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Ground Signals

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MadCommuter

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I've always wondered why some of the ground signals seen in sidings, stations and shunt areas have a red and white light when at danger, but others have 2 red lights. I presume the use of those colours goes back to semaphore days?

 
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GB

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Its purely down to the age of the signalling and the signalling standards they were installed to.

The red and white for "ON" is the old standard. The current standard is two whites for "OFF" and two reds for "ON".
 

Cherry_Picker

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Red and white were designed to simulate a small semaphore signal (or at least that is what they told me when I was training) and the newer red and red ones are just an improvement on that design. The brand new LED ones are a significant improvement, LED is fantastic technology in my opinion, superior in every way to bulbs.

I presume some of the reasoning would have been cost too. Back when they were first replacing semaphore discs or arms was the cost of a colour light signal more in real terms than it is today? Most of the old designs were indeed three points of a triangle, two white and one red. There are signals with four lights on them though, two whites in the "off" position that a semaphore arm would make, and two red ones in the "on" position. Does anybody know whether these were a later design or just brought in on a region where they had more money?
 

GB

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...an example of a ground signal at North Walsham with four lights (for anyone thats interested)....
 

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MadCommuter

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Probably worth mentioning that some of the "two red light" signals are limit of shunt markers too.

Thanks for all the replies. Interesting stuff. However, its brought up another question!

I often see 'OFF' on station platforms, effectively indicating a signal to proceed is showing further ahead. In this thread I notice OFF and ON being used too. Its quite odd terminology - can anyone eloborate on how it came about?
 

Hydro

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Thanks for all the replies. Interesting stuff. However, its brought up another question!

I often see 'OFF' on station platforms, effectively indicating a signal to proceed is showing further ahead. In this thread I notice OFF and ON being used too. Its quite odd terminology - can anyone eloborate on how it came about?

I heard it was to do with detonator placers in days of old. When the signal was at danger, a det was placed ON the rail via the detonator placer. When cleared, the detonator was taken OFF the rail.

Not sure how true it is, mind.
 

Welshman

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Thanks for all the replies. Interesting stuff. However, its brought up another question!

I often see 'OFF' on station platforms, effectively indicating a signal to proceed is showing further ahead. In this thread I notice OFF and ON being used too. Its quite odd terminology - can anyone eloborate on how it came about?

I thought it went back to the days of semaphore signalling. When at danger, the signal arm [board] was at 90 degrees to the track, i.e. symbolically blocking passage, therefore "on" and when at clear was at 45 or 125 degrees[depending on upper or lower quadrant] and "off"
 
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33056

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Also worth pointing out that the newer LED type must be more cost-efficient than the older type with bulbs. Have a lot of GPLs* in the area I work in and the bulbs used to fail quite frequently; havn't had a single problem since the GPLs were all replaced with the latest LED type a few years ago.

In respect of the "four aspect" GPLs, I think they were a short-lived version that were only produced for a short time before the latest type which is similar to the old type but with LEDs came along.

(* GPL = Ground Position Light)
 

ralphchadkirk

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The LED PL's I've seen are fantastic compared to the old lamp type - much brighter and clearer. Not to mention on an LED one you're not going to get failures that often.
 

Tomnick

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I thought it went back to the days of semaphore signalling. When at danger, the signal arm [board] was at 90 degrees to the track, i.e. symbolically blocking passage, therefore "on" and when at clear was at 45 or 125 degrees[depending on upper or lower quadrant] and "off"
I've heard a slightly different version of the same. The Danger indication was as you describe, but the proceed indication was given by the board physically being 'taken off' the post. Makes sense, but I don't know how true it is.
 

GB

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I've heard a slightly different version of the same. The Danger indication was as you describe, but the proceed indication was given by the board physically being 'taken off' the post. Makes sense, but I don't know how true it is.

That is the version I have heard also. Makes sense with the terms "pulled off" or "put back" etc etc
 

Tomnick

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I'd have thought that the use of the terms 'on' and 'off' would predate the use of dets at distant signals?
 

MadCommuter

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Last question...promise! With the new style that show 2 reds for ON and 2 whites for OFF, presumably one of the LEDs is multi-coloured?
 

John Webb

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The terms 'ON' and 'OFF' are directly related to the various early forms of railway signal where a horizontal board denoted 'Stop' and was actually taken off the post to denote 'Clear' - or 'Off'. However, if the wind blew the board down in the absence of the 'bobby'..........
The GWR were the first to come up with a signal with two positive indications - the board still denoted 'Stop' but above it and at right-angles to it there was a round disc denoting 'Clear'. Eventually signals developed into semaphore signals as we know them.

For those interested in signalling history try http://www.signalbox.org.

The 'OFF' indicator on platforms is for the information of the train guard and platform staff - it tells them if the signal allowing the train to depart has been cleared so that they know if it's safe to start the train on it's way. (There have been instances where a guard has given the 'Ready to depart' signal to the driver before the signal had been cleared; the driver has started off the train and run through a signal at danger. Such instances have been termed 'Ding, ding and away'!)
 

PinzaC55

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One of the main advantages of the new type is that in the old type if (when showing STOP) the red light failed then the signal would be showing a single white light which the driver might miss if he was wasn't paying attention properly. The new ones show a "positive" two reds or two whites so in theory cannot give an ambiguous indication.
From memory I think the old LNER ones used at Hull used to give a Yellow light in the stop position?
 

GB

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Yellow indications on a GPL convey specific meanings, ie you can pass it at danger for shunting purposes providing the points are set for the headshunt/siding. Whether this is the same as the old LNER ones as you put it I dont know.
 

John Webb

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But det placers were a relatively modern invention - I don't think they existed in Victorian times, when "on" and "off" were used to describe signals.

Detonators at distant signals were first placed on the line by fogmen rather than by machines, and this continued until recent times when colour light distant signals became commonplace, the 1960 Clean Air Act had helped prevent smoke making fog persist and thus fogmen were no longer needed. Machines were made available to assist the placing of detonators on the track, but my source does not give dates. They were of particular use in complex trackwork areas where minature repeaters allowed a single fogman to cover several signals, reducing the costs to the railway companies.

The detonator (Fog Signal in today's parlance to avoid disturbing people!) was invented in 1841. (Information in "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" by Simmons and Biddle.)
 

blue sabre

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I'm sure I read somewhere that there was a move away from a red and white to proceed to double white as it was seen as bad practice to proceed on a red. Whether this is correct or not I have no idea!
 

33056

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I'm sure I read somewhere that there was a move away from a red and white to proceed to double white as it was seen as bad practice to proceed on a red. Whether this is correct or not I have no idea!
:-?:-?

Don't you mean red and white to stop being replaced by double red? Proceed has always been two whites.
 
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