Greater Manchester has "ambitions" for devolution of some local rail services from 2025

[blackpoolsouth]

So why can’t I buy a £1.15 ticket for a journey at 8am tomorrow morning, but I can after 9:30am? It’s the same situation the next day.

Also, why are the ticket prices north of Bolton on the line to Blackburn significantly reduced compared to stations on other lines in Greater Manchester?

I wonder if northern have pulled the ones on the earlier trains. Seen that before when the Christmas markers are on, the cheap fares to Macclesfield or Stoke strangely disappear

If you can buy it for the 0930 train ie pre £12 minimum before 1000 it seems possible the above applies after all they are quota controlled

 

[Purple Orange]

I wonder if northern have pulled the ones on the earlier trains. Seen that before when the Christmas markers are on, the cheap fares to Macclesfield or Stoke strangely disappear

If you can buy it for the 0930 train ie pre £12 minimum before 1000 it seems possible the above applies after all they are quota controlled

I regularly use the lines through Cheadle Hulme, and I’ve not once seen fares as cheap as the the Hall-I-th-wood fare (apart from when Northern have done their £1 sale, but thats a one-off). Would be great to see though!

 

[slipdigby]

Well over 20 posts on the subject of fares variability in a relatively small urban area - symptomatic of the mess things are in. Hopefully TfGM will consider this issue as an absolute priority in any discussions they are having before they start splashing yellow paint everywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well over 20 posts on the subject of fares variability in a relatively small urban area - symptomatic of the mess things are in. Hopefully TfGM will consider this issue as an absolute priority in any discussions they are having before they start splashing yellow paint everywhere.

Yellow paint is fairly easy to do. Regional Railways had branded liveries for each of the PTEs even though those units just ended up in a pool. (During the short period when GMPTE had a hissy fit with BR and withdrew funding, they stuck "Manchester Airport - your gateway to the sky" stickers over the "curly M" logos, though these were later reinstated when the money was).

On the other hand, slapping yellow paint on a bad Northern service (unless they sneaked some sticky "upside down W" M logos onto it and blamed the Scousers ) could well cause too much reputational damage. It took some effort for Virgin Trains to recover from this in their early days, for example.

 

[WatcherZero]

That was to promote the opening of the new Airport spur. The stickers read "Your Platform - airxpress - To the World". It was a PTE publicity campaign, it wasnt connected to any withdrawal of funding.

 

[childwallblues]

The London Overground shares Euston and Liverpool St stations with other main line operators, the North London Line with freight and out to Croydon on lines used by Thameslink and Southern. So I see no reason Manchester could not do something similar. I'm old enough to remember Greater Manchester liveried Pacers on many local services. One might imagine a TfGM fleet of DMUS being ordered, which would then cascade others elsewhere in Northern. The 323s would simply get painted back into their original Manchester livery for the electric lines. What must not happen of course is any crazy turning trains back at borders. I don't think Andy Burnham is that daft.

There will be a lot more 323s when those from WM are cascaded to Northern to replace the 319s.
Currently the 319s are operating mainly on services from Liverpool to Wigan and Blackpool. I don't think Rotheram will be well pleased having Manchester liveried trainson his patch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be a lot more 323s when those from WM are cascaded to Northern to replace the 319s.
Currently the 319s are operating mainly on services from Liverpool to Wigan and Blackpool. I don't think Rotheram will be well pleased having Manchester liveried trainson his patch.

There were Merseyrail liveried trains in Manchester and GMPTE liveried ones on Merseyside for years. Most people probably didn't even notice. The "City Lines"/TfGM network are too interwoven for that not to happen from time to time.

Made even easier, I suppose, by them both now being yellow, with Manchester having abandoned the traditional orange.

 

[MattRat]

There will be a lot more 323s when those from WM are cascaded to Northern to replace the 319s.
Currently the 319s are operating mainly on services from Liverpool to Wigan and Blackpool. I don't think Rotheram will be well pleased having Manchester liveried trainson his patch.

As a Liverpudlian, the two Mayors get on great, due to their combined hatred of Westminster (enemy of my enemy). Plus, Rotherham would love some trams in Liverpool like Metrolink, so I think the two are even.

 

[childwallblues]

There were Merseyrail liveried trains in Manchester and GMPTE liveried ones on Merseyside for years. Most people probably didn't even notice. The "City Lines"/TfGM network are too interwoven for that not to happen from time to time.

Made even easier, I suppose, by them both now being yellow, with Manchester having abandoned the traditional orange.

Maybe so but not if they have bee logos all over them.

 

[CE142]

There will be a lot more 323s when those from WM are cascaded to Northern to replace the 319s.
Currently the 319s are operating mainly on services from Liverpool to Wigan and Blackpool. I don't think Rotheram will be well pleased having Manchester liveried trainson his patch.

As they'll be working 'Cross Border' services, Perhaps they could paint one half in GMT Orange, Brown and White and the other half in MPTE Green and cream?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As they'll be working 'Cross Border' services, Perhaps they could paint one half in GMT Orange, Brown and White and the other half in MPTE Green and cream?

To be fair all the Merseyrail units are grey on one side and yellow on the other, so it's not that far fetched. More likely is that they'll be in Northern livery with both "PTE" logos on them, though.

 

[childwallblues]

The easiest answer is to leave them in an independent livery so nobody is offended. After all they will spend a lot of time in Liverpool getting to and from Allerton Depot.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Comes back to the old adage of "I don't care what colour the train is as long as it turns up"!

 

[Howardh]

Comes back to the old adage of "I don't care what colour the train is as long as it turns up"!

With the exception of Manchester's horrible custard-and-grey trams!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the exception of Manchester's horrible custard-and-grey trams!

I get the "bee" thing but the use of yellow always feels like Merseyrail envy to me. I liked the old turquoise, black and white, and of course there's the traditional orange too.

 

[Howardh]

I get the "bee" thing but the use of yellow always feels like Merseyrail envy to me. I liked the old turquoise, black and white, and of course there's the traditional orange too.

In Manchester best not use red or light blue!! The orange/cream buses under SELNEC were OK, became horrible when the brown was added.

I'd paint all the buses and trams in rainbow colours!!

 

[HYPODERMIC]

With the exception of Manchester's horrible custard-and-grey trams!

I get the "bee" thing but the use of yellow always feels like Merseyrail envy to me. I liked the old turquoise, black and white, and of course there's the traditional orange too.

I really like the yellow trams! To my eyes, the current livery looks bright, upbeat, and modern. I vaguely recall reading that the designers chose yellow because they believed it would add a splash of colour that would bright up a city stereotypically associated with gloomy clouds and red bricks; and I think it works perfectly. My perception is liable to be skewed because I have spent more time in Manchester than other regional cities, but I think the yellow/silver livery looks significantly more appealing and memorable (ie something which I feel is iconic of that city and likely to be remembered/associated with it) than the various bus liveries that have been seen on Sheffield Supertrams (eurgh) or the dark-blue/dark-red combo that previously featured on WM Metro trams (bland). The yellow station signage also pops against busy backgrounds, and looks bright and welcoming. For a street running system, yellow also has the important advantage of being highly visible for people with restricted visual acuity.

Whereas to my eyes the 1992-era white, black and turquoise livery looks very dated and gave off a grey vibe on a rainy day! To me it evokes the most damaging connotations of public transport - a dull, sterile, undesirable, unattractive public service. Public transport can and should look and feel like a cool, modern, attractive product.

 

[The exile]

Public transport can and should look and feel like a cool, modern, attractive product.

I’d settle for it being one!

 

[MattRat]

I get the "bee" thing but the use of yellow always feels like Merseyrail envy to me. I liked the old turquoise, black and white, and of course there's the traditional orange too.

And as a Liverpudlian, we are jealous of their trams, so I say we're even.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah agree, the old regional railways livery looks like something you would associate with an office job.

 

[WatcherZero]

Deal agreed in the budget, bit of give and take but whats been agreed is that from 2024/5 Greater Manchester will receive a single departmental level capital and revenue settlement covering growth, housing, local transport (city region sustainable transport funds from the end of the current 5 year settlement in 2027) and adult skills meaning they can spend however much they want on whatever project they want so long as it aligns with agreed policy objectives and revenu budget is sustainable. they no longer have to bid to government pots for individual project funds. They will still be able to bid for national project (pan regional) competitive funds However they will become ineligible for bidding for certain local funds and from 2025 they would no longer receive any transport subsidies to support the Bee Network e.g BSOG or Covid relief funds for Metrolink.

There is a commitment to try and get a rail PAYG trial agreed during 2023. From 2027 all rail stations will start receiving Bee Network co-branding and its adopted as the local station signage and design standard, from 2030 local rail services will be devolved so TfGM can set their own prices and integrate them with bus and tram for multi-modal touch ticketing. GMCA has also been given the right to commercially develop stations and surrounding land. The Transport 2040 strategy is adopted as Westminsters planning policy framework for the city region (i.e. Westminsters guiding policy in decision making) and GMCA will be able to directly commission rail infrastructure in support of the plan. They will be given access to all government and operator rail data subject to contractual and legislative constraints (MOIRA, LENNON, government surveys and counts and operator costings and financial data). When Great British Rail is up and running the Manchester rail board will be a continuation of the work of the Manchester Taskforce advising government on local rail issues. Some of the agreed arrangements will be transitionary or ad hoc until then e.g via the Network Rail North West business unit or a continuation of the .
Government will consult on giving all Combined Authorities the power to create transport by-laws.

West midlands has agreed a similar city region deal, they will get their own Great British Railways rail board, will develop a local rail brand and will get a guaranteed PAYG ticketing trial agreed by the end of the year.

Manchester transport devolution deal to deliver London-styled integrated network | Rail Technology Magazine

In a transformative new devolution deal with the UK government, Transport for Greater Manchester will gain newfound authority and

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

Manchester transport devolution deal to deliver London-styled integrated network​

In a transformative new devolution deal with the UK government, Transport for Greater Manchester will gain newfound authority and influence over regional rail services within the Bee Network.
The Bee Network will now be an integrated transport system, akin to that of London, seeing the integration of bus, Metrolink, rail and cycle hire services under the guidance of one dynamic body. This will result in improved services, simpler fares and integrated ticketing to improve the customer experience.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143001/Greater_Manchester_Combined_Authority_Trailblazer_deeper_devolution_deal.pdf#page21

 

[childwallblues]

As a Liverpudlian, the two Mayors get on great, due to their combined hatred of Westminster (enemy of my enemy). Plus, Rotherham would love some trams in Liverpool like Metrolink, so I think the two are even.

Remember the proposed Merseytram. Scrapped in 2009 by a Labour Government.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Greater Manchester and West Midlands deals were mentioned in the Budget speech, and appear to be similar to the Welsh and Scottish funding models with a single annual pot being agreed across several sectors, linked to the Barnett formula.
This gives the local authorities more autonomy over where/how to spend the money, but also more public scrutiny via committees of local MPs.
Andy Burnham seemed pleased that the government had accepted the need for greater devolution.
I think the expectation is that similar deals will eventually be done with other locally-elected mayors.
GBR will have to accommodate these devolved structures in its organisation.

 

[nr758123]

We need to understand how this will affect cross-boundary services and fares. The Manchester travel-to-work area does not end at Greenfield, Littleborough, Bromley Cross or Blackrod.

 

[Meerkat]

West midlands has agreed a similar city region deal, they will get their own Great British Railways rail board, will develop a local rail brand and will get a guaranteed PAYG ticketing trial agreed by the end of the year.

Manchester transport devolution deal to deliver London-styled integrated network | Rail Technology Magazine

In a transformative new devolution deal with the UK government, Transport for Greater Manchester will gain newfound authority and

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143001/Greater_Manchester_Combined_Authority_Trailblazer_deeper_devolution_deal.pdf#page21

Any ideas what this bit means?

GMCA also commits to engage meaningfully with the government and the private sector on the financial package, including on a locally led funding strategy for High Speed 2 scope, as informed by progression of the Hybrid Bill, with the expectation of significant progress by the end of 2023.

 

[Mwanesh]

We need to understand how this will affect cross-boundary services and fares. The Manchester travel-to-work area does not end at Greenfield, Littleborough, Bromley Cross or Blackrod.

My thoughts exactly. Most don't care what happens beyond their boundaries

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any ideas what this bit means?

I seem to recall that the (in my view absolutely essential) Manchester Airport/South Manchester Parkway station on 2B is locally funded.

 

[MattRat]

I seem to recall that the (in my view absolutely essential) Manchester Airport/South Manchester Parkway station on 2B is locally funded.

Is there any way local funding could be expanded upon later down the line. Say for a new underground station for intercity services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah governments always said it would have to be locally funded.

 

[Parjon]

There were Merseyrail liveried trains in Manchester and GMPTE liveried ones on Merseyside for years. Most people probably didn't even notice. The "City Lines"/TfGM network are too interwoven for that not to happen from time to time.

Made even easier, I suppose, by them both now being yellow, with Manchester having abandoned the traditional orange.

The livery is a proxy for the real issue: The vast majority of City Line stations are in the Liverpool region, with less than a handful in GM, and the Liverpool region has for decades produced the vast majority of passenger journeys, dwarfing the numbers produced by Manchester. This includes journeys wholly within the metropolitan area, at a proportion of something like 4 to 1.

The inclusion of the City Line within Manchester trains ownership, even shared, would amount to local control being taken away from where it should reside. It would be offensive for Manchester to seize the financial benefit of millions of Liverpool passengers' fares and control our services.