Greater Manchester Multi-operator ticket query

[heathrowrail]

Does anyone know if there will be a cross network ticket introduced at launch day? I'm visiting Manchester in October and it would be handy to only have to buy one ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know if there will be a cross network ticket introduced at launch day? I'm visiting Manchester in October and it would be handy to only have to buy one ticket.

There already is one, it costs £5 for any bus.

Also various other bus, train and tram options:

System One Travel - Unlimited travel on any bus, train or tram across Greater Manchester

The one thing there isn't is an Anytime product or season valid on all three modes.

 

[johncrossley]

Does anyone know if there will be a cross network ticket introduced at launch day? I'm visiting Manchester in October and it would be handy to only have to buy one ticket.

There is one thing to be aware of if you plan to use the 362 outside the GM boundary. System One tickets are *not* valid and you need to get a special "Bee Bus" ticket. The Bee Bus ticket is only valid on Bee Network buses. It is also £5 a day. So this is bound to cause confusion. Why couldn't they just allow System One tickets on the whole 362 route?

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, it's all an enormous mess to be honest.

What they need to do is rip up the whole ticketing system and start again. A simple zonal fare system for the whole of Greater Manchester covering all three modes (with caps for singles at £2, day tickets at £5 etc.) would be much better. The ticket range should consist of singles, 24-hour tickets (none of this "end of service on calendar day of purchase" rubbish - a day ticket should actually be valid for a full day), 7-day tickets, 28-day tickets and 365-day tickets.

They also need to make up their mind who they want differential pricing for and then implement it across the whole range. Having a child discount for monthly but not yearly tickets, for example, is entirely nonsensical from a passenger perspective.

 

[andrewbowden]

There is one thing to be aware of if you plan to use the 362 outside the GM boundary. System One tickets are *not* valid and you need to get a special "Bee Bus" ticket. The Bee Bus ticket is only valid on Bee Network buses. It is also £5 a day. So this is bound to cause confusion. Why couldn't they just allow System One tickets on the whole 362 route?

I'd guess because that would involve complexity with the System One agreements. Do you extend System One all the way to Chorley on all services? Restrict it to just one route? If it's just one route, how easy would it be to change the criteria of that route? Or do you extend the System One validity to include all Bee Network services regardless. But how does that impact the financial situation for operators of the remaining non-franchise services? It would probably require negotiations. And maybe isn't worth it given that in 2025 the vast majority of services will be Bee Network.

There's probably no perfect solution to this although it is temporary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think in due course it will be reviewed and the independent System One company disbanded. Give them chance

I suspect the reasons for System One needing to retain current borders is probably competition law related.

 

[andrewbowden]

Yes, it's all an enormous mess to be honest.

What they need to do is rip up the whole ticketing system and start again. A simple zonal fare system for the whole of Greater Manchester covering all three modes (with caps for singles at £2, day tickets at £5 etc.) would be much better. The ticket range should consist of singles, 24-hour tickets (none of this "end of service on calendar day of purchase" rubbish - a day ticket should actually be valid for a full day), 7-day tickets, 28-day tickets and 365-day tickets.

They also need to make up their mind who they want differential pricing for and then implement it across the whole range. Having a child discount for monthly but not yearly tickets, for example, is entirely nonsensical from a passenger perspective.

London doesn't offer 24 hour tickets - your travelcard ends at 4:30am. It's a lot simpler.

And give them chance to get things moving. Realisitically they need the whole network done before they can make a lot of major changes.

 

[johncrossley]

People that live in Chorley, like me are now going to lose out. I get Arriva day and weekly tickets quite often to visit friends in St Helens and Liverpool. I now will have to buy two tickets so will probably just go in the car.

It was just a fluke that Arriva happened to run all the routes you needed. There's never a guarantee that two separate routes will be operated by the same company in perpetuity, which is a big problem with single company tickets. Someone travelling from Chorley to somewhere on the Bee Network but not on the Arriva network will benefit from the change.

There are ways of avoiding or minimising the effect of crossing ticket zones. You could have a per-km system that works nationwide like they have in the Netherlands. Or you could have overlapping zone systems like they have in Germany.

 

[WatcherZero]

Or you could just get old :P

 

[323235]

So does this mean you can only use Bee Bus tickets on Bee Buses and System one / Get me there on none Bee Network buses?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is one thing to be aware of if you plan to use the 362 outside the GM boundary. System One tickets are *not* valid and you need to get a special "Bee Bus" ticket. The Bee Bus ticket is only valid on Bee Network buses. It is also £5 a day. So this is bound to cause confusion. Why couldn't they just allow System One tickets on the whole 362 route?

I know of a couple of people in Coppull who have mentioned this to me.

 

[andrewbowden]

So does this mean you can only use Bee Bus tickets on Bee Buses and System one / Get me there on none Bee Network buses?

You can use a System One ticket on Bee Network buses within the System One zone.

System One Travel - Unlimited travel on any bus, train or tram across Greater Manchester

 

[323235]

So you will be able to use System one tickets on all buses within the System One zone but Bee Network tickets are only valid on the Bee Network buses throughout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you will be able to use System one tickets on all buses within the System One zone but Bee Network tickets are only valid on the Bee Network buses throughout.

As things stand, yes. I would expect this to be rationalised (by removing the System One tickets, most probably) once the Bee Network has fully rolled out.

 

[Deerfold]

As things stand, yes. I would expect this to be rationalised (by removing the System One tickets, most probably) once the Bee Network has fully rolled out.

Do you know what the plans are for those non-Bee services that are licensed? Will a condition be accepting Bee tickets within Greater Manchester?

 

[WatcherZero]

They have to accept Bee tickets and are held to the same quality of service (punctuality) and bus standards.

 

[GusB]

Thread reopened for an update from @Andyh82.

 

[Andyh82]

So you will be able to use System one tickets on all buses within the System One zone but Bee Network tickets are only valid on the Bee Network buses throughout.

So it seems that there are 3 day tickets currently in circulation

“Bee Any Bus” - costs £5 valid on all buses in Greater Manchester

“Bee Bus” - costs £5 valid on all Bee Network buses including outside Greater Manchester, which at the moment in time is basically just service 362 to Chorley. This suggests it isn’t valid on non Bee Network buses in Greater Manchester although I wonder if that was actually the case.

“System One Day AnyBus” - costs £5 valid on all buses in Greater Manchester, but seemingly still issued on non franchised services, like I was on a Go North West service today.


The middle one is the complication and might become more so once cross boundary service 100 joins the Bee Network as I’d say that was a more prominent service what with it running into Manchester itself. Cross boundary 184 to Huddersfield also joins in the next tranche.

 

[Leedsbusman]

So it seems that there are 3 day tickets currently in circulation

“Bee Any Bus” - costs £5 valid on all buses in Greater Manchester

“Bee Bus” - costs £5 valid on all Bee Network buses including outside Greater Manchester, which at the moment in time is basically just service 362 to Chorley. This suggests it isn’t valid on non Bee Network buses in Greater Manchester although I wonder if that was actually the case.

“System One Day AnyBus” - costs £5 valid on all buses in Greater Manchester, but seemingly still issued on non franchised services, like I was on a Go North West service today.


The middle one is the complication and might become more so once cross boundary service 100 joins the Bee Network as I’d say that was a more prominent service what with it running into Manchester itself. Cross boundary 184 to Huddersfield also joins in the next tranche.

This isn’t correct - Bee Any Bus and System One Anybus are the same thing. Not sure why GNW hasn’t renamed theirs as the name changed last Sept.

Any Bus is valid on any bus in GM plus a small number cross boundary (such as 464 to Bacup and others to Derbys and Cheshire as https://systemonetravel.co.uk/journey-planner). These are largely where GM consituents use to run. (Rochdale Corp ran to Bacup for example)

Bee Bus is an odd one. It is valid on:
1) all Bee network buses including cross boundary ones
2) permit buses but not cross boundary.
This creates odd things like 481/3 accept Bee Bus to the GM boundary at Shuttleworth and Bee Any Bus to the System One boundary at Edenfield.

It really is over complex and goes against the concept of simplicity TfGM suggested franchising would deliver!

 

[Springs Branch]

I'll be visiting the Brave New World of yellow buses in the next couple of months, and - with rail strikes and electrification closures - I've resigned myself to using Greater Manchester's bus network more intensively than I'd normally prefer. So, I've recently been researching fare options for some of my likely journeys.

Normally I don't mind the mental challenge of an hour or so deciphering cryptic fare systems on British public transport. But Greater Manchester's current dog's breakfast has really done my head in.

I'm not sure whether one difference between Bee AnyBus and System One Day AnyBus tickets is that you can buy & load the first via the Bee app and load it onto the yellow Bee smartcards, whereas the System One Day AnyBus can't be bought on the Bee app and can still be loaded onto pre-existing smartcards ('Get Me There' cards??) I've not been able to confirm this because the Bee App I've downloaded onto my android phone is effectively useless.

I'm sure somewhere along the way there was a comment on a Stagecoach website that some ticket or other within GM could still be loaded onto their own branded smartcard on the bus, but if you do this you can no longer pay with contactless - you need to pay the driver cash!

I thought I'd worked it out that my trip from Bolton to Belmont and back on service 535 would need a 'Bee Bus' ticket, not a 'Bee Any Bus', since it'll be one of the yellow Bee Network buses. But having seen the System One map referenced by @Leedsbusman, maybe I can get away with a ‘Bee Any Bus’ ticket for the last mile or so outside GM in that particular case?

The other complication for me is service 125 (Bolton - Preston), which I want to use from Bolton to Adlington & back, just across the border in Lancashire. I can use a Bee Any Bus on the 125 between Bolton & Horwich, but cannot use a Bee Bus ticket for that section. Or any 'Bee' ticket between Horwich & Adlington, since that route is run by Stagecoach Lancashire, not part the Bee Network.

God knows how regular punters who ‘just need to use the bus' navigate all this.

 

[Leedsbusman]

I'll be visiting the Brave New World of yellow buses in the next couple of months, and - with rail strikes and electrification closures - I've resigned myself to using Greater Manchester's bus network more intensively than I'd normally prefer. So, I've recently been researching fare options for some of my likely journeys.

Normally I don't mind the mental challenge of an hour or so deciphering cryptic fare systems on British public transport. But Greater Manchester's current dog's breakfast has really done my head in.

I'm not sure whether one difference between Bee AnyBus and System One Day AnyBus tickets is that you can buy & load the first via the Bee app and load it onto the yellow Bee smartcards, whereas the System One Day AnyBus can't be bought on the Bee app and can still be loaded onto pre-existing smartcards ('Get Me There' cards??) I've not been able to confirm this because the Bee App I've downloaded onto my android phone is effectively useless.

I'm sure somewhere along the way there was a comment on a Stagecoach website that some ticket or other within GM could still be loaded onto their own branded smartcard on the bus, but if you do this you can no longer pay with contactless - you need to pay the driver cash!

I thought I'd worked it out that my trip from Bolton to Belmont and back on service 535 would need a 'Bee Bus' ticket, not a 'Bee Any Bus', since it'll be one of the yellow Bee Network buses. But having seen the System One map referenced by @Leedsbusman, maybe I can get away with a ‘Bee Any Bus’ ticket for the last mile or so outside GM in that particular case?

The other complication for me is service 125 (Bolton - Preston), which I want to use from Bolton to Adlington & back, just across the border in Lancashire. I can use a Bee Any Bus on the 125 between Bolton & Horwich, but cannot use a Bee Bus ticket for that section. Or any 'Bee' ticket between Horwich & Adlington, since that route is run by Stagecoach Lancashire, not part the Bee Network.

God knows how regular punters who ‘just need to use the bus' navigate all this.

Yes Belmont is in the Anybus area as it’s always been a GM area route even though it’s in Blackburn with Darwen.

125 runs under a Service Permit so a Bee Bus is valid within GM as is Any Bus. Unfortunately Adlington is outside GM and has no Anybus validity.

The Bee Any Bus and System One Any Bus are the same - it’s name changed from the latter to the former in Sept 23. The different naming of Smart tickets ended a while ago.

If you a travelling on a day ticket - buying on bus with contactless should be fine - or if you can navigate it buy on the Bee Network App.

The only need to buy the Bee Bus ticket is if you plan to go to Chorley on 362, Warrington on 100 or Huddersfield on 184 really. It will get you to Belmont too.

 

[Andyh82]

This isn’t correct - Bee Any Bus and System One Anybus are the same thing. Not sure why GNW hasn’t renamed theirs as the name changed last Sept.

They are the same, that’s what I was trying to get across in my post, but it might be called different things depending on where you buy it

Note that if you filter on Adult/day/bus only here https://www.systemonetravel.co.uk/travelcard-finder both the bee and System One versions still appear

Ideally the end solution to me would just be one day ticket that is valid on all buses in Greater Manchester and all Bee Network buses outside Greater Manchester. Any anomalies where this would end up being too generous (such as to Warrington in a time where the national £2 no longer existed) would probably be negligible on TfGM’s accounts

 

[Leedsbusman]

They are the same, that’s what I was trying to get across in my post, but it might be called different things depending on where you buy it

Note that if you filter on Adult/day/bus only here https://www.systemonetravel.co.uk/travelcard-finder both the bee and System One versions still appear

Ideally the end solution to me would just be one day ticket that is valid on all buses in Greater Manchester and all Bee Network buses outside Greater Manchester. Any anomalies where this would end up being too generous (such as to Warrington in a time where the national £2 no longer existed) would probably be negligible on TfGM’s accounts

I must be confused - you said there were three! But there are only two - Bee Any Bus and Bee Bus.

 

[jonesy3001]

I used to buy the GM wayfarer when I used to travel about greater manchester, can use it on the buses, trams and the trains.
Only £16.90.
Click on the link below for details, there's links for maps on how far you can go.

Wayfarer adult ticket

Wayfarer adult ticket

tfgm.com

 

[Buzby]

Is the Wayfarer ticket added to a Bee Network smart card, or is it a buy-on-bus and hope you don’t lose the scrap of paper for the rest of the day?

As a tourist, the ‘Bee’ website seems to only show tram travel, which is pretty limiting when the website talks of bus routes also…. The WF ticket at least has an impressive list of supported operators, which probably explains the high price!

 

[mangad]

Is the Wayfarer ticket added to a Bee Network smart card, or is it a buy-on-bus and hope you don’t lose the scrap of paper for the rest of the day?

As a tourist, the ‘Bee’ website seems to only show tram travel, which is pretty limiting when the website talks of bus routes also…. The WF ticket at least has an impressive list of supported operators, which probably explains the high price!

Can't buy Wayfarers on the bus. You can buy it at railway stations, TfGM shops or Paypoint shops. And it is a piece of paper or a rail ticket. From experience, it's not a very well known ticket, and the railway issued version doesn't particularly look like you can use it on a bus. However I've never had problems using it.

Part of the reason for price is the validity range - it's not just a Greater Manchester ticket. It goes way beyond. You can travel deep into the Peak District with it, for example. All the information (such as it is) is on the TfGM website: https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/wayfarer-adult.
If you're only travelling in the System One area, there's no point to buying a Wayfarer. But if you're travelling further afield, it can be really useful.

Not to be confused with the Derbyshire Wayfarer by the way.

The Derbyshire Wayfarer rover ticket - Derbyshire County Council

www.derbyshire.gov.uk

 

[Bungle965]

Can't buy Wayfarers on the bus. You can buy it at railway stations, TfGM shops or Paypoint shops. And it is a piece of paper or a rail ticket. From experience, it's not a very well known ticket, and the railway issued version doesn't particularly look like you can use it on a bus. However I've never had problems using it.

Part of the reason for price is the validity range - it's not just a Greater Manchester ticket. It goes way beyond. You can travel deep into the Peak District with it, for example. All the information (such as it is) is on the TfGM website: https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/wayfarer-adult.
If you're only travelling in the System One area, there's no point to buying a Wayfarer. But if you're travelling further afield, it can be really useful.

Not to be confused with the Derbyshire Wayfarer by the way.

The Derbyshire Wayfarer rover ticket - Derbyshire County Council

www.derbyshire.gov.uk

The list of bus operators could do with an update as it’s now considerably out of date!