Greater Manchester has to borrow police officers from Wales to police EDL protest

[pemma]

Just seen a report on Granada Reports that Greater Manchester Police had to borrow police officers from other forces after the EDL turned up in Manchester due to not having enough of their own officers. It wasn't mentioned where the other police were borrowed from but they were wearing Welsh police uniforms, which gives a clue.

 

[Gemz91]

Seems to be usual practice during large marches and events. I've seen Merseyside and Thames Valley police in Lincolnshire for marches and sport events.

 

[StarCrossing]

There was an EDL march in Bristol (in 2012 IIRC) and there were police from all over. The furthest I recall was South Yorkshire. It was a scary day. The only people in the streets when I went out were police and people in balaclavas.

 

[CC 72100]

There's been welsh police in Manchester on regular patrols for the last week + now. Seen a couple today to.

 

[Crossover]

Someone posted elsewhere (not on here) of seeing police from Essex and Kent (I think) constabularies in the area.

Last week when the One Love Manchester event was on, the policeman who went viral after dancing with some of the folk outside the ground was from the Darlington area

 

[PHILIPE]

There were Police Officers from all over the UK in Cardiff for the Champions League Final. I have read that thanks were sent from the Met to Cardiff Riding School for providing accommodation for some of their horses during this time .

 

[the sniper]

Just seen a report on Granada Reports that Greater Manchester Police had to borrow police officers from other forces after the EDL turned up in Manchester due to not having enough of their own officers. It wasn't mentioned where the other police were borrowed from but they were wearing Welsh police uniforms, which gives a clue.

As others have said it's pretty standard for anything like this or any major event. It's called "Mutual Aid". It takes advantage of having Public Order trained PSU/TSG units in Forces up and down the country, letting them do what they're specially trained to do and helping not to overstretch any single Force's resources too far.

IIRC, in many Forces the majority of PCs aren't Public Order trained, so Mutual Aid can provide necessary extra fully trained (known as Level 1) Public Order PCs that the host Force might not have. I don't know that this would be the case in Manchester though, as I believe GMP traditionally used to give all its PCs Public Order training and it's a very large Force.

Another benefit of Mutual Aid is that without being used outside their Force area, some Forces PSUs/Level 1 Public Order trained PCs wouldn't get much/any practical experience of large scale Public Order policing. So it keeps them battle ready.

 

[furnessvale]

Seems to be usual practice during large marches and events. I've seen Merseyside and Thames Valley police in Lincolnshire for marches and sport events.

My Chief Super nearly choked on his cornflakes when he was watching the local news on the TV and recognised several PCs walking up a plane gangplank en route to the Netherlands to escort some unruly football fans back to the UK.

First he'd heard of it!

 

[TheEdge]

IIRC, in many Forces the majority of PCs aren't Public Order trained, so Mutual Aid can provide necessary extra fully trained (known as Level 1) Public Order PCs that the host Force might not have. I don't know that this would be the case in Manchester though, as I believe GMP traditionally used to give all its PCs Public Order training and it's a very large Force.

While I know its normal for provincial forces (I've spotted lots of out of town police in Norwich for football matches) I'm surprised a force the size of GMP has to call in extras. I'd have though GMP, the Met and possibly West Midlands would be the ones handing out additional officers rather than needing them.

I wonder if its down to the combination of needing extra officers due to the EDL march anyway and then extras due to the recent attacks.

 

[furnessvale]

While I know its normal for provincial forces (I've spotted lots of out of town police in Norwich for football matches) I'm surprised a force the size of GMP has to call in extras. I'd have though GMP, the Met and possibly West Midlands would be the ones handing out additional officers rather than needing them.

I wonder if its down to the combination of needing extra officers due to the EDL march anyway and then extras due to the recent attacks.

Every force only has sufficient officers for its regular commitments. The larger the force, the larger the regular commitment so it is perfectly possible that a large force will need help if all its available men are committed.

 

[Iskra]

This really isn't news and has been going on for years. The most obvious and enduring sharing of resources that I see seems to be with the mounted sections of South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester police who routinely seem to appear at football matches in each others areas all the time.

While I know its normal for provincial forces (I've spotted lots of out of town police in Norwich for football matches) I'm surprised a force the size of GMP has to call in extras. I'd have though GMP, the Met and possibly West Midlands would be the ones handing out additional officers rather than needing them.

I wonder if its down to the combination of needing extra officers due to the EDL march anyway and then extras due to the recent attacks.

I distinctly remember over 10 riot vans full of Scottish police arriving at the service station I worked at as a student heading to the London Riots in 2011. So no matter what size the force is, they can still be overstretched.

 

[pemma]

I think the news is they are having to borrow officers when a couple of years ago they wouldn't have needed to. The Guardian has reported they have lost almost 2,000 officers as a result of budget cuts and they needed 400 to police last Sunday's protest: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...lice-under-real-strain-due-to-cuts-says-chief

 

[Jordeh]

I think the news is they are having to borrow officers when a couple of years ago they wouldn't have needed to. The Guardian has reported they have lost almost 2,000 officers as a result of budget cuts and they needed 400 to police last Sunday's protest: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...lice-under-real-strain-due-to-cuts-says-chief

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

It makes a lot of sense to pool resources for when they are needed rather than pointlessly training lots of officers for rare events. Officers who are rarely involved in public order are unlikely to be as good when called upon anyway.

The statistics show most crime is falling after all, were these extra officers really needed?

 

[pemma]

The statistics show most crime is falling after all

You do realise there is and has always been a lot of unreported crimes. Criminal gangs don't grass on each other or their rival gangs. Others who are victims of less serious crimes often don't bother reporting them as it can be a lot of hassle and all they end up with is a crime reference number, possibly useful for an insurance claim but nothing else.

 

[Jordeh]

You do realise there is and has always been a lot of unreported crimes. Criminal gangs don't grass on each other or their rival gangs. Others who are victims of less serious crimes often don't bother reporting them as it can be a lot of hassle and all they end up with is a crime reference number, possibly useful for an insurance claim but nothing else.

If your argument is entirely based on unreported crimes then you haven't really got one.

The Crime Survey attempts to measure unreported crime anyway and shows the same trend as reported crime - it is falling.

I don't see any evidence that those extra police officers were needed. Personally I'm glad to see taxpayers money isn't being wasted.

 

[pemma]

The Crime Survey attempts to measure unreported crime anyway and shows the same trend as reported crime - it is falling.

And who exactly does it do that? OK if someone turns up at a hospital with a gunshot wound and refuses to say how it's been obtained then it's highly likely a crime has been committed but can you tell how many unreported garden gnome thefts there have been from sales of garden gnomes?

With regards to policing protests I accept the argument that specialised staff may be better than local staff with little relevant experience but if the specialised staff are non-local then they have to work alongside local staff as they'll lack local knowledge.

 

[Jordeh]

And who exactly does it do that? OK if someone turns up at a hospital with a gunshot wound and refuses to say how it's been obtained then it's highly likely a crime has been committed but can you tell how many unreported garden gnome thefts there have been from sales of garden gnomes?

With regards to policing protests I accept the argument that specialised staff may be better than local staff with little relevant experience but if the specialised staff are non-local then they have to work alongside local staff as they'll lack local knowledge.

So we should have an unlimited number of police officers for an unlimited number of unreported crimes?

The Crime Survey is based on people's perceptions of crime, that is how it calculates the difference between reported and unreported crimes. There's also no chance of police bias this way.

 

[pemma]

So we should have an unlimited number of police officers for an unlimited number of unreported crimes?

No but you can't justify the argument that crime is falling so police funding cuts are justified based solely on some statistics which use estimates. Opinion polls use what they believe are methods which can successfully estimate how people will vote without needing to ask the entire population and they sometimes get it right but sometimes get it very wrong.

Also worth remembering as inflation is rising so the cost of employing each staff member should also be rising. My local police station no longer opens at the weekends so if the police were to come to my house at the weekend it would require a 14 mile round trip, rather than a 2 mile round trip, which obviously takes up more of their time.

 

[PHILIPE]

No but you can't justify the argument that crime is falling so police funding cuts are justified based solely on some statistics which use estimates. Opinion polls use what they believe are methods which can successfully estimate how people will vote without needing to ask the entire population and they sometimes get it right but sometimes get it very wrong.

Also worth remembering as inflation is rising so the cost of employing each staff member should also be rising. My local police station no longer opens at the weekends so if the police were to come to my house at the weekend it would require a 14 mile round trip, rather than a 2 mile round trip, which obviously takes up more of their time.

I'm sure that the crime figures are only those that are reported. My opinion. and that of others I have read about, is that people don't always report crimes because they think it's a waste of time because suitable and quick action doesn't seem to be taken.

 

[Jordeh]

No but you can't justify the argument that crime is falling so police funding cuts are justified based solely on some statistics which use estimates. Opinion polls use what they believe are methods which can successfully estimate how people will vote without needing to ask the entire population and they sometimes get it right but sometimes get it very wrong.

I am the only one justifying my argument here, crime is falling whether you look at reported or unreported crime. If estimates aren't good enough for you, then what will be?

I've already explained how the Crime Survey calculates unreported crime as it is based on perception and that's not good enough either?

So we should employ more police officers purely based on your own anecdotal evidence?

 

[pemma]

I am the only one justifying my argument here, crime is falling whether you look at reported or unreported crime. If estimates aren't good enough for you, then what will be?

I've already explained how the Crime Survey calculates unreported crime as it is based on perception and that's not good enough either?

So we should employ more police officers purely based on your own anecdotal evidence?

I've given you an examples where an estimates have been believed to be reliable but have later proven to be completely inaccurate but you're claiming the estimates in unreported crime figures are not only seen as reliable but can be used to justify police funding cuts.

You've ignored what I've said about rising costs which would mean a frozen budget would result in police cuts never mind a cut budget. You've also ignored what I said about police station closures meaning police spend more time getting to/from places so can spend less time doing the hard work.

You also seem to be claiming I'm arguing the cuts are unjustified and those police jobs should be reinstated. I'm not - I'm arguing the lack of evidence for making those cuts. You're trying to put words in my mouth because I'm questioning the reliability of your evidence.

 

[Jordeh]

I've given you an examples where an estimates have been believed to be reliable but have later proven to be completely inaccurate but you're claiming the estimates in unreported crime figures are not only seen as reliable but can be used to justify police funding cuts.

You've ignored what I've said about rising costs which would mean a frozen budget would result in police cuts never mind a cut budget. You've also ignored what I said about police station closures meaning police spend more time getting to/from places so can spend less time doing the hard work.

You also seem to be claiming I'm arguing the cuts are unjustified and those police jobs should be reinstated. I'm not - I'm arguing the lack of evidence for making those cuts. You're trying to put words in my mouth because I'm questioning the reliability of your evidence.

I am well aware of the difficulties of sampling and that it is not perfect - it is the best possible approach however.

The onus is on you to provide evidence that the cuts to policing have had a negative impact - because the evidence I've provided shows otherwise.

 

[pemma]

Provide better evidence then.

Says the person who resorted to making up a false claim when I questioned the reliability of a vague claim in an earlier post. :roll: Welcome to the forum Theresa May

Actually I admit I made a mistake in an earlier post. On checking my town is served by Macclesfield police station at the weekend (I thought it was Wilmslow but they are now also closed at the weekend) so it would be a 24 mile round trip for a police officer to get to and from my house.

 

[Jordeh]

Says the person who resorted to making up a false claim when I questioned the reliability of a vague claim in an earlier post. :roll: Welcome to the forum Theresa May

Actually I admit I made a mistake in an earlier post. On checking my town is served by Macclesfield police station at the weekend (I thought it was Wilmslow but they are now also closed at the weekend) so it would be a 24 mile round trip for a police officer to get to and from my house.

Sorry which claim?

 

[pemma]

the evidence I've provided shows otherwise.

All you've said is the Crime Survey. That actually fraud and computer related crimes have risen significantly since 2014 and that overall crime in 2016 was higher than in 2014. (Crime did fall until 2014.) So your one and only reference doesn't paint the picture you thought it did! The blue line on the chart in the report which implies falling crime actually excludes fraud and computer related crimes.

 

[Jordeh]

All you've said is the Crime Survey. That actually fraud and computer related crimes have risen significantly since 2014 and that overall crime in 2016 was higher than in 2014. (Crime did fall until 2014.) So your one and only reference doesn't paint the picture you thought it did!

Can you not read?

The statistics show most crime is falling after all, were these extra officers really needed?

 

[AlterEgo]

On checking my town is served by Macclesfield police station at the weekend (I thought it was Wilmslow but they are now also closed at the weekend) so it would be a 24 mile round trip for a police officer to get to and from my house.

Do you mean on a 999 call? Do police officer just sit around all day until they receive a 999 call, or do they go on the beat, visit victims, collect statements, etc?

 

[pemma]

Can you not read?

I'm sure we can agree some types of crimes need more police resource than others. Finding out who did the virtual bank robbery of Tesco Bank is a much harder task than finding out who went in to a specific bank branch and robbed it. Are you saying the more difficult to solve crimes are falling in number?

 

[pemma]

Do you mean on a 999 call? Do police officer just sit around all day until they receive a 999 call, or do they go on the beat, visit victims, collect statements, etc?

While this thread is supposed to be about Greater Manchester, the only 'police on the beat' you see daytime weekends in smaller Cheshire towns are PSCOs. If there's a proper police officer around then it likely means either there's a special event on or they are attending to an already reported incident. There have been reports of people having to wait for a police officer 25 miles away to get to the scene as all the closer ones are already attending to other incidents.

 

[Iskra]

I think the news is they are having to borrow officers when a couple of years ago they wouldn't have needed to. The Guardian has reported they have lost almost 2,000 officers as a result of budget cuts and they needed 400 to police last Sunday's protest: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...lice-under-real-strain-due-to-cuts-says-chief

It's not true though is it. I've already given you two examples, one ongoing, one from 2011- 6 years ago. There is a long history of the police borrowing from other forces, the miners strike being a historic example.

If less police doesn't mean more crime, then what's the problem?