Exactly, by the time you have put on the required number of parking brakes, shut down etc, you might as well leave it running as the next guy will be turning up and be wanting to unscrew it at the same time.
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Gsm-r sg button
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fairysdad
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Could somebody explain to a layman what the SG button actually is please? All I can really gather from this thread is that it's a button a driver may or may not press while at a red signal which alerts the signalbox to their presence, but no real explanation as to what it is and why it might be used.
Sunset route
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It saves the need for the driver to instigate voice communication over the radio when they need to remind the signaller of the presence of their train at a signal held at danger.
Which is exactly what it is, what it does, and when its used.
Is there something else you needed to understand ?
The rulebook requires a driver stopped at a signal at danger to alert the signaller to the train’s presence. The SG button does this in a single press and avoids voice communication needing to be initiated.
I suppose to be fair to the layman , we don't really know it's use. It's a button we press that generates an automatic wait message . Quite possibly the indication at the box end might wake the signaller up , or disturb their tea break.
That I understand, it is the freight that routinely press SG when the get to a location they are booked to wait at for 90 mins, by all means maybe 3 or 4 mins beofore departrure time, that is welcomed
ECS of course ad-hoc have such rubbish timimgs, then you would not know if you were overlooked, or waiting for a reason.No, it is mainly in the down direction to the Port
we do get SG on the Up, but not as often, and sometimes that is where we need it ! overlook a freight there, and it could cause a big delay elsewhere !In the box in comes up Headode and simply "Waiting Signal" and thats it.
Y Ddraig Coch
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That I understand, it is the freight that routinely press SG when the get to a location they are booked to wait at for 90 mins, by all means maybe 3 or 4 mins beofore departrure time, that is welcomed
No, it is mainly in the down direction to the Port
Would frieght drivers booked to wait 90minutes not press it on arrival just so the signaller know they are there and maybe able to clear them a path due to circumstances that mean they don't have to sit for 90mins?
There is rarely a path to Felixstowe early, once in a while maybe if there is a late runner, or a cancellation, but then the SSM & Signaller will have already worked that one out, and either just given greens all the way, or called the Driver to check he was OK to run down early, not that we have ever had one say "no" yet
Once when I've sat at a booked timing point, having very unusually been allowed to continue to run about 150 miles quite early, and phoned the signaller up to ask that he doesn't give me the road early as a problem had developed that I intended to work through while standing out of the way.
The response I got was "oh I'd never let you out early for two reasons, one you have to be behind the correct cross country, and that one just going in front is the one before the one you have to follow, and two, I thought this was your PNB".
Ok, thanks signaller I replied, without wishing to discuss those points. It's not surprising that without the old mutual appreciation days any more that so much misunderstanding of the actual day to day jobs occurs from both sides.
The response I got was "oh I'd never let you out early for two reasons, one you have to be behind the correct cross country, and that one just going in front is the one before the one you have to follow, and two, I thought this was your PNB".
Ok, thanks signaller I replied, without wishing to discuss those points. It's not surprising that without the old mutual appreciation days any more that so much misunderstanding of the actual day to day jobs occurs from both sides.
As I understand it, the SG button has another subtle twist. Except when urgent, the signaller is not supposed to make a voice call to me any time I might be moving because it might distract me; but when I press the SG button I have implicitly given him/her permission to call me as I am at a stand. Thus we are not supposed to press the SG button while moving.
I've always thought we should have a second button "Delay Avoidance - DA" to say "get a move on or that red I can see in the distance is going to cause us both delay minutes". For instance heading from Southwick towards Portslade without stopping at Fishersgate I will often approach on greens with one decelleration from near line speed. But I can often see a yellow before Fishersgate, a red after that protecting the level crossing before the Portslade, then Portslade platform, and then finally a green on the end of the platform. In this case I must lose 2 or 3 minutes making an appropriately conservative approach to the red, pressing SG, waiting for the barriers then the route, accellerating, and then decellerating again. The driver's rule for DA would be "press this button if it will usefully alert the signaller to an avoidable delay AND you are moving AND it will not distract you to do so". The rule for the signaller would be that the DA text message is for his aid in avoiding delays and can be responded to either by clearing a route if safe to do so, by responding with a "Contact Signaller" text message, or by ignoring it and waiting for the driver to press SG.
I've always thought we should have a second button "Delay Avoidance - DA" to say "get a move on or that red I can see in the distance is going to cause us both delay minutes". For instance heading from Southwick towards Portslade without stopping at Fishersgate I will often approach on greens with one decelleration from near line speed. But I can often see a yellow before Fishersgate, a red after that protecting the level crossing before the Portslade, then Portslade platform, and then finally a green on the end of the platform. In this case I must lose 2 or 3 minutes making an appropriately conservative approach to the red, pressing SG, waiting for the barriers then the route, accellerating, and then decellerating again. The driver's rule for DA would be "press this button if it will usefully alert the signaller to an avoidable delay AND you are moving AND it will not distract you to do so". The rule for the signaller would be that the DA text message is for his aid in avoiding delays and can be responded to either by clearing a route if safe to do so, by responding with a "Contact Signaller" text message, or by ignoring it and waiting for the driver to press SG.
bengley
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A good idea, Dave, I agree. However, it would cost billions of pounds to implement because no buttons on the GSM-R are available to send other messages. They should have designed it with a few spare buttons.
choochoochoo
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They could re-program the 'T' button. (Test button for lay-folk)
I know I'll be suitably corrected by those far wiser than me, but seems like a redundant feature on a device that auto-tests on start-up. Anytime I've had a fault with GSM-R, Fleet/Maintenance Control have had me pull circuit breakers to reset it, so it'll test itself again after it re-boots.
Although even reprogramming a button would still be cost prohibitive.
It tests on startup so I'm not sure of the wisdom of removing a function that would then require it to be rebooted every time. There are a few functions in the menu and I'm sure a few buttons could be relegated to just being menu driven. The GSMR auto dims too and tbh I can't remember when I last used the brightness function or even the volume button so there are 4 buttons that can also be freed up (from my perspective).
choochoochoo
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The point I was trying to make was that at no point has fleet/maintenance control asked me to press the test button. The first step in fault fixing would be a circuit breaker reset. After which it tests itself.
Brightness buttons do seem pointless. I like the volume buttons though. So I can up the volume to hear the alert/ring whilst standing on the platform if I'm stuck on a red. But have it reasonably quiet so it's not annoying when you lose signal.
If reprogramming is an option surely you make it so that pressing the SG button on impulse will do as 'DaveTM' suggests and holding it down for certain amount of time will command what is now the normal function of the SG button.
...in the same way that the registration button switches the unit on when held down in unoccupied cabs.
...in the same way that the registration button switches the unit on when held down in unoccupied cabs.
bengley
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I use the brightness buttons every time I get in a cab. Minimum brightness at night and maximum in the day. I use the volume buttons less frequently.
I'd agree with the test button being reprogrammed. Even on prep I don't ever press it.
I'd agree with the test button being reprogrammed. Even on prep I don't ever press it.
WestRiding
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We never used to hear from drivers when it was raining, and they had to climb down to the SPT. Now its a constant barrage of drivers pressing the button within seconds of arriving at a signal. SG Button = Less likely to get away early 
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If it is part of a prep then surely you should be pressing it, that’s what it’s there for?
bengley
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It isn't.
The GSM-R self tests and says 'Test OK' when it's switched on. But thanks for giving me advice on how to do my job!
bengley
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Aye, I've used 1900 before when checking whether the speaker/handset is working properly.
If we can have "wait" and "Contact signaller" messages sent to us, surely it wouldn't take much effort for a couple of more presets to be in the system that would give drivers a better idea of what's going on instead of just "wait". Such as:
Wait: Congestion in area
Wait: Dealing with incident on another train
Wait: Please await signal clearance
We can't always see as drivers what's going on ahead or around us, and a little bit more information will stop us calling up after 5 minutes. We have one signal box on our route that really hates to use the broadcast message feature for when there's issues, but will happily use it to tell us the Jubilee line is down.
Wait: Congestion in area
Wait: Dealing with incident on another train
Wait: Please await signal clearance
We can't always see as drivers what's going on ahead or around us, and a little bit more information will stop us calling up after 5 minutes. We have one signal box on our route that really hates to use the broadcast message feature for when there's issues, but will happily use it to tell us the Jubilee line is down.
Ashley Hill
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I asked one of our senior managers about this when I learnt GSM-R. I was told I was expecting too much from the system!
One can still wish
No I wasn’t hence the question mark!
Chill out a bit mate
O L Leigh
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Not on the traction I sign. It will only self-test if you trip and reset the breaker, otherwise you get no self-test.
bengley
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When you aux/batts on the unit from dead?
O L Leigh
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We don't need to do that on prep. The batteries are still on, so it's just a case of keying in, firing up the engines and then starting prep.
I presume that the GSM-R (on our units at least) is wired into a circuit that is always live irrespective of the status of the desk but that it only comes on when the desk is keyed-in, probably so that it can be used in any cab by the guard in the event of an emergency. So as a consequence, we have to test each set on prep.
I presume that the GSM-R (on our units at least) is wired into a circuit that is always live irrespective of the status of the desk but that it only comes on when the desk is keyed-in, probably so that it can be used in any cab by the guard in the event of an emergency. So as a consequence, we have to test each set on prep.
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