you might want to be putty to this game, but as someone who will have to use these trains every day to work, I'm not buying it.

The question is, why have this "design freeze" and "consultation" when they were not already planning to?
It's obvious. By opening up a consultation without airline seats that are representative of what will be in the final product, they can minimise any negative comments because people will not see just how cramped these seats will be.

I firmly believe this mock-up is a box ticking exercise by showing a passengers a layout which is not going to be representative of a real train, allowing Abellio to use the excuse of "it wasn't brought up in the consultation" further down the line, despite the fact none of the airline style standard seats were available.

Abellio - My Challenge to you
I'm calling on you to close the mock-up and re-arrange it to be exactly like it will be in the plans that have been outlined by Stadler with the same seat pitch and layout that is included in this plan.

If you are really interested about a consultation you will allow people to sample the train how you have proposed it to be so they can see for sure how it will be like in your plans.

Giving someone a mock-up that is not representative of how the vast number of passengers will be traveling on your train is not a sufficient consultation and is yet another vanity exercise.

If you haven't already, try the direct approach, instead of banging on and on about it here.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/contact-us

 

[F Great Eastern]

If you haven't already, try the direct approach, instead of banging on and on about it here.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/contact-us

Do you read anything I post? I've spent the last several months, along with others and rail user groups doing exactly that.

They have spent the last several months avoiding the question on seat pitch and comfort and providing various non-answers that Theresa May's election campaign would be very proud of.

I lost count on the number of times they suggest that they will get that information "tomorrow" or "next week" but it seems time doesn't pass in Abellio land because tomorrow and next week never seems to come.

They told us that the mock-up would be representative of the final design as well and from everything I have seen, it certainly isn't. There is a standard spaced airline seat in the plans that are inside the mock-up, but the mock-up itself is laid out very differently.

Calling it a mock up is laughable, because it's nothing of the sort, it's not anywhere near reflective of the actual plans, despite the fact one of the excuses for fobbing people off for months was "the mock-up will reflect the design."

Put simply - it doesn't.

 

[CosherB]

Moving away from seats for what will be, no doubt, a very brief pause, here is some contingency planning announced by GA.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/contingency-plans-in-place-for-greater-anglia-s-main-line-fleet?image=25726

In the event that the Stadler electric multiple units are not ready, or that the infrastructure is not in place to support the new trains, Greater Anglia will use Class 360 and Class 379 EMUs as cover, with the Class 90-hauled Mk 3 sets withdrawn by the end of 2019 as planned.

GA Deputy Managing Director Mike Kean told RAIL that although recently refurbished, the Mk 3s do not meet disability access requirements for the December 31 2019 deadline. The coaches need plug doors as well as passenger information systems and more grab rails. There are no plans for this work to be carried out.

Kean explained that the GA franchise has an extended lease for the ‘360’ and ‘379’ fleets until August 2020, which is a contingency in case of any delays. Both fleets meet the December 31 2019 deadline requirements. GA has 21 four-car Class 360s and 30 four-car Class 379s.*