Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[DasLunatic]

With regards to the proposed third London - Norwich train, would it be possible to have it call at Needham Market too? It is currently the only station on the mainline which is not connected to London, and yet it has a population similar to Hatfield Peverel, which currently sees an hourly service on the Ipswich stopper. With talks of a new/extended service, would this work?

 

[dk1]

With regards to the proposed third London - Norwich train, would it be possible to have it call at Needham Market too? It is currently the only station on the mainline which is not connected to London, and yet it has a population similar to Hatfield Peverel, which currently sees an hourly service on the Ipswich stopper. With talks of a new/extended service, would this work?

Not without major & costly platform extensions. The station now has probably its best ever service & the increase in passenger numbers in the last 10years prove its worth.

 

[Alfie1014]

I just hope the Norwich FLIRTs have a better provision of toilets onboard than the terrible decimation Greater Anglia have done to the MK3s toilets in the refurbishment as there are always queues for them given so many were got rid of.

The number of toilets in the IC sets is 5 as contracted(!) in the Franchise Agreement

toilet provision: the UATs required for PRM TSI compliance and balanced toilet provision for the New Fleet shall be specified with the need to maximise seats. Toilets provision shall be as follows:
(i) the OS5 Fleet will have one (1) UAT and one (1) standard toilet;
(ii) the OS10 Fleet will have one (1) UAT and two (2) standard toilets;
(iii) the IC12 Fleet will have one (1) UAT and four (4) standard toilets;
(iv) the AIR12 Fleet will have one (1) UAT and (4) four standard toilets;
(v) the HYB3 Fleet will have one (1) UAT and one (1) standard toilet; and
(vi) the HYB4 Fleet will have one (1) UAT and one (1) standard toilet;


This seems to confirm the layout published in Modern Railways when the franchise was let last year. Those plans showed 5 toilets, 1 UAT in car 2 (standard class) and two each in cars 5 and 8 again all in standard class. First class passengers in cars 11 and 12 would have to traipse though past the buffet to relieve themselves if the layout hasn't been changed since. A 9 car IEP (around similar length will also have 11 toilets, of which 2 will be UAT (i.e. one in each class).

Interestingly the new Giruno sets being built by Stadler for SBB which have a more than passing resemblence to the GA sets will have 11 toilets in a train 210m long (compared to 240m for the GA sets) and a much lower seating density.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The SBB sets are, as usual for SBB, all-facing seating, which does result in a lower seating density because there's a lot of wasted space.

 

[Rick1984]

I wonder if lack of toilets in 1st class is due to not wanting to use up space in the shorter carriages?

 

[samuelmorris]

I think you are way off the mark with the stopping pattern of the two fast Flirt services to Norwich. You've simply copied the current timetable, but we will have to wait & see.

Indeed I did - because I don't believe we have anything better to go on yet? Really it will depend on how the rest of the timetable gets structure, which until they start doing that next year, we'll have no idea. I do admit I forgot to check the franchise agreement regarding the toilet provision though.

 

[dk1]

Indeed I did - because I don't believe we have anything better to go on yet? Really it will depend on how the rest of the timetable gets structure, which until they start doing that next year, we'll have no idea. I do admit I forgot to check the franchise agreement regarding the toilet provision though.

As a driver who works the Intercity services day in day out I disagree that Chelmsford is one of the most heavily used stations when it comes to the Norwich services. Yes of course it is on the route in general but I've seen more board/alight at Diss than here to be honest. Leave it to the extra all stations & be done with it.

 

[eastdyke]

With regards to the proposed third London - Norwich train, would it be possible to have it call at Needham Market too? It is currently the only station on the mainline which is not connected to London, and yet it has a population similar to Hatfield Peverel, which currently sees an hourly service on the Ipswich stopper. With talks of a new/extended service, would this work?

Back in the day Needham Market did have one Norwich-London stopper each weekday.
The up train was mainly for mail and departed around 9pm. With around 30 minutes dwell at Ipswich it got to London just after midnight!
The down train mainly for mail and newspapers left London at 4.30am and arrived at Needham Market around 7am before continuing to Norwich.

If there is a will I see no reason why Needham Market should not get 1 or 2 am trains to London being formed of a Flirt bi-mode portion from Bury St Edmunds (or Cambridge) to join with the already committed Flirt bi-mode service from Lowestoft via the East Suffolk at Ipswich.

It wouldn't need an extra path as it would replace an existing Bury-Ipswich service already in the timetable. It would also avoid the Lowestoft service taking up a path to London in very short form.

No platform extensions required, just a very few minutes platform space at Ipswich.

 

[Class 170101]

Needham Market has had London trains more recently than that

05:47 Bury St Edmunds to Liverpool Street
20:00 Liverpool Street to Great Yarmouth / Bury St Edmunds split at Ipswich.
in Anglia days

In NX Days I think you will find the 16:32 Liverpool Street to Peterborough via Ipswich called there

All Class 170 stock.

 

[samuelmorris]

As a driver who works the Intercity services day in day out I disagree that Chelmsford is one of the most heavily used stations when it comes to the Norwich services. Yes of course it is on the route in general but I've seen more board/alight at Diss than here to be honest. Leave it to the extra all stations & be done with it.

Of course, but aside from the passengers North of Ipswich that stand to benefit, this is (presumably) an additional service down the mainline. Of course the xx00 fast service at its equivalent time is likely to be fast until Colchester, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't retain the Chelmsford stop in the other fast service to offer a frequency improvement to the station - it's less about passengers heading beyond Ipswich from Chelmsford as it is increasing the tph between Chelmsford and London, especially on a service offering First Class when none of the regular services will.

 

[Alfie1014]

I see from this month's Modern Railways that the design of the Stadler IC sets has been tweeked to move one toilet into the First Class area, (which makes sense) and that a mock up of an Aventra should be unveiled 'later this summer'.

 

[samuelmorris]

The 'later this Summer' timeframe tallies with what we heard. As of yet, we have still not had a response to our queries directed to Abellio.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 'later this Summer' timeframe tallies with what we heard. As of yet, we have still not had a response to our queries directed to Abellio.

Same here, been fobbed off a few more times, to be fair I think some people who I have been in contact with generally want to get the answers but the top are simply not disclosing them.

 

[D365]

Same here, been fobbed off a few more times, to be fair I think some people who I have been in contact with generally want to get the answers but the top are simply not disclosing them.

Out of interest, will you be looking to enquire about the South Western Aventras as well?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Out of interest, will you be looking to enquire about the South Western Aventras as well?

I don't have any questions about any Aventras and I have never used the services that the South West Aventras will run on - so no.

 

[D365]

I don't have any questions about any Aventras...

What, aside from all this about the seats?

 

[samuelmorris]

Same here, been fobbed off a few more times, to be fair I think some people who I have been in contact with generally want to get the answers but the top are simply not disclosing them.

I also get that feeling. Frustrating but hopefully the release of the second mock-up might push things along a bit, even if it's Bombardier providing answers rather than Abellio.

What, aside from all this about the seats?

I get the feeling that most of that was directed at the Stadler units anyway as they are the units for which we did not yet receive a detailed layout diagram of the proposed interior. There would have been questions about the Aventras, but most of them have already been answered.

 

[AS43]

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/news-articles/consultation-feedback-will-help-shape-regions-new-trains-passenger

Visitors to the Stadler mock-up liked the seating layout, plug points and USB ports, large windows, easier access onto and through the train, new customer information systems, and the separate dedicated areas for wheelchair users and bicycles.

They have also raised constructive suggestions about some aspects of the seating, signage and labelling and marking out of the cycle area.

The online public consultation about both types of new train, including the Bombardier-built trains which will operate on suburban and some main line routes, has generated comments about seating design, provision of seat backs tables, seat alignment to windows and signage around areas with tip-up seats or cycle areas, all of which will be fed back and help to shape the final design.

Mike Kean, Franchise and Programmes Director, Greater Anglia, said: “Our priority for the new trains was to involve the public and stakeholders fully in the design process and we are pleased that this extensive consultation process has resulted in so much useful feedback which will inform and shape the final design.

I'm sure that forum contributors will be pleased that seating comments have been fed back to Stadler and Bombardier (though whether it changes anything is another thing!)...

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm sure that forum contributors will be pleased that seating comments have been fed back to Stadler and Bombardier (though whether it changes anything is another thing!)...

By opening up a consultation without airline seats that are representative of what will be in the final product, they can minimise any negative comments because people will not see just how cramped these seats will be.

This was a box ticking exercise by showing a passengers a layout which is not going to be representative of a real seat pitch for airline seats allowing Abellio to use the excuse of "it wasn't brought up in the consultation where we only had a very positive reaction" further down the line.

To quote GA

Visitors to the Stadler mock-up liked the seating layout, plug points and USB ports, large windows, easier access onto and through the train, new customer information systems, and the separate dedicated areas for wheelchair users and bicycles.

What astonished me the most about that passengers even claimed to like things which were either not there and could not be sampled or not even demonstrated in the mock-up, anybody would think it was a PR exercise rather than consultation.....oh wait!!!

When the inevitable happens and the layout gets rolled out and the trains are delivered and the negative opinions come, what will happen is that Abellio will point back to their PR exerc...sorry consultation and claim the passengers voted for this so there is nothing that can be done.

Is Mike Kean the project manager? Isn't his background in bid directing rather than operational and new trains planning? Surely for a project this size they need someone at the top with engineering experience, like First have gone with SWR?

 

[jamesontheroad]

Richard Clinnick reports today in Rail that designs have been finalised for the Stadler units. There will be no more substantive changes before manufacturing begins.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Indeed, needless to say they didn't answer the questions before closing the design, to myself, several others or user groups, which shouldn't surprise really but I feel for the staff on the front end who are going to get the jip from passengers when the inadequacies of the stock is revealed because they are more interested in PR than anything else.

It's completely unfair that the front line staff, be that in customer services, at stations or on trains should have to take the flack for what is about to hit when the Flirts are rolled out, especially because they have really wanted to provide answers to questions that it seems management simply don't want to answer.

 

[Wivenswold]

The reaction of most to the Stadlers will be "Hmmm, shiny new train". A few will be angered or disorientated by the loss of "their seat" as happens when there are rolling stock changes and a few people will have a few tries of finding their new favourite spot.

That's what'll "hit" when the Stadlers enter service. Your constant threats of Armageddon simply due to seat design is a minority view. Just thought you'd best know, a friendly tap on the shoulder, if you like.

 

[samuelmorris]

The 'shiny new train' effect gets me on the Class 700s, which has got to be the most poorly specified train seat in recent history. How bad would these units honestly be?

 

[F Great Eastern]

The reaction of most to the Stadlers will be "Hmmm, shiny new train". A few will be angered or disorientated by the loss of "their seat" as happens when there are rolling stock changes and a few people will have a few tries of finding their new favourite spot.

That's what'll "hit" when the Stadlers enter service. Your constant threats of Armageddon simply due to seat design is a minority view. Just thought you'd best know, a friendly tap on the shoulder, if you like.

We'll see - but at the end of the day
- Abellio said they would get answers before the mocks up were made - they didn't
- Abellio said they would ensure the mock up shows what we asked - it didn't
- They said they would get the answers before the end of the consultation they didn't

People don't hide things or avoid answering questions unless they are hiding something that they don't want people to know. The trouble is this whole project is too much of a vanity exercise and the PR of the whole thing has been first and foremost from day one.

 

[306024]

Indeed, needless to say they didn't answer the questions before closing the design, to myself, several others or user groups, which shouldn't surprise really but I feel for the staff on the front end who are going to get the jip from passengers when the inadequacies of the stock is revealed because they are more interested in PR than anything else.

It's completely unfair that the front line staff, be that in customer services, at stations or on trains should have to take the flack for what is about to hit when the Flirts are rolled out, especially because they have really wanted to provide answers to questions that it seems management simply don't want to answer.

Jip and flack? Sounds like new brands of household cleaner.

The new trains will be what they are. They won't be as good as a class 309, nothing since has been, but life still goes on.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 'shiny new train' effect gets me on the Class 700s, which has got to be the most poorly specified train seat in recent history. How bad would these units honestly be?

My issue is not the seat itself per se, more the fact that the seat being designed to hold the knees in a small little niche rather than having proper, full width of the seat in front leg-room.

They did not show any proper airline seats with the actual space they will have in the mock-up in the Norwich to London Format. they only showed ones against walls, dividers and wheelchair and accessible areas, etc, the vast majority of airline seats in carriages are going to be back to back airlines, and that is where they are going to squash people in.

They said they would put example of back to back airline seats as would be standard in the mock-up but it was noticeable by it's absence

 

[Wivenswold]

We'll see - but at the end of the day
- Abellio said they would get answers before the mocks up were made - they didn't
- Abellio said they would ensure the mock up shows what we asked - it didn't
- They said they would get the answers before the end of the consultation they didn't

People don't hide things or avoid answering questions unless they are hiding something that they don't want people to know. The trouble is this whole project is too much of a vanity exercise and the PR of the whole thing has been first and foremost from day one.

This seems to be a surprise to you. I assume you don't follow politics then.

 

[Foggycorner]

there is a simple solution to the 'hard seat' problem carry a blow up cushion to sit on

 

[306024]

there is a simple solution to the 'hard seat' problem carry a blow up cushion to sit on

A joke one that blows a raspberry when you sit on it, as a message to the management perhaps?

All this debate about seats misses the point that at peak times any sort of seat is a bonus on the Norwich trains. The standard class in the MkIII stock is hardly luxurious, you feel quite crammed in there as well.

Hopefully the Bombardier stock will be better so some Ipswich / Manningtree / Colchester commuters will chose those and balance out the loadings better.

 

[Wivenswold]

One person would complain until they're blue in the face about the quality of seating, another would spot an opportunity to get rich and market commuter cushions.

Personally I'm working on turning a sleeping bag into my own first class, quiet zone with in-built seat cushion. Aim high, I say.