Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[dk1]

The Stansted units will be diagrammed to work selected Norwich services on a fortnightly basis for heavy maintaince at Stadlers Crown Point Depot, but whether this is on Intercity or stopping services has not yet been confirmed. The Airport sets have no 1st class or Bistro so would imagine it's the latter.

 

[Alfie1014]

I find it odd that they've gone for two small fleets of 10 whilst I can understand the desire not to have catering on the Stansteds I'd have thought the flexibility of having one fleet of 20 units would have outweighed the disbenefits. As it stands they'll have nothing with First Class or catering to substitute when they're short of sets or there's disruption on the Norwich route. Also I can't imagine that MAG are terribly impressed that compared to Heathrow and. Gatwick their dedicated trains are only going to be Standard Class, it just seems to reinforce the idea that Stansted is a budget airline hub. I'd have thought with 20 sets of one design they might even be able to stretch availability by an extra unit, anyone for a revisited Cambridge Buffet Car Express!

 

[CosherB]

I find it odd that they've gone for two small fleets of 10 whilst I can understand the desire not to have catering on the Stansteds I'd have thought the flexibility of having one fleet of 20 units would have outweighed the disbenefits. As it stands they'll have nothing with First Class or catering to substitute when they're short of sets or there's disruption on the Norwich route. Also I can't imagine that MAG are terribly impressed that compared to Heathrow and. Gatwick their dedicated trains are only going to be Standard Class, it just seems to reinforce the idea that Stansted is a budget airline hub. I'd have thought with 20 sets of one design they might even be able to stretch availability by an extra unit, anyone for a revisited Cambridge Buffet Car Express!

That's because it is just that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is, though they could have offered First Class for a small supplement and they'd have used it. Must admit I too think a single FLIRT fleet would have been more sensible, not two.

 

[dp21]

It is, though they could have offered First Class for a small supplement and they'd have used it. Must admit I too think a single FLIRT fleet would have been more sensible, not two.

I may be wrong but I imagine its about providing an interior layour appropriate to each service. The aiport services having far more luggage capacity (I believe the 379s are somewhat bereft in this area) whereas thr Norwich services are more conventional intercities with as many seats as possible (and of course a buffet).

The current fleet runs withour a buffet sometimes in the case of faults; if an airport unit replaced a Norwich one they could sort a trolley. I dont see that being beyond reason. Or am I being ambitious?

I feel there will be a fair amount of swapping though as only having one unit out for maintenance at a time is optimistic IMO.

With regards first class I agree with your point Bletchleyite however I would be curious to see the usage stats for it at the moment. Maybe it just isn't being used enough?

The first unit arrives in, from what I was told, around 379 days so we shall see then whats what!

 

[Alfie1014]

That's because it is just that!

I don't disagree that that is the reality, but Stansted's owners seem to aspire to more. They've recently had approval to build a new arrivals building at the airport and only yesterday were campaigning to increase useage by another 10 million pax per year on the grounds that expansion at Heathrow (and most likely Gatwick too) will be mired in years of planning disputes before a sod is turned!

 

[MikePJ]

The one spec point that surprised me is that the Stansted trains have a lot more space for bicycles than the others.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Although the Stansted units aren't, capacity wise, like-for-like replacements of the 379s, I'd imagine that some at least will see Cambridge work? If so then I'd imagine the extra bike storage will be very handy indeed.

 

[dk1]

Stansted requires 8/10 units to operate a 15 minute frequency.

Norwich requires 9/10 units to operate a half hourly frequency (based on slightly accelerated timings & slightly shorter turnaround times to today, fast trains only).

 

[Wivenswold]

Norwich requires 9/10 units to operate a half hourly frequency (based on slightly accelerated timings & slightly shorter turnaround times to today, fast trains only).

So this backs up the 2 Intercity/1 Aventra per hour theory for the Norwich services. 10 car peaks, 5 car off peaks I'd think.

Is there any indication of the maximum peak unit requirement split of Aventras needed between WA and GE? I guess they will be interchangeable but it still seems like not a lot of units to go round, even if the 5 car units are equivalent to 6 cars in old money.

 

[dk1]

So this backs up the 2 Intercity/1 Aventra per hour theory for the Norwich services. 10 car peaks, 5 car off peaks I'd think.

Is there any indication of the maximum peak unit requirement split of Aventras needed between WA and GE? I guess they will be interchangeable but it still seems like not a lot of units to go round, even if the 5 car units are equivalent to 6 cars in old money.

Nothing definite yet. I keep trying though.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't disagree that that is the reality, but Stansted's owners seem to aspire to more. They've recently had approval to build a new arrivals building at the airport and only yesterday were campaigning to increase useage by another 10 million pax per year on the grounds that expansion at Heathrow (and most likely Gatwick too) will be mired in years of planning disputes before a sod is turned!

The future of air travel realistically belongs to the budget carriers. People spending their own money on travel care more about low fares than they do about onboard facilities, as they're only going to be on board for a few hours at most. Norwegian et al are developing the long-haul budget carrier model and they could start running transatlantic flights from Stansted. Heathrow simply won't see their predicted passenger growth because the landing fees they charge are far too high for new and marginal travellers.

 

[jopsuk]

Although the Stansted units aren't, capacity wise, like-for-like replacements of the 379s, I'd imagine that some at least will see Cambridge work? If so then I'd imagine the extra bike storage will be very handy indeed.

Very unlikely. I assume that they will be cleared though for the route- the Bi-Mode FLIRT regional units will be running into the airport from the north and there's no structures other than OHLE on the remaining side of the junction triangle.

For ten car (two unit) Aventra use on the WAML, is there any news on platform extension? If nothing is done at Shelford (Down) or Elsenham (both directions), then trains using SDO will be stopped with the rear carriages overhanging the level crossing

 

[Alfie1014]

Stansted requires 8/10 units to operate a 15 minute frequency.

Norwich requires 9/10 units to operate a half hourly frequency (based on slightly accelerated timings & slightly shorter turnaround times to today, fast trains only).

Stansted currently requires 9/10, journey time is around 50 mins (mostly slightly longer in the down direction, slightly shorter in the up). Turnrounds are around 15mins at the airport and 20 mins in Liverpool Street, 50+50+15+20 = 135 mins. 2 1/4 hours for each cycle. Whilst I know there are aspirations for a 45 min journey time, the single line section and other timetable constraints will probably limit its achievement until Lea Valley four tracking, plus I cant see any stops being dropped especially in the peaks when you'll want much of those 12 cars of capacity for commuters.

The tight diagramming of both fleets will I'm sure lead to substitutions by Aventras at times, there's been two fatalities this week on the GE, they sadly tend to take the train out for 24 hours or so, as can other faults. At least with the current EMU fleet you can possibly drop a single faulty unit out and avoid cancellations which with the long trains wont be an option.

 

[Rick1984]

It would be nice in the future if more Intercity FLIRT's could be built so all Norwich to London trains were operated by them. May be wishful thinking.

The third service being operated by an Aventra means that the third service is pointless for most Norwich travelers as they'll have to wait 15 minutes for a reasonably comfortable FLIRT or be subjected to an uncomfortable, cramped Adventra for over two hours stopping at every station

 

[eastdyke]

It would be nice in the future if more Intercity FLIRT's could be built so all Norwich to London trains were operated by them. May be wishful thinking.

The third service being operated by an Aventra means that the third service is pointless for most Norwich travelers as they'll have to wait 15 minutes for a reasonably comfortable FLIRT or be subjected to an uncomfortable, cramped Adventra for over two hours stopping at every station

You are assuming that all Norwich travellers want London which is of course not true.

Further, not all the Flirts will stop at Diss&Stowmarket, and quite possibly Manningtree. We will need to wait and see on that!

 

[Wivenswold]

You are assuming that all Norwich travellers want London which is of course not true.

Further, not all the Flirts will stop at Diss&Stowmarket, and quite possibly Manningtree. We will need to wait and see on that!

That's what I was thinking.

The 3rd train will almost certainly be a stopper probably with a chance to change at Colchester for a non-stop Flirt to London.

I'd think that most passengers north of Ipswich will get a choice of seat on a 10 car Aventra anyway, I think they'll be pleasant enough on most journeys, it's only Chelmsford to Liverpool Street that's usually cramped.

 

[eastdyke]

With the doors centrally positioned on the Flirts will there be any issue with the platform interface where the platform is on the outside of a curve?

EG at Marks Tey (Sudbury) platform 3? I seem to remember that 150's were ultimately not used on the Sudburys.

Found the reference now on railsigns.uk:
http://www.railsigns.uk/sect21page3/sect21page3.html

Is that the tightest platform edge radius that the Flirts will encounter on GA?

This is what Merseyrail have said about the train/platform interface in relation to their Flirts:

Taken from an article in RTM (Rail Technology Magazine) dated 26th May 2017
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-rail-fleet-a-platform-for-future-innovations

A particular characteristic that is going to set the new Merseyrail fleet apart, according to Powell, is that the new Stadler doorways drop the floor to 960mm, “which interfaces really well with a British platform which is meant to be at 915mm”.

“One of the things we are doing is working with Network Rail in getting the relationship between the track and the platform to match Network Rail standard,” he said. “At the moment, it is quite variable across the network, as is the case across almost all of the country.

“We are going to move the track and, in some cases, move the platforms so that we have that relationship, and we have a train that comes in with a slightly higher floor and a sliding step that comes out from underneath the floor of the train and always stops 35mm away from the edge of the platform. That is going to revolutionise the accessibility of the network.

My bold, I have not seen anything similar from GA, have I missed it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shame it's 960 and not 915 - that means no wheel-on of wheelchairs?

 

[dp21]

This is what Merseyrail have said about the train/platform interface in relation to their Flirts:

Taken from an article in RTM (Rail Technology Magazine) dated 26th May 2017
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-rail-fleet-a-platform-for-future-innovations



My bold, I have not seen anything similar from GA, have I missed it?

I know that Merseyrail have developed their own loading gauge with NR and this has contributed to them being able to put those "toblerone" appendiges on the side of their trains (to reduce the gap for people to fall through). NR are therefore doing work to ensure the whole Merseyrail network meets this standard.

GA, however, are working to a more conventional gauge and I don't believe there are any plans for extensive works to change this.

I may well be wrong!

I believe the majority of work being undertaken is looking at platform extensions (on the WA), enabling works for the Brantham depot, Romford stabling and improving the power supply. I'm back in mix now having been out of the loop for a while so I'll see what I can find out.

TL;DR no plans for gauge works as per Merseyrail.

 

[dk1]

I believe the majority of work being undertaken is looking at platform extensions (on the WA), enabling works for the Brantham depot, Romford stabling and improving the power supply. I'm back in mix now having been out of the loop for a while so I'll see what I can find out.

Are there still plans for Romford stabling? Not sure where it will go now.

 

[LAX54]

Are there still plans for Romford stabling? Not sure where it will go now.

Knock the ROC down

 

[dk1]

Knock the ROC down

For all the signalling use it is at the moment you might as well. What a very very expensive office block for control it is. Nowhere left for sidings that I can see.

 

[dp21]

Are there still plans for Romford stabling? Not sure where it will go now.

I was informed that it would be built on the site where the yellow plant stabling is at present and that would be relocated as part of the works.

This was when the bid was originally published so it may have changed by now.

 

[dk1]

I was informed that it would be built on the site where the yellow plant stabling is at present and that would be relocated as part of the works.

This was when the bid was originally published so it may have changed by now.

Ah, I think those plans have long been ditched. Nothing planned here now.

 

[HainultLoop]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but The Railway Magazine have something in month's issue on construction of the FLIRTS starting this summer, with the first trains ready for testing in Spring 2018. It also reports that two pre-series trains will be completed in parallel for "dynamic testing" at the Velim Test Track.

 

[dk1]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but The Railway Magazine have something in month's issue on construction of the FLIRTS starting this summer, with the first trains ready for testing in Spring 2018. It also reports that two pre-series trains will be completed in parallel for "dynamic testing" at the Velim Test Track.

According to MR magazine the first will be a 4-car bi-mode in April 2019 with ALL units coming in quick succession with a full fleet by December.

 

[321over360]

I just hope the Norwich FLIRTs have a better provision of toilets onboard than the terrible decimation Greater Anglia have done to the MK3s toilets in the refurbishment as there are always queues for them given so many were got rid of.

Would be nice if there is a 3rd Norwich service which stops, then all FLIRT services will loose the Chelmsford stop, in theory they could also loose the Manningtree stop and have the FLIRTs going straight through, this would be mitigated by the stopper and also extending the Harwich Town - Manningtree service down to Colchester. I do hope Abellio havent made another muck up of this fleet replacement. i despair of their refurbishments they have done to the current fleet, it looks so characterless, the MK3s used to feel so much cosier than they do now, same with 321s they have refreshed, I mean look at the MK3s floors, tatty within weeks of coming back from the workshop. I feel we are keeping a raw deal with Abellio still running the franchise and the DFT bought their lies

 

[samuelmorris]

As far as I know since the layout of the Stadler units still isn't published, we don't know how many toilets will be fitted on the IC units.

As for the third Norwich service - timetable details are still a while away yet, but I highly doubt the third service will result in the removal of a Chelmsford stop - it's one of the most heavily used on the route. I didn't get a firm answer from the guy from Abellio at our meeting on whether the third Norwich was an extension of the current xx02 Ipswich service or an additional, but he seemed to think it was the latter.

Assuming the latter is the case, I would hazard a guess at the off-peak calling pattern looking something like:


xx00 Norwich [745/0: Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Diss, Norwich
xx02 Ipswich [1x 720/5]: Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Hatfield Peverel, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich
xx30 Norwich [745/0]: Stratford, Chelmsford, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket, Diss, Norwich
xx32 Norwich [2x 720/5]: Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Witham, Marks Tey, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket, Diss, Norwich

 

[dk1]

As far as I know since the layout of the Stadler units still isn't published, we don't know how many toilets will be fitted on the IC units.

As for the third Norwich service - timetable details are still a while away yet, but I highly doubt the third service will result in the removal of a Chelmsford stop - it's one of the most heavily used on the route. I didn't get a firm answer from the guy from Abellio at our meeting on whether the third Norwich was an extension of the current xx02 Ipswich service or an additional, but he seemed to think it was the latter.

Assuming the latter is the case, I would hazard a guess at the off-peak calling pattern looking something like:


xx00 Norwich [745/0: Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Diss, Norwich
xx02 Ipswich [1x 720/5]: Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Hatfield Peverel, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich
xx30 Norwich [745/0]: Stratford, Chelmsford, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket, Diss, Norwich
xx32 Norwich [2x 720/5]: Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Witham, Marks Tey, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket, Diss, Norwich

I think you are way off the mark with the stopping pattern of the two fast Flirt services to Norwich. You've simply copied the current timetable, but we will have to wait & see.