Group Saver query

[typeo]

Hi,

I've been to my local ticket office to purchase 3 tickets from Thatcham to Birmingham New Street. The person serving said the best option was a group saver ticket at around £87 for the three tickets. This route involves getting a Cross Country train from Reading. When we did this route a couple of years back we were told that the tickets weren't valid on the train and were nearly forced off en-route until the ticket inspector had a change of heart.

I queried this with the ticket office today and the person serving assured me the tickets are valid. The tickets show nothing on them to show they aren't valid, they do say just under the Route section "Oxford". Would anyone know if these are defintely valid? Could do without being turfed off the train!

Thanks

 

[clagmonster]

Please could you provide more information on what is printed on the ticket, namely the ticket type and also whether the code GS3, or similar, is printed on the ticket. Someone should then be able to work out whether your ticket is valid.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, please provide more information.

I suspect this is going to be another topic about GroupSave...

I am certain that XC are in breach of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement if they threaten to chuck passengers off the train or charge them if they hold a ticket that has no indication whatsoever that it may not be valid on XC. (If they wish to charge FGW then that's fine by me; it's an internal railway matter as far as I am concerned)

 

[Ferret]

Hi,

I've been to my local ticket office to purchase 3 tickets from Thatcham to Birmingham New Street. The person serving said the best option was a group saver ticket at around £87 for the three tickets. This route involves getting a Cross Country train from Reading. When we did this route a couple of years back we were told that the tickets weren't valid on the train and were nearly forced off en-route until the ticket inspector had a change of heart.

I queried this with the ticket office today and the person serving assured me the tickets are valid. The tickets show nothing on them to show they aren't valid, they do say just under the Route section "Oxford". Would anyone know if these are defintely valid? Could do without being turfed off the train!

Thanks

No they are not valid on XC services. Quite why Thatcham tickets office staff think they are is beyond me! Have you already purchased the tickets? If so, did Thatcham station provide a journey itinerary? If they have, and the Train Manager says anything to you (they should question it), ask them to report it via the TIR Process. The Guard should give you a free zero fare excess, relieve you of the Groupsave tickets/printed itinerary, and then fill out a report from XC to investigate. This should lead to Thatcham's ticket office receiving a monumental rollocking for incorrectly retailing the tickets.

 

[clagmonster]

Ferret, I was waiting for confirmation that they actually are Groupsave before saying that. Is it possible that the tickets are XC small group advance or whatever said product is called.

 

[Ferret]

Ferret, I was waiting for confirmation that they actually are Groupsave before saying that. Is it possible that the tickets are XC small group advance or whatever said product is called.

Apparently the XC smallgroup/minigroup fare no longer exists, and how would an XC only ticket be valid from Thatcham?

Of course, it is possible to legitimately use a Groupsave between Reading and Birmingham - FGW to Banbury, changing there for a Chiltern to Moor Street.

 

[clagmonster]

So much for a revolutionary new ticket type then. I didn't realise they were all XC only, I thought that perhaps there would be a XC & Connections variety.
They say you learn something every day, today I've learnt two things just from you Ferret. Thanks for the gen.

I'll wait for confirmation on what the ticket actually is before commenting on Groupsave matters.

 

[typeo]

Hi,

Here are the details printed on the tickets:

Class: STD
Ticket type: Off-Peak R
Adult: One
GPS-3
From: Thatcham
To: Birmingham Stations
Route: Oxford
Validity: As advertised
2-Part Return

I can post a picture if needed.

Thanks for the info so far.

 

[Matt Taylor]

They are Group Save tickets and will not be valid on XC trains.

 

[mumrar]

What he said - you'll either have to excess your tickets, ideally before travel, or travel with Chiltern.

 

[clagmonster]

I quite agree. My opinion, based on this post: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=510827&postcount=49 by Hairy handed fool.
In order to use this ticket, you would have to travel using Great Western and Chiltern services only. However, I believe that the Great Western staff at Thatcham were in breech of the conditions of carriage on two counts by selling you this ticket.
Firstly, they are in breach of condition 1 by not making the restriction clear to you, in fact they did the exact opposite.
Secondly, they are in breach of condition 10 because the operator restrictions are not shown on the ticket.

The conditions of carriage are available here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
They are also available from any staffed station.

 

[yorkie]

typeo - Get the ticket issuer to print you an itinerary (preferably get seat reservations).

If any guard does not like the tickets, then, as Ferret says, " If they have, and the Train Manager says anything to you (they should question it), ask them to report it via the TIR Process. The Guard should give you a free zero fare excess, relieve you of the Groupsave tickets/printed itinerary, and then fill out a report from XC to investigate."

It's not your problem. It's an internal railway problem.

If asked to pay a fare, then say that you shouldn't have to as the TIR Process should be followed instead. If the guard insists you pay a fare, then do not hand over any money, give your name & address for an Unpaid Fare Notice to be issued. You can then appeal the UPFN (ask us for advice, I am happy to advise on this and have successfully prevented UPFNs having to be paid previously), a complaint can be made later (and if anyone acts rudely or unfairly, do not be rude back but ensure their names are taken for a complaint to be made). If a UPFN is issued, no need to ask for the guards name as this should appear on the UPFN.

I believe that if XC issue a UPFN rather than follow the TIR process they may be in breach of their obligation to accept tickets under the ticketing & settlement agreement. As members of Rail Settlement Plan (RSP) they are obliged to accept all tickets labelled Any Permitted on any permitted route, and if they have not received revenue for that ticket, they can persue the operator(s) who missold the ticket and/or who are receiving revenue, it is not the customers problem.

 

[clagmonster]

Yorkie, I quite agree. I would say that if the guard completes a TIR, ask him to include the points about the breach of conditions 1 and 10 which I have made in my post. I would advise to do similar if your are appealing an UPFN.

 

[Ferret]

Yorkie, I quite agree. I would say that if the guard completes a TIR, ask him to include the points about the breach of conditions 1 and 10 which I have made in my post. I would advise to do similar if your are appealing an UPFN.

We've already covered this - condition 10 isn't relevant.

Condition 1 is though; and I quite agree with Yorkie that it's a matter for XC to sort out with FGW. It appears that Thatcham's ticket office staff have difficulty following a simple instruction. Maybe a few bills from XC will focus the mind a little more.......

 

[clagmonster]

Ferret, please could you explain how condition 10 is not relevent. I understand that condition 12 applies, and allows tickets to be barred from certain trains, which I can see could be taken to mean all trains operated by certain companies, but how does it relieve companies of the requirement to show operator restrictions on tickets, as required by condition 10?
I do agree though that the issue of groupsave tickets being missold does need sorting out, and I would say that the promotional material needs making clearer as well as the booking offices being more stringent.

 

[MikeWh]

In my opinion this is the exact reason why the restriction Not XC MUST be printed on the ticket. A passenger has gone to a ticket office and asked for three ordinary tickets. The clerk has sold them discounted tickets instead. Is the passenger expected to guess that there might be a leaflet about this product that they ought to read? Or, to put it another way, what would you expect the reaction to be if I asked for a leaflet about anytime day tickets next time I book at Crayford. I could say that the NRCoC mentions that literature might impose additional restrictions. I'd guess I could be laughed at.

 

[mumrar]

So, should all Off-Peak tickets travelling via the WCML with a 16-25 Railcard discount be printed with 'Not valid before xx.xx Mon-Fri except on Virgin Trains who have waived the restriction'? The ticket is not prohibited from XC services, it is the discount which is prohibited. The fault is with the agent who sold the ticket, and that's why the ticket should be withdrawn and investigated and reported via the TIR process.

 

[MikeWh]

So, should all Off-Peak tickets travelling via the WCML with a 16-25 Railcard discount be printed with 'Not valid before xx:xx Mon-Fri except on Virgin Trains who have waived the restriction'? The ticket is not prohibited from XC services, it is the discount which is prohibited. The fault is with the agent who sold the ticket, and that's why the ticket should be withdrawn and investigated and reported via the TIR process.

If you have a 16-25 Railcard then surely you also have the leaflet which explains the restrictions. Groupsave is a per-journey discount rather than an annual card.

 

[clagmonster]

In your West Coast example, no, the restriction does not have to be printed on the ticket because the conditions of carriage do not require time restrictions, or relaxations of time restrictions, to be printed on the ticket.

The ticket has had a discount applied to it, therefore by applying the discount we must thereby apply the restriction to the ticket, therefore making this an operator restricted ticket, therefore meaning that the ticket issuing company must comply with condition 10 and show the restriction on the ticket.

Mike, in addition to the operator restriction being printed on the ticket, the booking clerk should also explain any restrictions to the passenger. This is contained in condition 1 of the conditions of carriage.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

In my opinion this is the exact reason why the restriction Not XC MUST be printed on the ticket.

I agree, and by your emphasis on "MUST" I assume that you mean XC should take prompt action to ensure that the restriction is printed on the ticket as soon as possible.

In your West Coast example, no, the restriction does not have to be printed on the ticket because the conditions of carriage do not require time restrictions, or relaxations of time restrictions, to be printed on the ticket.

The ticket has had a discount applied to it, therefore by applying the discount we must thereby apply the restriction to the ticket, therefore making this an operator restricted ticket, therefore meaning that the ticket issuing company must comply with condition 10 and show the restriction on the ticket.

That is a good summary of the distinction between the special restriction of the Groupsave discount on XC and most other ticket types and restrictions.

Mike, in addition to the operator restriction being printed on the ticket, the booking clerk should also explain any restrictions to the passenger. This is contained in condition 1 of the conditions of carriage.

Again, I agree. In this case it is an urgent need to provide adequate training and advice to retail staff.

 

[clagmonster]

Dave, as far as I can see, Cross Country have nothing to do with Group Save discounted tickets other than chasing up other companies for incorrectly issuing them. The responsibility lies with issuing offices and the companies responsible for managing the Groupsave discount.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Dave, as far as I can see, Cross Country have nothing to do with Group Save discounted tickets other than chasing up other companies for incorrectly issuing them. The responsibility lies with issuing offices and the companies responsible for managing the Groupsave discount.

Yes, I understand that. But the "chasing up other companies" is something which they, XC, are going to have to do (whether the situation was of their making or not), to avoid the very unsatisfactory situation we have at present, for the sake of their own staff as well as passengers (and described by the OP).

Though having said that, I expect that perhaps the administation of XC's "chasing up other companies" is something that could be managed by ATOC, their mutual umbrella organisation?

 

[mumrar]

The ticket has had a discount applied to it, therefore by applying the discount we must thereby apply the restriction to the ticket, therefore making this an operator restricted ticket, therefore meaning that the ticket issuing company must comply with condition 10 and show the restriction on the ticket.

XC aren't the ticket issuing company, as they can't be responsible for issuing a contract that prohibits the use of their services in their entirety. It is the fault of the issuing company and/or their employees for not complying with the condition below

the booking clerk should also explain any restrictions to the passenger. This is contained in condition 1 of the conditions of carriage.

 

[MikeWh]

The ticket has had a discount applied to it, therefore by applying the discount we must thereby apply the restriction to the ticket, therefore making this an operator restricted ticket, therefore meaning that the ticket issuing company must comply with condition 10 and show the restriction on the ticket.

XC aren't the ticket issuing company, as they can't be responsible for issuing a contract that prohibits the use of their services in their entirety. It is the fault of the issuing company and/or their employees for not complying with the condition below

clagmonster didn't say XC were the ticket issuing company, just that the company which is should put the restriction on the ticket. It's not as if the letters "Not XC" will take up a huge amount of room.

 

[yorkie]

mumrar - if you come across someone using GroupSave on XC unaware that XC don't accept them, would you carry out what I believe is the correct procedure described by ferret, leading the issuing company to be charged, or would you declare the customer at fault and request a fare from the customer?

If you believe the former, then I (and, probably others) am not in dispute with you in that respect, and we are only arguing over semantics, blame etc.

As it happens ferret and I agree on a correct course of action by XC guards, and for the passenger that is the biggest concern. What happens between the TOCs, which may be of interest to us, is of little or no concern to a regular passenger.

National Rail is described as "Britain's train companies working together" if some companies choose not to work together, by not accepting a common product, that company is choosing to make things difficult for themselves. They need to decide if it is practicable for them to make that decision in a way that doesn't lose them revenue while honouring tickets in accordance with the NCoC. If XC choose not to charge any customers on GroupSave but instead charge FGW or whoever, then I have no problem with that. The problem is that some XC guards act correctly in the way that ferret does, and some do not as described by embers25 on the train between Birmingham & Reading. That is a major concern to me.

I think we have some good material for Watchdog here. Any volunteers to be on TV?

 

[mumrar]

It's not as if the letters "Not XC" will take up a huge amount of room.

And it's not as if the majority of passengers still won't see it, claim to be unaware, and play as clueless as possible. It reminds me of an instant recently with a passenger missing their train under the leaf fall on the X-City line. They were late to the station as the Redditch train leaves 10 minutes earlier. Upon complaining within earshot of me, I said "They have had posters up for a month until it started" - "Well, I didn't see any" - "They can print them, but as yet have no powers to force you to read them"

Yorkie - Me and Ferret have discussed this at length and we both agree on the course of action with regards to TIR. The problem is this deprives you of a lot of time to carry out a ticket check throughout the rest of the train, so it's not as win/win as it may appear (being as my bogcarts stop more frequently than Ferret's LOL)

 

[yorkie]

And it's not as if the majority of passengers still won't see it, claim to be unaware, and play as clueless as possible.

I understand your concern however, it does make it enforceable (whether customers like it or not) and if someone comes on here complaining they were charged for being on an XC train on a ticket that is marked "Not XC" believe me, we will (politely I hope!) back you and your colleagues up. I know that some people don't always adhere to conditions on the ticket, but most people will do and those who don't will find it much harder to argue against.

Yorkie - Me and Ferret have discussed this at length and we both agree on the course of action with regards to TIR. The problem is this deprives you of a lot of time to carry out a ticket check throughout the rest of the train, so it's not as win/win as it may appear (being as my bogcarts stop more frequently than Ferret's LOL)

That's fine, I have no problem with that.

I have sympathy with your situation in that it takes time, I believe XC need to re-consider the revenue aspect. By not accepting these tickets, they are declining some ORCATS revenue. Presumably they believe that is offset by the increased revenue from chasing up the likes of FGW (and any other applicable TOCs such as NXEA etc) for compensation, and by some people choosing to pay for higher priced non-discounted tickets, however if they are causing guards to spend a lot of additional time faffing about, then they are not considering the income lost in you not being able to sell tickets, particularly on your route with frequent stops. Are managers aware of this, and has it been fed through to those who make key decisions regarding ticket acceptance?

I can fully understand XC choosing not to offer a GroupSave discount on fares they set the fare for, but I believe that if they accepted GroupSave tickets on flows set by other TOCs on valid routes, they may find that overall revenue increases due to the above reasons.

I would have a lot of sympathy for XC if they assured us that they have requested ATOC change the routeing to "Not XC" and that such routeing will be applied shortly and that they intend to ensure all guards carry out the correct procedure rather than charging customers. It is possible XC have done these, but there is no evidence (yet) that they have...

 

[Ferret]

With regards to TIRs, it should take all of 2 mins at the time to get basic details from the customer, print out a ZF excess and withdraw the originals. The real time-eating part is when you come to write the report Still, it's part of my job and there are times when it needs to be done!

 

[clagmonster]

Mumrar, I think you may have misunderstood me somewhere. I do not intend to lay any blame at the door of Cross Country with regards the issuing of Group Save tickets, they only have to deal with the consequences if/when other companies do it incorrectly.

I also quite agree that if the tickets had the operation restrictions/prohibitions printed on them then there would still be some passengers attempting to use them on Cross Country trains, but I would suspect that there would be less of them and it would presumably be a case of a condition 10/condition 2 new full fare ticket or an UPFN, which would presumably be easier in most cases for you to process.

I should point out that I am glad that both Mumrar and Ferret deal with these issues in a way which will cause passengers the least amount of hassle, hopefully the rest of the Cross Country guards are doing the same thing. I do feel that you shouldn't have to be doing it though, as it must take time away from dealing with other issues.

I think that we may finally be close to actually agreeing on this issue.

 

[typeo]

Hi,

I took the tickets back in the end and have got a refund on them. Luckily I managed to get some Advance tickets which were only £5 more.

Thanks for your assistance.