GTR attempting to charge passengers extra due to timetable change (services switching route brand)

[Minstral25]

Many Southern Passengers use "Southern only" tickets because they are cheaper, but on Monday some services are being taken over by Thameslink whose tickets aren't as viable forcing passengers to swap to "Any Permitted" tickets which are 15%+ more expensive. This is on top of the massive inflationary rise in January.

In May next year many more services will be Thameslink, meaning many more passengers will be forced to pay higher fares.

Isn't the system of regulated fares by the Department For Transport supposed to stop this happening?

 

[swt_passenger]

According to the TSGN franchise ITT DfT were supposed to be removing Thameslink only fares on the Brighton line but once the franchise started they seem to have lost their nerve.

 

[Minstral25]

"Thameslink only" fares are not relevant here. It's where there are no "Thameslink only" fares because until the changes tomorrow all services are Southern, so only "Southern only" fares existed.

Even worse morning trains on Horsham/Redhill route are Thameslink but the return trains in the evening are Southern - so you need separate tickets to cover both companies trains.

To compound this our lovely 12 car Class 377's are being replaced by the standing room only Class 700's with less seats - so more expensive fares and a downgraded journey.

 

[Failed Unit]

"Thameslink only" fares are not relevant here. It's where there are no "Thameslink only" fares because until the changes tomorrow all services are Southern, so only "Southern only" fares existed.

Even worse morning trains on Horsham/Redhill route are Thameslink but the return trains in the evening are Southern - so you need separate tickets to cover both companies trains.

To compound this our lovely 12 car Class 377's are being replaced by the standing room only Class 700's with less seats - so more expensive fares and a downgraded journey.

But we are told by Thameslink passengers the 700s are the best thing since sliced bread and we should be greatful to have them. Understand your pain. We also have less capacity and slower journeys as a result of these trains. Thameslink passengers think we should be greatful.

 

[Moonshot]

Many Southern Passengers use "Southern only" tickets because they are cheaper, but on Monday some services are being taken over by Thameslink whose tickets aren't as viable forcing passengers to swap to "Any Permitted" tickets which are 15%+ more expensive. This is on top of the massive inflationary rise in January.

In May next year many more services will be Thameslink, meaning many more passengers will be forced to pay higher fares.

Isn't the system of regulated fares by the Department For Transport supposed to stop this happening?

I think when you consider that its government policy to put more of the cost of running UK rail onto the passenger rather than the taxpayer, then regulated fares pretty much achieve that. Once the whole Thameslink project is bedded in , I think you will see more passengers anyway regardless of the price.

 

[AlexNL]

Even worse morning trains on Horsham/Redhill route are Thameslink but the return trains in the evening are Southern - so you need separate tickets to cover both companies trains.

What genius thought that is a good idea?

 

[Hadders]

The Any Permitted fare will be the regulated ones. They can do anything they want with the Southern Only and Thameslink Only fares.

In any case the services are all operated by the same train operating company called Govia Thameslink Railway. Fares may be restricted to a particular train operating company but restrictions by brand are not allowed.

 

[bigfoote]

In any case the services are all operated by the same train operating company called Govia Thameslink Railway. Fares may be restricted to a particular train operating company but restrictions by brand are not allowed.

Does this mean we are in another GatEx situation, where the restriction effectively means nothing, no matter what Govia say?

 

[Hadders]

Does this mean we are in another GatEx situation, where the restriction effectively means nothing, no matter what Govia say?

Absolutely although someone using a Southern only ticket on a Thameslink branded service and v.v. should not expect a hassle free trip.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at a few stations on the Southern network, are there actually 'Southern only' tickets to London from anywhere other than Gatwick Airport?

This just seems to be an unintended consequence of Horley passengers finding out that they can get a cheaper ticket from Gatwick which should have been corrected by GTR before the Thameslink takeover.

 

[Minstral25]

Looking at a few stations on the Southern network, are there actually 'Southern only' tickets to London from anywhere other than Gatwick Airport?

This just seems to be an unintended consequence of Horley passengers finding out that they can get a cheaper ticket from Gatwick which should have been corrected by GTR before the Thameslink takeover.

From what I have heard many Horley passengers are forced to go via Gatwick as it is often the fastest route (outside peaks and evenings)

However, the lack of "London Bridge only" and "Victoria only" tickets being available at stations between Merstham, Redhill, Reigate and Horley means that passengers from these stations have Gatwick (or Dorking West) "Southern only" tickets and have done this for years!

They only have London Terminals only which are more expensive

 

[Minstral25]

In any case the services are all operated by the same train operating company called Govia Thameslink Railway. Fares may be restricted to a particular train operating company but restrictions by brand are not allowed.

I thought this was an "urban myth" and they are allowed to split the tickets as technically it is separate operating legal entities all controlled by Govia Thameslink Railways ready for the big break up in 2021!

 

[Hadders]

I thought this was an "urban myth" and they are allowed to split the tickets as technically it is separate operating legal entities all controlled by Govia Thameslink Railways ready for the big break up in 2021!

They are not separate legal entities.

https://www.southernrailway.com/terms/terms-and-conditions

INFORMATION ABOUT US
GREATNORTHERNRAIL.COM, THAMESLINKRAILWAY.COM, SOUTHERNRAILWAY.COM and GATWICKEXPRESS.COM are sites operated by GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LTD ("We"). We are registered in England and Wales under company number 07934306 and have our registered office at 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street Newcastle Upon Tyne, NE1 6EE.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/terms-of-use/terms-and-conditions

INFORMATION ABOUT US
THAMESLINKRAILWAY.COM, SOUTHERNRAILWAY.COM and GATWICKEXPRESS.COM are sites operated by GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LTD ("We"). We are registered in England and Wales under company number 07934306 and have our registered office at 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street Newcastle Upon Tyne, NE1 6EE.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/terms-of-use/terms-and-conditions

INFORMATION ABOUT US
GREATNORTHERNRAIL.COM, THAMESLINKRAILWAY.COM, SOUTHERNRAILWAY.COM and GATWICKEXPRESS.COM are sites operated by GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LTD ("We"). We are registered in England and Wales under company number 07934306 and have our registered office at 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street Newcastle Upon Tyne, NE1 6EE.

https://www.gatwickexpress.com/terms/terms-and-conditions

INFORMATION ABOUT US
GREATNORTHERNRAIL.COM, THAMESLINKRAILWAY.COM, SOUTHERNRAILWAY.COM and GATWICKEXPRESS.COM are sites operated by GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LTD ("We"). We are registered in England and Wales under company number 07934306 and have our registered office at 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street Newcastle Upon Tyne, NE1 6EE.

 

[tsr]

What genius thought that is a good idea?

More of the stopping services from Horsham will swap over, and eventually merge with their intended cross-TL destination of Peterborough; the fact that some have not is due to crew and stock availability.

It would have been nice to see everything transfer in one go, for simplicity's sake, but this was not to be.

From what I have heard many Horley passengers are forced to go via Gatwick as it is often the fastest route (outside peaks and evenings)

Horley does have regular express services to Victoria during off-peak hours, and a number of very good options in the peak, too (and not necessarily too busy, depending on train). Personally, I think Horley passengers tend to overcomplicate things at times, but there we are. Anecdotally (from myself and others), there are often more complaints from them about waiting at Gatwick than at Horley!

I thought this was an "urban myth" and they are allowed to split the tickets as technically it is separate operating legal entities all controlled by Govia Thameslink Railways ready for the big break up in 2021!

As above, these are not separate entities and even the branding is allowed to merge between routes on some occasions. Eg. GX 387s used on Southern services, and 377s used on a few GX services.

To any GTR controller, apart from some continued fragmentation in the locations of GN and its service delivery staff, it is much easier to swap a lot of things between brands, compared to how a passenger will see it. If you have competent Southern staff to work a GX 387 on an all-stations service via Redhill, for example, they'll do it (and that happened only a couple of months ago).

The colour of paint, in and of itself, makes absolutely no difference when it comes to keeping the job moving, and in that regard the GTR situation is at least much better than having fragmentation between Southern / FCC (remember them? ) etc.

This does make it all the more nonsensical that you can have brand-specific fares. It looks like GTR are also being pushed further and further towards making GX tickets more exclusive, to the degree that they are regularly advertising that GX will not accept Southern tickets even during major disruption, including when there would be little benefit deliberately boarding GX, as most of their services are quite vulnerable to cancellation if an incident occurs!

 

[GatwickDepress]

Looking at a few stations on the Southern network, are there actually 'Southern only' tickets to London from anywhere other than Gatwick Airport?

This just seems to be an unintended consequence of Horley passengers finding out that they can get a cheaper ticket from Gatwick which should have been corrected by GTR before the Thameslink takeover.

Milton Keynes Central offers 'Southern Only' tickets to London. Obviously in this case its clear cut, as you are very unlikely to board a Thameslink train to Milton Keynes Central - has any enterprising crayonista suggested turning the Marston Vale Line into a Thameslink branch yet?

 

[Starmill]

As far as I am aware, Southern Only is a defunct train operator restriction, which must therefore be honoured by the successor franchisee. In this case the tickets are only valid on the services of New Southern Railway. As they no longer run trains, Govia Thameslink Railway must accept the tickets. It just so happens that they will continue running these same trains. It's just the same as if I bought a ticket tomorrow that said 'London Midland only' on it. There are no London Midland services that I could use, but West Midlands Trains would have to accept the ticket.

The restriction is in place to prevent use of (and revenue allocation to) Great Western Railway and South Western Railway.

However:

Absolutely although someone using a Southern only ticket on a Thameslink branded service and v.v. should not expect a hassle free trip.

I agree with this. GTR are well known for causing problems for their customers based on this.

 

[Starmill]

If you have competent Southern staff to work a GX 387 on an all-stations service via Redhill, for example, they'll do it (and that happened only a couple of months ago).

I understand that such red units have worked the likes of stopping trains from Eastbourne to Brighton in the past? Green trains frequently used to work services between Brighton and London Bridge which were not announced as Southern and still do at certain times of day, although they are announced as Southern. Green units and white units have worked services non-stop from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria. Red units sometimes work services which call at Clapham Junction and not Gatwick Airport. It seems quite a pervasive principle!

 

[Samuel88]

All of you arguing that Southern and Thameslink are the same company, so therefore passengers with Southern or Thameslink only tickets should just travel on any services, I can tell you now that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, and neither would 99% of the travelling public!

Why the Southern, Thameslink and Gatwick Express brands can't be amalgamated into just one is beyond me!

 

[sarahj]

Some blurb

Fares Harmonisation / Simplification:
An opportunity to simplify the fare structure of season tickets from some Southern stations to London Victoria and London Terminals has been implemented. From 2 January the London Victoria season ticket has been removed, leaving just the London Terminals option. This has been achieved by increasing the price of the London Victoria fares by 3.6% and holding the London Terminals fare at that level (as illustrated below).
The London Terminals fare then receives a lower than average increase (around 1.6% – 1.8%) and then becomes the only ticket option, giving customers greater flexibility when travelling into and out of London.

The following is to clarify some points about ticketing with these changes:
 Tickets routed ‘Any Permitted’ will continue to be valid for travel on these new Thameslink trains.
Some passengers may benefit from these changes where there is a choice of a ‘Thameslink Only’ fare available for their journey in addition to the ‘Any Permitted’ fare. As now passengers will need to ensure that their individual journey plans work with the ticket they buy.
 There will be no additional ‘Thameslink Only’ routed tickets created as part of these changes.
 Tickets routed ‘Southern Only’ will NOT be valid on these trains; in the main these changes may impact passengers in the Redhill and Gatwick Airport area.
With more Thameslink services planned to replace Southern services in the May and December 2018 timetable changes next year it is important to make passengers aware when they renew their season ticket that the service they currently travel on may change and the ticket they currently have may not be valid at that point.
Passengers can find out more about the planned changes at this website

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Hadders]

All of you arguing that Southern and Thameslink are the same company, so therefore passengers with Southern or Thameslink only tickets should just travel on any services, I can tell you now that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, and neither would 99% of the travelling public!

Why the Southern, Thameslink and Gatwick Express brands can't be amalgamated into just one is beyond me!

The whole thing is a mess but legally tickets can't be restricted by brand, only by train operating company. All of the brands are operated by one train operating company.

GTR can huff and puff all they like but any prosecution would be destined to fail.

I would only advise someone to use a Thameslink only ticket on a Southern branded service and v.v if they had a high degree of fares knowledge and were prepared for the potential hassle.

 

[Starmill]

There are frequently useful and fairly easy ways to avoid needing to get into that debate too, if you are an expert.

 

[gray1404]

So GTR are saying it is important to make passengers aware when they renew their season ticket that the service they currently travel on may change and the ticket they currently have may not be valid at that point.

So one assumes this is with reference to any season tickets which are routed with one of the GTR brands.

Shameful! A ticket cannot simply become invalid because of a change of timetable or change of brand. The customer would be quite entitled to continue to use their ticket on the same basis (using any GTR train subject to it being a permitted route) until it expired.

 

[maniacmartin]

Does anyone know if GTR will accept seasons that have already been issued on trains of the wrong brand, where the brand that runs the service changes? Not everyone runs their annual seasons aligned with the calendar year.

I can can understand changing the restriction for new tickets, but for existing tickets sounds like a consumer rights/contract/PR nightmare, especially as they’re all the same legal entity.

 

[infobleep]

I understand that if a route changes, your season ticket is still valid on the original route.

Howvee if a train service switched TOCs, which I admit isn't the case here, would your ticket be valid because when you purchased your ticket the former TOC still ran the service?

The other thing I don't understand is the following:

From 2 January the London Victoria season ticket has been removed, leaving just the London Terminals option. This has been achieved by increasing the price of the London Victoria fares by 3.6% and holding the London Terminals fare at that level (as illustrated below).

Thanks SarahJ to for posting.
If the season ticket to Victoria is abolished, how can fares to Victoria rise by 3.6%?

Where was the advertising campaign in advance of this change? Don't they want to keep passengers informed. I mean there's enough posters about the London Bridge program of world and being vigilant about terrorism. Both of which are good to have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what it basically means is that the London Terminals fare has not increased, while the Victoria one has been abolished, the result of which is to increase the fare paid by those passengers by 3.6%.

 

[infobleep]

What is the average increase for regulated tickets?

 

[Starmill]

I think what it basically means is that the London Terminals fare has not increased, while the Victoria one has been abolished, the result of which is to increase the fare paid by those passengers by 3.6%.

Nearly. What it means is that the London Victoria fares are being abolished and then the new London Terminals fares are being priced at 3.6% above the level of the old London Victoria fare. The net effect is that people who currently have a London Terminals fare will see a rise of around 1.8%, and current London Victoria ticket holders will see a rise of the full 3.6%, but will have a London Terminals ticket.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Howvee if a train service switched TOCs, which I admit isn't the case here, would your ticket be valid because when you purchased your ticket the former TOC still ran the service?

It'd be an interesting argument. Nobody guarantees a specific train will be run at all, never mind by a specific TOC. The contract is for all trains run by that TOC. That number may change. If all the trains disappear, that would be different.

But I'd expect GTR to back down rather than risk a defeat in court.

 

[infobleep]

I have swwn

Nearly. What it means is that the London Victoria fares are being abolished and then the new London Terminals fares are being priced at 3.6% above the level of the old London Victoria fare. The net effect is that people who currently have a London Terminals fare will see a rise of around 1.8%, and current London Victoria ticket holders will see a rise of the full 3.6%, but will have a London Terminals ticket.

I have come across other tickets, not to London terminals that have risen by just over 1%. That's less than 1.8%, let alone 3.6%

Whilst it might be great that they are giving people additional flexibility, there maybe some people who don't need or want it. So they would see this as paying more for somethinf they don't want.

Will this change give a little bit more money to South Eastern and South Western Railway? After all on a London terminals train one can travel to Waterloo from Clapham Junction. Waterloo is a very popular destination.

I wonder if they would get rid of their Portsmouth to London zones 1 to 6 via Three Bridges season ticket season ticket and just leave the any permitted one. After all it would give more flexibility to customers?

 

[Starmill]

Whilst it might be great that they are giving people additional flexibility, there maybe some people who don't need or want it.

I agree, and they will be forced to pay more. Disappointing, but this is GTR we are talking about! What's more it's in line with government policy.

Will this change give a little bit more money to South Eastern and South Western Railway? After all on a London terminals train one can travel to Waterloo from Clapham Junction. Waterloo is a very popular destination.

Only if timetables mean that Southeastern or South Western Railway services feature in the fastest journey opportunities. But yes this is quite possible, although likely to be a very small effect.