Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[samuelmorris]

Sorry to just suddenly change the subject but I've just noticed that on the new Class 720s, Greater Anglia have put seats in the doorways. The seats are in 2+1 config so 6 seats per doorway. 2 doors per coach and 5 coaches. So 10 doors overall multiplied by 6 means that 60 of the seats are just fold-up doorway blocking seats.
View attachment 69955

Correct, tip-up seats in the vestibules were part of getting the seat quota up high enough to satisfy bid commitments. I wonder how long they'll last...

 

[47421]

I'm not sure why we are hearing so much from the Gainsborough commuter brigade. The rest of the Anglian local routes are suffering too. It's only a handful of trains on this route that require more than 1 coach so from an operational point of view it's a sensible move. Everyone is in it together.

Yes get back in your place, like it or lump it you annoying people.

Annual season from Sudbury to Liv St £5272.

 

[dk1]

Yes get back in your place, like it or lump it you annoying people.

Annual season from Sudbury to Liv St £5272.

All the local routes are in the same boat right now. Compare the journey time on an overcrowded single 153 from Sudbury to Mark's Tey with Ipswich to Cambridge, Peterborough or Lowestoft or Norwich to Cambridge or Sheringham. Until more 755s become available difficult and unpopular decisions have to be made.

 

[Railperf]

How many units are GA short now?

 

[Railperf]

So as it stands today- is this a fair assessment if what is happening?
Class 90 loco hauled sets - plenty of short forms due to a backlog of exams not carried out as they were supposed to have had 745's in service.
Class 170s 6 units out of how many now sent to TFW. How many more to go and when? And this is due to fewer 755/4s and 3s being in service.
So 156s being used on the Peterborough service now instead.
On the least used branch lines - 153s being deployed in place of 156s which have been redeployed to replace the 170s and due to a lack of 755/3s.
But even if the 755/3s were available, are there enough trained drivers and conductors. I don't think all Norwich drivers are trained yet. And how many have Ipswich trained up? You need spare units to do the training and these are at a premium as it is.

 

[samuelmorris]

There were 12 170s, so half of them are left.

 

[LowLevel]

All the local routes are in the same boat right now. Compare the journey time on an overcrowded single 153 from Sudbury to Mark's Tey with Ipswich to Cambridge, Peterborough or Lowestoft or Norwich to Cambridge or Sheringham. Until more 755s become available difficult and unpopular decisions have to be made.

To be fair as staff we have to remember that passengers won't see it as being in it together. They're paying Greater Anglia to provide a train service to them and failing to receive it with unfortunate regularity. 'You'll be late for work and late home again for many months, but it'll be great in 6 months' isn't a great state of affairs and they won't get it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So as it stands today- is this a fair assessment if what is happening?
Class 90 loco hauled sets - plenty of short forms due to a backlog of exams not carried out as they were supposed to have had 745's in service.

Greater Anglia staff have been saying that the short forms on the class 90 hauled sets are no longer occuring and all services are operating with the planned number of carriages, which is backed up by JourneyCheck believe it or not!

They've done something very cynical to keep the numbers down in the last few days, can anyone guess what it is?

 

[samuelmorris]

Greater Anglia staff have been saying that the short forms on the class 90 hauled sets are no longer occuring and all services are operating with the planned number of carriages, which is backed up by JourneyCheck believe it or not!

They've done something very cynical to keep the numbers down in the last few days, can anyone guess what it is?

Permanently specifying services as 8 coaches rather than 9?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Permanently specifying services as 8 coaches rather than 9?

Yes and not just over the MK3 fleet either. There's been EMU services that have lost a whole unit which are not showing up as short forms as well. I suspect there might be DMUs as well where similar is happening but I haven't been on the local network to know for sure.

The other thing I've noticed is 'long forms' services which have had their unit allocation reduced by 4 cars, then stated on JourneyCheck that they have had 4 cars more instead, which is the actual number it had before they recently changed.

Clearly the huge numbers on JourneyCheck were not portraying a good image of the company so something had to be done. The best thing about JourneyCheck is that it is transparent with such things but that clearly is something that is a bad thing to an operator who is short forming 3 figures of trains every day.

 

[dk1]

There were 12 170s, so half of them are left.

I thought only three had actually gone.

 

[samuelmorris]

I thought only three had actually gone.

No idea how many have actually gone, was just responding to a comment saying six had transferred. If that's not the case, apologies, but it wasn't me that posted that information!

 

[dk1]

No idea how many have actually gone, was just responding to a comment saying six had transferred. If that's not the case, apologies, but it wasn't me that posted that information!

No worries, sorry. We could do with all the units we can get our hands on at the moment & I will miss driving the 170s.

 

[86246]

No worries, sorry. We could do with all the units we can get our hands on at the moment & I will miss driving the 170s.

I’ll miss travelling on them. Still remember my first trip on one when new in 1999 (is it really that long ago ?). Fortunately 317s and 322s could be used for their slightly delayed arrival into service.

Are two of the 170s still stabled at Norwich all cleaned up and ready to go ?

 

[dk1]

I’ll miss travelling on them. Still remember my first trip on one when new in 1999 (is it really that long ago ?). Fortunately 317s and 322s could be used for their slightly delayed arrival into service.

Are two of the 170s still stabled at Norwich all cleaned up and ready to go ?

They where on Tuesday. During the late 90s the 08:00 ex-Liv St & 13:00 return (SX) ran to/from Yarmouth. I recall Anglia where keen to get this working over to 170s asap to remove the costly drag.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes and not just over the MK3 fleet either. There's been EMU services that have lost a whole unit which are not showing up as short forms as well. I suspect there might be DMUs as well where similar is happening but I haven't been on the local network to know for sure.

The other thing I've noticed is 'long forms' services which have had their unit allocation reduced by 4 cars, then stated on JourneyCheck that they have had 4 cars more instead, which is the actual number it had before they recently changed.

Clearly the huge numbers on JourneyCheck were not portraying a good image of the company so something had to be done. The best thing about JourneyCheck is that it is transparent with such things but that clearly is something that is a bad thing to an operator who is short forming 3 figures of trains every day.

Laughable to see 4 car EMU's going around on West Anglia yesterday and Greater Anglia denying that they were short forms despite the fact that they were booked for 8 cars earlier in the week.

This kind of practice is something that should not be tolerated and I would consider it gaming the statistics - there are 6 services showing on JourneyCheck as short formed at the moment, there's way way way more than that if we were basing short forms on Monday's regular allocations.

Over the last week or so it's continued to decline though, despite the cover-ups. Single car 153s are operating more and more on rural services with higher carriage allocations, West Anglia peak services as 4 car have become a thing and today they're so short of bins that one Norwich to London diagram is being operated as a 4 car train.

It's time to cry halt to this and for GA to come out and be open with it's customers.

 

[Rhoobarb]

There's a path in for this afternoon (1/11) which should see 37401 take 8 Mk3s from Crown Point to the MNR for storage.

 

[387star]

The seat covers were only changed after endless pleas from users as the fabric had worn completely away and they were practically bare cushions on some seats. They really were neglected at one point - GA turned it round once they got awarded the longer franchise as they were actually prepared to spend some money, but they're still a bit shabby. The lighting is probably mostly dim because it's full of grime. I'm expecting a full refresh when they go to EMR.

strange how neglected the fleet was especially between around 2008 through to 2014
this wouldn't have happened with south west trains

why was national express allowed to run the trains down to such a shocking state. Hardly any were refurbished at all during their tenure notably the 321s. Not sure why they rebranded from 'one' in 2008 with the parent company highly visible and then barely invested in their fleet. Doesn't show much for national express

now once the mess in this thread is resolved the franchise will finally have one of the best fleets in the country not sure what took so long to raise standards

 

[trebor79]

There's a path in for this afternoon (1/11) which should see 37401 take 8 Mk3s from Crown Point to the MNR for storage.

Ridiculous. They should be having whatever exams or other work is necessary to get them back into service before the 745s arrive.
What's the point in storing the legacy fleet for the remainder of the franchise (which is what I understand is required) if they can't be run anyway because they need overhauls or exams?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Ridiculous. They should be having whatever exams or other work is necessary to get them back into service before the 745s arrive.
What's the point in storing the legacy fleet for the remainder of the franchise (which is what I understand is required) if they can't be run anyway because they need overhauls or exams?

Probably comes down to money, both of paying for work that needs to be done and not wanting to extend the leases.

 

[F Great Eastern]

strange how neglected the fleet was especially between around 2008 through to 2014
this wouldn't have happened with south west trains

why was national express allowed to run the trains down to such a shocking state. Hardly any were refurbished at all during their tenure notably the 321s. Not sure why they rebranded from 'one' in 2008 with the parent company highly visible and then barely invested in their fleet. Doesn't show much for national express

now once the mess in this thread is resolved the franchise will finally have one of the best fleets in the country not sure what took so long to raise standards

Happened from Day 1 of National Express taking over, poor timetables, neglected stations and trains, the fllthy 322s, poor customer service, no investment, bargain basement spending on everything, sponsored announcements over the PA, plans to replace 360s with 321s, the Ipswich departure screens debacle (nothing summed up lack of wanting to spend more than that), lack of cleaning or roofs, terrible liveries, poor reliability, threadbare seats, the list goes on.

However whilst the first tenure of Greater Anglia was a welcome improvement over what went before them, this latest franchise is a marked decline so far that is still ongoing.

I'd rank them in my lifetime of commuting up until the last 18 months
1. First Great Eastern
2. Anglia Railways
3. Greater Anglia (original)
4. Greater Anglia (new)
<big gap>
5. WAGN (for the Prism days)
6. National Distress / One Failway.

Right now I'd move the current GA instance below the big gap and close (but just ahead of) to WAGN.

 

[Railperf]

Ridiculous. They should be having whatever exams or other work is necessary to get them back into service before the 745s arrive.
What's the point in storing the legacy fleet for the remainder of the franchise (which is what I understand is required) if they can't be run anyway because they need overhauls or exams?

Richard Clinnick posted a picture of the consist at Norwich. Surely the 745s must be on the verge of coming into service.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Happened from Day 1 of National Express taking over, poor timetables, neglected stations and trains, the fllthy 322s, poor customer service, no investment, bargain basement spending on everything, sponsored announcements over the PA, plans to replace 360s with 321s, the Ipswich departure screens debacle (nothing summed up lack of wanting to spend more than that), lack of cleaning or roofs, terrible liveries, poor reliability, threadbare seats, the list goes on.

However whilst the first tenure of Greater Anglia was a welcome improvement over what went before them, this latest franchise is a marked decline so far that is still ongoing.

I'd rank them in my lifetime of commuting up until the last 18 months
1. First Great Eastern
2. Anglia Railways
3. Greater Anglia (original)
4. Greater Anglia (new)
<big gap>
5. WAGN (for the Prism days)
6. National Distress / One Failway.

Right now I'd move the current GA instance below the big gap and close (but just ahead of) to WAGN.

Out of interest, what was wrong with WAGN?

 

[RailWonderer]

Personally I blame NX(edit: NXEA). Between 2004-2012 the rolling stock, stations and facilities were so neglected paint was peeling, seats and windows were filthy and the list goes on as mentioned up thread by FGE. The neglect is still seen today, I.e, the robust feel of the 321/4s from LM and FCC as opposed to the original 321/3s and 360s dirty on the walls and grime on the vents and lights of different dimness through the coach.

Only now a long term franchise has been given, it will take years to see a turnaround, and that’s assuming there will be honest, pragmatic, hard working communicative management in the process.

But more relevant is the issue of lease expiry. GA have shown with MK3s and 170s they are prepared to send them off for storage or for cascade. 321 and 360 leases are coming up, will this mean we will lose all our 360s next year? We know there will be very few if any 720s by this time next year.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Out of interest, what was wrong with WAGN?

WAGN was good in the early days under prism but in the later days the stock wasn't great and a little unloved compared to what it was under Prism and National Express seemed rather disinterested with poor customer service and the often mentioned joke about Waiting Around Going Nowhere and the large number of livery variations, with plain white being a common nice one (joke).

 

[EssexGonzo]

I was on a peak Liverpool St to Southend Service - every single previous instance of which that I ever saw having been a 12-coach - advertised on the boards as a 12-coach but actually only 8. Luckily, we're still in the half term.

Presumably as a result of 321s being nicked for the Norwich service? I've seen three 321 Norwich services at LST this week.

 

[samuelmorris]

strange how neglected the fleet was especially between around 2008 through to 2014
this wouldn't have happened with south west trains

Not sure what SWT had to do with it? No, it didn't really happen with SWT as they were more image-conscious than NX/GA.

Personally I blame NX. Between 2004-2012 the rolling stock, stations and facilities were so neglected paint was peeling, seats and windows were filthy and the list goes on as mentioned up thread by FGE. The neglect is still seen today, I.e, the robust feel of the 321/4s from LM and FCC as opposed to the original 321/3s and 360s dirty on the walls and grime on the vents and lights of different dimness through the coach.

The thing is, Silverlink (where the /4s operated before it became LM) was a National Express company, so it's NXEA you're after specifically.

There's a path in for this afternoon (1/11) which should see 37401 take 8 Mk3s from Crown Point to the MNR for storage.

Are these all defective? It seems madness to retire them just yet otherwise.

 

[43096]

But more relevant is the issue of lease expiry. GA have shown with MK3s and 170s they are prepared to send them off for storage or for cascade. 321 and 360 leases are coming up, will this mean we will lose all our 360s next year? We know there will be very few if any 720s by this time next year.

I’m not sure you understand how it works. In the case of the 156s, 170s and 360s the ROSCOs have got new contracts for these signed with different operators. GA don’t have the option to extend the existing lease - best they can do is hope to agree a sub-lease back from the new operator. No guarantees of course - these operators have their own commitments for PRM compliance and franchise commitments.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I’m not sure you understand how it works. In the case of the 156s, 170s and 360s the ROSCOs have got new contracts for these signed with different operators. GA don’t have the option to extend the existing lease - best they can do is hope to agree a sub-lease back from the new operator. No guarantees of course - these operators have their own commitments for PRM compliance and franchise commitments.

Greater Anglia don't today, no, but they did have options before the new stock was procured, but the problem we are seeing once again comes back to Greater Anglia's unrealistic timetable for bringing the new trains into service which was never likely to be achieved and they gave themselves absloutely no margin for error in the delivery and comissioning of two unproven fleets of new trains.

As part of the current franchise, GA extended the lease of most of the stock, but didn't do it enough because their timescales were hopelessly optimistic, drawn up by a bidding team with little operations experience who didn't seek the input of such people and instead had an engineering director wih no rail experience.

The 360s have already been extended as a contingency to cover the late arrivals of the 720s, the fact that we're talking about them ideally needing to be kept on for longer else there might be problems ahead, despite already having their stay extended once, tells you all you need to know about the pup the operations team have been sold by the bid team.

 

[RailWonderer]

I’m not sure you understand how it works. In the case of the 156s, 170s and 360s the ROSCOs have got new contracts for these signed with different operators. GA don’t have the option to extend the existing lease - best they can do is hope to agree a sub-lease back from the new operator. No guarantees of course - these operators have their own commitments for PRM compliance and franchise commitments.

ROSCOs have sealed new contracts because GA didn't extend leases in the first place because they operate with so little foresight and it's worrying. There should normally be a clause in the contract where stock can't be sent off if it means reliability will be decimated if it does, down to lack of rolling stock in the case of 156s and 170s. As for 360s, there is a slither of hope with EMR being an Abellio company.