Gsm-r

[Smudger105e]

GSM-R radio equipment will be live across the network by 2015, some Companies are aiming for full implementation before that, DBS, for example, are aiming for the end of 2012 to be fully operative.

A poster has been put up at our location warning about the dangers of the 'Red Button'. If pressed it will apparently initiate an emergency call to the signaller and will stop all trains in the location, leading to service disruption.

Some of our maintenance documentation also states that a DSD application will also broadcast a message to the signaller, so GSM-R will have to be isolated before undertaking any sort of brake testing by maintenance staffs. Will this include other DSD applications, as locos such as the 66s give DSD penalty brake applications for a number of reasons, e.g. if the reverser is centralised when the vehicle is still in motion?

How many cock-ups will there be before it becomes standard to isolated the GSM-R radio as a vehicle arrives at a maintenance location?

 

[es373]

I think it will only stop trains in the area at signallers request mate. We already have them installed on the fleet but not used in UK.

 

[E&W Lucas]

There's moves afoot to fit some sort of cover over the Red Button to make accidental operation far more unlikely. To correct the inaccurate answer above, it does stop everything in the area, without reference to the signaler. Upon receipt of the STOP message, after doing the obvious, you have to contact the box, before you can move.

There is a considerable delay between the DSD activating, and the message to the box actually being sent, and you have the opportunity to cancel it. Prep with GSMR live isn't a problem. I suspect that whoever wrote your notice, isn't trained on it themselves yet!

 

[es373]

There's moves afoot to fit some sort of cover over the Red Button to make accidental operation far more unlikely. To correct the inaccurate answer above, it does stop everything in the area, without reference to the signaler. Upon receipt of the STOP message, after doing the obvious, you have to contact the box, before you can move.

There is a considerable delay between the DSD activating, and the message to the box actually being sent, and you have the opportunity to cancel it. Prep with GSMR live isn't a problem. I suspect that whoever wrote your notice, isn't trained on it themselves yet!

"I think" being the operative phrase.

 

[Skoodle]

Pressing the red emergency button will send a stop message to all trains in your cell, plus one either side, so three in total. That can be a rediculously large area!

The DSD message is the same sent out on CSR.

 

[driver9000]

I am told the DSD alarm can be cancelled if it is dropped accidentally. The radio will show the message "preparing DSD alarm" to give the Driver chance to stop it being sent.

 

[Smudger105e]

I think it will only stop trains in the area at signallers request mate. We already have them installed on the fleet but not used in UK.

it is an official Newtwork Rail RSSB and about 3 other organisations on the bottom (will check when I get to work tonight). It is automatic, it says so. The DSD thing I understand does give 30 seconds, you can cancel by pressing the X button.

As it stops 'all trains in the area' can you imagine if someone pushes one at Clapham Junction?

 

[es373]

I assume it will be used for fatalities, collisions and such the like.

 

[shedman]

Last night I keyed into a HST then climbed down to ring out while it was creating a brake. When I got back into the cab it was warbling at me saying it was 'preparing DSD alarm' even though it was sat in engine only! Quick press of the 'X' button sorted it out but left me wondering just how long it had been going off and what if I was longer!

 

[Smudger105e]

Here is the full wording of the poster in the office here, poster is A0 size..

CAUTION maintainers, cleaners and train crew

Treat Red Button as LIVE at all times

Accidentally pressing the GSM-R Red Button will initiate an Emergency call to the Signaller and will stop all trains in the area leading to service disruption.

STOP EMERGENCY

BE AWARE and TAKE CARE WHEN WORKING IN DRIVING CABS (all calls are recorded and traceable - If it happens then speak to the Signaller

Netwrork Rail, GSMR, RSSB, ATOC

www.gsmronline.com

All capitalisations are theirs not mine.

 

[captainbigun]

GSM-R is going live by area, the NRN frequencies have been sold to our european chums for TV.

The first cut off is next year (though I can't recall the exact date).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Something I probably should know, but dont so I might as well ask here, but how is this different to the GSM-R/IVRS mobile handsets which have been used in the Birmingham area for several years now? Are they just a trial until the system goes national and the equipment gets fitted in cabs?

 

[Nym]

Here is the full wording of the poster in the office here, poster is A0 size..

CAUTION maintainers, cleaners and train crew

Treat Red Button as LIVE at all times

Accidentally pressing the GSM-R Red Button will initiate an Emergency call to the Signaller and will stop all trains in the area leading to service disruption.

STOP EMERGENCY

BE AWARE and TAKE CARE WHEN WORKING IN DRIVING CABS (all calls are recorded and traceable - If it happens then speak to the Signaller

Netwrork Rail, GSMR, RSSB, ATOC

www.gsmronline.com

All capitalisations are theirs not mine.

This isn't at all going to tempt me to see if I can hit the red button with a slingshot through the window of a unit parked up in Piccadilly in rush hour, for giggles at all...

That would be naughty...

But how long before somone does think it's funny?

 

[Maxfly]

Something I probably should know, but dont so I might as well ask here, but how is this different to the GSM-R/IVRS mobile handsets which have been used in the Birmingham area for several years now? Are they just a trial until the system goes national and the equipment gets fitted in cabs?

Sounds like they were part of the trial, we had GSM-R round strathclyde for at least 3 years as part of the trial, made a whore a difference, brilliant system and saved a heck of a lot of time and hassle when a coo decided it wanted to check out the underside of a 156 near stewarton lol

 

[nr_signaller]

I believe whilst on trial in scotland a train cleaner accidently pressed the emergency group call button on a train in a depot, hence the poster that is on display.

Virgin have gsmr on their fleet for wcml south

 

[Maxfly]

I believe whilst on trial in scotland a train cleaner accidently pressed the emergency group call button on a train in a depot, hence the poster that is on display.

Virgin have gsmr on their fleet for wcml south

Has been done several times by mistake, at least into double figures by my reckoning

 

[sbt]

Has been done several times by mistake, at least into double figures by my reckoning

This was very common in the early days of Digital Selective Calling on Maritime VHF, which introduced an automatic distress call system. There are probably lessons to be learnt by the Rail Industry from that. Most current systems require things like two-button operation or have a flip-up cover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Selective_Calling

 

[jopsuk]

Surely what's needed is a cover that can be fully retacted when the train is in service (perhaps, HAS to be) but can be put in place when the train is on depot/has the "not to be moved" signs on in a station etc? So that it is accesible without any impediment to the driver, but won't be sat on by the cleaner.

 

[Hydro]

Last night I keyed into a HST then climbed down to ring out while it was creating a brake. When I got back into the cab it was warbling at me saying it was 'preparing DSD alarm' even though it was sat in engine only! Quick press of the 'X' button sorted it out but left me wondering just how long it had been going off and what if I was longer!

It'll be fun with Vigilance/DSD faults. One of our DBSO's is being a bit quirky and keeping Vigilance active with the master controller off, so when it's trailing after changing ends it keeps triggering an emergency brake application every time the Vigilance activates and goes unacknowledged. Now that happening and stopping all traffic in the area?

 

[The_Stig]

Gsm-r is live in Scotland and has been for some time. The radio itself is not isolated at present as it is tested during exams. All staff have been briefed on the red button and some don't like pressing it even as part of the red button test.

 

[es373]

I wonder if a test function will be introduced for exam work in depots so if the button is pressed while carrying out tests on radios the area won't be forced to stop?

 

[shedman]

I've heard they are looking at a hinged cover to go over the red button, similar to what covers the uncouple button on units.

 

[Paul180]

I wonder if a test function will be introduced for exam work in depots so if the button is pressed while carrying out tests on radios the area won't be forced to stop?

There is already maintenance test function were you can disable the Vigilance/DSD for one test at a time.

I have heard that about 50% of emergency broadcast are non emergency, ie maintenance staff activating the Vigilance/DSD without doing a test disable first or cleaners knock it and people pushing the red button thinking it will be fun
and not realising what the consequences are and running off.

 

[sbt]

A problem that arises if the Red Button is disabled when fitters are aboard is that they would be unable to use it in the event that they notice, or something happens to create, a risk to traffic. Or will/would fitters be equipped with a GSM-R portable of their own?

 

[Skoodle]

There are a number of maintenance tests. The "Red Button" and "Yellow Button" tests allow you to test the emergency and urgent buttons without activating the actual alarms. After selecting the tests, you have 30 seconds to press the button, and according to the manual if you press it after 30 seconds, or press it twice in succession in the test, it will activate the real alarm.

 

[es373]

Ah I see...

See we have this huge test box from Bosch, you plug a bunch of wires in to it and perform all radio tests with it including the alarm. The box tests call quality etc.

The test box is pretty much a signalling control room but in the cab lol

 

[68000]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread. There are currently trials taking place to put a flap or a deeper shroud around the red button. The red button itself already has a shroud and has been designed not to activate if someone brushes off it so all the button presses thus far will be someone positively pressing it.

RSSB are also looking at possible rule changes which might mean trains do not need to stop but listen in and the driver decides the appropriate action. This is similar to what the Europeans use.

I know of at least one incident of a train hitting cattle on the G&SW which would have been avoided if all the Class 156s are fitted with GSM-R and the driver used the red button

 

[Maxfly]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread. There are currently trials taking place to put a flap or a deeper shroud around the red button. The red button itself already has a shroud and has been designed not to activate if someone brushes off it so all the button presses thus far will be someone positively pressing it.

RSSB are also looking at possible rule changes which might mean trains do not need to stop but listen in and the driver decides the appropriate action. This is similar to what the Europeans use.

I know of at least one incident of a train hitting cattle on the G&SW which would have been avoided if all the Class 156s are fitted with GSM-R and the driver used the red button

Which incident was that? They are often round Stewarton and the one i remember the driver did use the red button but it was too late as the other train came round the corner and skelped 2 iirc, with one getting a tad jammed under the leading set. It was a PITA with there being quite a few sets without GSM-R fitted as 8 times out of 10 if your were needing to get a driver pronto they were in a set that was not fitted

 

[TDK]

GSM-R radio equipment will be live across the network by 2015, some Companies are aiming for full implementation before that, DBS, for example, are aiming for the end of 2012 to be fully operative.

Some of our maintenance documentation also states that a DSD application will also broadcast a message to the signaller, so GSM-R will have to be isolated before undertaking any sort of brake testing by maintenance staffs. Will this include other DSD applications, as locos such as the 66s give DSD penalty brake applications for a number of reasons, e.g. if the reverser is centralised when the vehicle is still in motion?

How many cock-ups will there be before it becomes standard to isolated the GSM-R radio as a vehicle arrives at a maintenance location?

You may find that there is a timer on the DSD application signal sent from the GSM-R of 1 minute I believe so carrying out a DSD test will not be a problem on prep or with other DSD related EBA's as long as the DSD is cancelled within 1 minute
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely what's needed is a cover that can be fully retacted when the train is in service (perhaps, HAS to be) but can be put in place when the train is on depot/has the "not to be moved" signs on in a station etc? So that it is accesible without any impediment to the driver, but won't be sat on by the cleaner.

You do not push the red emergency button by accident as it has to be held in for 2 - 3 seconds, I reckon the cleaner was experimenting with the interface to be honest

 

[68000]

Which incident was that? They are often round Stewarton and the one i remember the driver did use the red button but it was too late as the other train came round the corner and skelped 2 iirc, with one getting a tad jammed under the leading set. It was a PITA with there being quite a few sets without GSM-R fitted as 8 times out of 10 if your were needing to get a driver pronto they were in a set that was not fitted

I need to double check although that I think was in the vicinity of Stewarton so maybe I am referring to the same incident and the emergency was used!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You do not push the red emergency button by accident as it has to be held in for 2 - 3 seconds, I reckon the cleaner was experimenting with the interface to be honest

The emergency sets up as the button is pressed although it has a shroud that prevents it being pressed due to brushing.

Generally, the drivers key needs to be in as well