Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[jopsuk]

That was the "subtle" approach I was thinking of!

 

[colchesterken]

They could fuel the Sudbury train at Marks Tey, tanker in the car park and a pipe into the unit
Or how about a tanker in the engineers siding, the train could run in there between turns
OR better still borrow something from the EARM to cover while it goes to Colchester or where ever
for juice,

 

[F Great Eastern]

Do we know what services are going to be 5 car and what 10 car after the 321s/360s get replaced on the GE side? There was a suggestion by a staff member today who was speaking to another that pretty much all branch lines out of Colchester are going to be 5 cars at the weekend?

Do we know how much a five car will have for capacity compared to an 8 car 360 for instance? In the last week I've been working near Stratford and also had to work today and I've been on FOUR 8 car trains outside peak in the last week that were full and standing the whole way through the train and even the 9:05 from Clacton this morning was jam packed by Witham throughout with many standing in each carriage and not a hope of a seat even after I swapped units and walked through both!

 

[Wivenswold]

According to the Franchise Agreement, seats per unit: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9202/east-anglia-2016-franchise-agreement.pdf
Class 321/3 = 292
Class 321/4 = 283
Class 321 = 265
Class 360 = 264
Class 720 (5 car) = 544
Class 720 (10 car) = 1145

Until we know what the final approved design for the Aventras is, those last two figures are subject to change.

 

[jopsuk]

but the Aventra numbers are really on liable to small adjustment, not massive changes, so that means a 5-car (120m) Class 720 will probably have more seats than 2x4 car (160m) Class 360.

Cosy.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

but the Aventra numbers are really on liable to small adjustment, not massive changes, so that means a 5-car (120m) Class 720 will probably have more seats than 2x4 car (160m) Class 360.

Cosy.

It is if you look at the figures above and do the maths!

528 Seats in an 8x360
544 seats in a 5x 720

Only problem is where the standing passengers will go.

 

[Wivenswold]

Don't forget that a 5 car 720 is equivalent in length to a 6 cars of 321/360. So you've got seats where the one cab and 2 vestibules would have been.

This won't be a problem most of the time as the Stadlers are also providing a capacity increase along the GEML. But I agree that some off-peaks during the week and on Saturdays could be a little cosy as 5 cars.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So essentially going to gain about 16 seats and lose approx 100 standing I would say then? That's going to be fun on trains like I've been on last week and going to cause more overcrowding based on current timetable.

They might be boxing themselves it later on if stations cannot take ten cars but five are not enough with the reduction of standing capacity. Two of the emus I've been on its been physically impossible to get any more people on in carriages I have been in.

With that in mild there is no way first class should be on these new suburban units unless they are declassified when the train is busy.

 

[Wivenswold]

So essentially going to gain about 16 seats and lose approx 100 standing I would say then? That's going to be fun on trains like I've been on last week and going to cause more overcrowding based on current timetable.

They might be boxing themselves it later on if stations cannot take ten cars but five are not enough with the reduction of standing capacity. Two of the emus I've been on its been physically impossible to get any more people on in carriages I have been in.

With that in mild there is no way first class should be on these new suburban units unless they are declassified when the train is busy.

What we should remember is that the service is being completely recast. With an additional Norwich train per hour (which is rumoured to be a mixture of 10 car Aventras and Stadlers of all types) there will be a capacity increase at the likes of Colchester, Chelmsford and Stratford off peak. Hertford and Southend Vic lines also get an additional off-peak service. While the prospect of 5 car 720's on the Electric suburban routes at busy times of the year does concern me, and it's something to keep an eye on, if they're clever this will be a chance to provide a more balanced service which spreads current off-peak loadings.

Declassification is a possibility but as I've said before, the most recent layout plan I've seen for the 720's had an area of 2+2 seating behind the bulkhead at each end of the unit which was listed as Standard Class, so providing a small area of 1st class seating would not appear to change the unit's capacity, even better if it can be declassified for the Saturday crush.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is seat testing going on at Ipswich today if anyone is interested at least this morning. Typically it was the one day I got stuck in traffic and had to run for train so didn't get chance myself!

Think there might be a roadshow going on.

 

[Alfie1014]

There is seat testing going on at Ipswich today if anyone is interested at least this morning. Typically it was the one day I got stuck in traffic and had to run for train so didn't get chance myself!

Think there might be a roadshow going on.

Yep this from the GA website

* Tuesday 14 November, Ipswich, 6.45 to 11.15
• Friday 17 November, Norwich, 6.45 to 11.15
• Thursday 23 November, Cambridge, 6.45 to 11.15
• Friday 1 December, Broxbourne, 6.45 to 11.15
• Friday 8 December, Liverpool Street, 6.45 to 11.15
• Friday 15 December, Southend Victoria, 6.45 to 11.15
• Tuesday 19 December, Chelmsford, 9.00 to 13.00
• Thursday 21 December, Colchester, 6.45 to 11.15

 

[class387]

There is seat testing going on at Ipswich today if anyone is interested at least this morning. Typically it was the one day I got stuck in traffic and had to run for train so didn't get chance myself!

Think there might be a roadshow going on.

Any pictures and feedback from those who got to go?

 

[F Great Eastern]

It was literally just a first class seat and a standard class seat in the booking hall with a few PR people around bigging up their new trains.

I would really have loved to sample it and get some answers about the pitch but got stuck in traffic and had to run for my train

 

[Wivenswold]

I may have missed a trick but Stadler or Aventra seats. If they were both from the latter then we may have a development here.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I may have missed a trick but Stadler or Aventra seats. If they were both from the latter then we may have a development here.

Stadler are gonna have their work cut out replacing the 379 and 90+Mk3 Seats, both of which are very popular!

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd like to try one as they're an interesting departure from the norm, but I'm not optimistic the 745s will be seen as much of an upgrade for users of either route really, other than that they won't be falling to bits like the Mk3s and may offer capacity benefits to peak services and StanEx users, being fixed formation.
We'll see though. I'll try and make it down to the Liverpool Street test in the morning session and see what's what.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd like to try one as they're an interesting departure from the norm, but I'm not optimistic the 745s will be seen as much of an upgrade for users of either route really, other than that they won't be falling to bits like the Mk3s and may offer capacity benefits to peak services and StanEx users, being fixed formation.
We'll see though. I'll try and make it down to the Liverpool Street test in the morning session and see what's what.

Ok, good idea! Photos would be appreciated if you could please maybe try and upload them!

Do we know for sure the new trains are what the seats are for though? They might be for a possible 153/156/170/360 etc refurbishment? Probably not though, having said that.

 

[samuelmorris]

Nah, no way - it's definitely being spun as a PR event about the new trains. I could try grabbing a photo but that won't help with the VR experience! Realistically the mockups you've seen discussed already probably give you all you need to know in terms of appearance. It's how the seat actually feels to sit in that I'm curious about.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nah, no way - it's definitely being spun as a PR event about the new trains. I could try grabbing a photo but that won't help with the VR experience! Realistically the mockups you've seen discussed already probably give you all you need to know in terms of appearance. It's how the seat actually feels to sit in that I'm curious about.

Yes, but I can usually make a very accurate guess how the seat will feel just by looking at it!

 

[Wivenswold]

I've been gauging the opinion of the commuters in my office who travel in from Norfolk to London. Not a scientific investigation by any means but the results are;
1) They are looking forward to newer trains with improved facilities such as better wifi, heating and fewer lighting failures etc. (tick)
2) If they can get a seat, it's comfortable and has sufficient legroom, they'll be happy. (should be a "tick" given the capacity increase and none of the dreaded 3+2 seating on the Stadlers)
3) They hope the new trains will improve reliability. (Probably a "tick" if they settle down quickly)

I think it's fair to say that they have no particular attachment to the type of train, so long as it works and is comfortable from their perspective.

I would also disagree that you can look at a seat and work out how comfy it is. The transverse seats on the 345 didn't look promising until I sat on one and found it was superb for my posture.

 

[class387]

Stadler are gonna have their work cut out replacing the 379 and 90+Mk3 Seats, both of which are very popular!

Agreed, but if you have been on any Stadler trains in Europe you will know how good they are.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agreed, but if you have been on any Stadler trains in Europe you will know how good they are.

I’ve been on the Zurich S-Bahn and the Lucerne-Interlaken Express, I think they were stadler and yes, they were good.

 

[Wivenswold]

Seconded, my one trip on a Stadler 3 in the Netherlands was extremely impressive.

 

[samuelmorris]

Promising stuff, although on the reliability point I'd be surprised if the number of train faults goes anything but up until 2021, judging from the performance of other newly introduced fleets. The fact that the 707s are as bad as the 700s suggests that just because a new generation has already been operational for a year (345 in this case and to an extent 710) doesn't necessarily mean the next iteration will be trouble free. I certainly don't want that to be the case but I rather suspect it might be, same goes for the 745/755 which is even less proven.

 

[chubs]

Stadler are gonna have their work cut out replacing the 379 and 90+Mk3 Seats, both of which are very popular!

Those Mk3 seats are awful if you do the full 1:50 journey. So uncomfortable.

 

[Trainfan344]

Those Mk3 seats are awful if you do the full 1:50 journey. So uncomfortable.

DoneNorwich to Liverpool Street and back a few times and not felt uncomfortable!

 

[Bletchleyite]

DoneNorwich to Liverpool Street and back a few times and not felt uncomfortable!

I think the comfort of IC70 seats depends largely on how big you are. And people have got rather bigger since the 1970s.

The fundamental problem with them is the fixed armrests. The Wessie had as built a not dissimilar seat but with liftable armrests and that made all the difference - shame this was not the standard Mk3 seat. (Indeed, shame the Mk3s didn't have all the Wessie interior features, they truly were the Mk3 with most of the issues solved).

 

[mushroomchow]

According to the Franchise Agreement, seats per unit: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/609202/east-anglia-2016-franchise-agreement.pdf
Class 321/3 = 292
Class 321/4 = 283
Class 321 = 265
Class 360 = 264
Class 720 (5 car) = 544
Class 720 (10 car) = 1145

Until we know what the final approved design for the Aventras is, those last two figures are subject to change.

I'm keen to know if the seat layout in the GA Aventras ends up being as god-awful as it seemed in the mock-ups seen here.

I presume there's a while to wait yet before we see one with a kitted-out interior, but that long row of flip-down seats in a narrow vestibule, 3+2 seating and poor window alignment makes it look like an appalling lack of awareness of passenger comfort and the practicalities of alighting and disembarking has been evident in whatever boardroom designed them. But to reduce the number of seats crammed in would amount to sacrilege, so you just know it will be pretty close to the final design.

If other TOCs follow suit, "Aventra-isation" could be the new "Voyager-isation".

 

[F Great Eastern]

I may have missed a trick but Stadler or Aventra seats. If they were both from the latter then we may have a development here.

Pretty sure they were for at least the Stadler, but I only got a very quick glimpse when running for my train.

Stadler are gonna have their work cut out replacing the 379 and 90+Mk3 Seats, both of which are very popular!

I like what Abellio did to the MK3s but I don't like what is a very uncomfortable seat for someone who is tall, The 321s suffer from being far too angular seat wise and the 379s are pretty good and I'm also good with the 360s which have better support for someone tall, none are as good as a FGW MK3 however, which has perfect combo of excellent legroom, lumber support, excellent head-rests and good angular design.

I've been gauging the opinion of the commuters in my office who travel in from Norfolk to London. Not a scientific investigation by any means but the results are;
2) If they can get a seat, it's comfortable and has sufficient legroom, they'll be happy. (should be a "tick" given the capacity increase and none of the dreaded 3+2 seating on the Stadlers)
3) They hope the new trains will improve reliability. (Probably a "tick" if they settle down quickly)

I think it's fair to say that they have no particular attachment to the type of train, so long as it works and is comfortable from their perspective.

As someone who is living close to the Suffolk/Essex border I would go along with the same, I'd be taking a mix of commuter services and intercity myself and the odd local out of Ipswich, and whilst I'm sad to see the 360s go because honestly they transformed travel from what went before them, if the new trains do what the 360s do with the addition of sockets and Wifi without downgrading on comfort or reliability I'll be happy. As indicated before the MK3s fall down on seat comfort for me so will miss them less.

Agreed, but if you have been on any Stadler trains in Europe you will know how good they are.

I've been on a fair few but the difference with this order is that Stadler are using a version modified from the core one to be UK specific and they're also using a different type of seating, one which is designed for very high density, and a different layout to what they've used within Europe, so that's my concern

 

[Wivenswold]

To be fair to GA or any other company that runs the GEML, the Essex area service is not about comfort and ambiance, it's about moving millions of commuters from ever expanding towns into the city as quickly as possible within the constraints of a line that's already at capacity. The layout may hurt your eyes but to the thousands of commuters joining the trains on the edges of London, even a tip-up seat will be an improvement to standing both ways at a cost of £3k per year.

Commuters will find their favoured spot on these trains in time. For example I deliberately sit at a "window seat" with no view on the way home as it's more comfortable to fall asleep there. My wife is looking forward to tucking into the 3 across airline seats, so she can sleep, charge her phone and not have her head knocked by passing passengers at each station. The rather hard sideways seats in the old parcels section of the Class 321s would be heavily criticized if it was a new train, but it's popular with groups of workmen as they can sit with their toolbags in sight and chat to their mates across gangway.