GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[ctrh136]

Interesting that South Croydon is getting a direct service to Victoria out of peak hours, which is not the case in the regular timetable. I'm assuming they've only extended the stopper to SCY as it's a convenient place to terminate and avoids blocking a platform at East Croydon.

It's also a popular school train route for Whitgift School so it helps fill that requirement.

 

[mirodo]

It's also a popular school train route for Whitgift School so it helps fill that requirement.

Indeed - I've found myself battling against a crowd of schoolkids exiting the station when trying to get to the platform before now! The point being once the rush hour (insofar as it exists at the moment) is over, there's normally nothing from SCY to VIC after around 0900.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Will the Victoria to east Croydon use class 387 Gatwick Express stock

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would almost certainly think that's the reason with 4tph terminating at East Croydon. Purley would have been even more convenient I'd have thought though, but might require too many diagrams.

They'll be drivers who don't go south of South Croydon (such as drivers who do the East Grinsteads)

 

[Fincra5]

Will the Victoria to east Croydon use class 387 Gatwick Express stock

I'd envisage more 377s / 455s... what Vic/Selhurst Depot seem to sign as a basic! Not all sign 387s (even thought they're basically the same as 377).

 

[phantomphish]

Thanks for that. Looks like they'll be running that ECR-VIC shuttle after all then (although odd to see them call at Streatham Common). Glad to see it was able to arranged. Can't say I'd want to be in train planning's position these last 24 months with all these STP (or VSTP!) arrangements.

If, as expected, these extras are to run on the fast lines through Balham (I haven't seen the full plan yet), there is no step-free access to/from platforms 3&4 there - so the Streatham Common stop allows a potential step-free interchange option for wheelchair users etc. travelling from VIC or ECR to Balham, albeit with one change of train... Meanwhile, the London Bridge to Beckenham Junction service is back to half-hourly rather than the 90-minute frequency before Christmas, and the trains from London Bridge to Cat/Tat via Peckham Rye are actually longer than normal at 10 vice 8 cars - a relatively Net Increase in service compared to most of the last few months on that line...

 

[infobleep]

As has been explained, GTR didn't have the drivers available to operate the full service. Their only option was to either hack about with the full plan and cross their fingers, which would have placed a huge burden on control and massively impacted passengers who couldn't make plans, or to operate the most recent restricted service timetable and offer passengers some level of certainty. The Christmas plan would have had all the diagrams and rosters sitting there so the roster clerk would 'only' have had to put a name to 'diagram 1'. Taking the second option also meant that if more drivers than expected were available, control could make a decision about running additional trains towards Victoria if required.

I doubt it's been fantastically easy to implement. Just a darn sight easier to do than a completely new plan.

I heard of someone who could have worked new year's day but didn't. I assume that was due to having enough drivers to have the planned timetable running

 

[OliverH68]

and the trains from London Bridge to Cat/Tat via Peckham Rye are actually longer than normal at 10 vice 8 cars - a relatively Net Increase in service compared to most of the last few months on that line...

Caterham/Tattenham trains are always 10 cars.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If, as expected, these extras are to run on the fast lines through Balham (I haven't seen the full plan yet), there is no step-free access to/from platforms 3&4 there - so the Streatham Common stop allows a potential step-free interchange option for wheelchair users etc. travelling from VIC or ECR to Balham, albeit with one change of train... Meanwhile, the London Bridge to Beckenham Junction service is back to half-hourly rather than the 90-minute frequency before Christmas, and the trains from London Bridge to Cat/Tat via Peckham Rye are actually longer than normal at 10 vice 8 cars - a relatively Net Increase in service compared to most of the last few months on that line...

Schedules in RTT show them as FL run by Southern.

All credit to GTR planners for getting this turnaround and uploaded although why they wouldn't revert to the base plan for MLs to VIC seems odd as they are still running ML to same frequency to LBG. Anyhow that is continuing to work very well with only one cancelled all day yesterday so train crew provision is presumably adequate and if this is to be the temporary timetable for next few weeks there isn't much to complain about really.

 

[Capvermell]

Does anyone know yet what actual services will be running next week (from Jan 10th onwards) to Horsham via Epsom, Leatherhead and Dorking and in particular if we will be stuck with a Saturday only service from Dorking to Horsham without any evening trains at all or if Southern plan to bring back the full lockdown timetable of 2020 where Dorking to Horsham was served for many months by a shuttle service in the off peak in the daytime and the evening.

Also under the 2020 lockdown timetable there was a Saturday evening shuttle between Dorking and Horsham as exactly the same timetable ran six days a week from Monday to Saturday. This is the first time since the 1960s or 1970s that there have been Saturday evening trains south of Dorking through to Horsham. I obtained and have kept a copy of the electronic timetable of the lockdown period but Southern management (I emailed all their senior management including train planning listed on LinkedIn) totally ignored (i.e. nobody responded) my suggestion that Saturday evening services should be retained going forwards given that a Saturday daytime service from Dorking to Horsham without evening trains is not likely to encourage much custom. In terms of passenger numbers and the service only generally being used by those going to Central London or without cars a once every 2 hours service would do at the weekend but we need trains on both Saturday and Sunday including the evening period. One thing I don't get at all is why a guard or train supervisor is still required to be onboard from Dorking to Horsham at all times (driving up the cost of running these services significantly) just because the stations are unmanned when the same requirement does not apply to also totally unmanned Boxhill & Westhumble.

However just checked the Southern website journey/fares planner and that suggests we will be stuck with the same crappy Saturday only service from London Bridge with no trains in the evening all week next week (starting 10th January) as though it was still Christmas Week but that normal train service with an hourly service south of Dorking leaving London Victoria at the usual 25 minutes past the hour will resume on Monday 17th January.

But is that just a holding position until we get to next week when they will then alter the timetable for the week starting 17th Jan to once again show a Saturday service but perhaps running from London Victoria rather than London Bridge?......................

 

[Surreytraveller]

Schedules in RTT show them as FL run by Southern.

All credit to GTR planners for getting this turnaround and uploaded although why they wouldn't revert to the base plan for MLs to VIC seems odd as they are still running ML to same frequency to LBG. Anyhow that is continuing to work very well with only one cancelled all day yesterday so train crew provision is presumably adequate and if this is to be the temporary timetable for next few weeks there isn't much to complain about really.

Its not the planners. Its Control.
You cannot divert the mainliners to Victoria without unpicking the existing workings.
These are standalone workings using drivers and stock that is spare owing to the reduced service

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Its not the planners. Its Control.
You cannot divert the mainliners to Victoria without unpicking the existing workings.
These are standalone workings using drivers and stock that is spare owing to the reduced service

Well all credit to the control and as i say its more than adequate to cover for current demand and is running very smoothly so that gives people who want to travel confidence.

 

[Capvermell]

Well all credit to the control and as i say its more than adequate to cover for current demand and is running very smoothly so that gives people who want to travel confidence.

It doesn't give me any confidence at all in Southern when the continued smooth running of the Christmas period diversion timetable to London Bridge results in no evening train services at all between Dorking and Horsham (serving Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham as well as those connecting at Sutton, Epsom, Ashtead and Leatherhead down to Boxhill, Dorking and Horsham and the South Coast) on normal weekday evenings.

The idea that you are much better off being absolutely certain you now have no evening train services at all on a weekday rather than having hourly evening services of which may be half might be cancelled (still leaving you with a viable way to get affordably to and from your home if you check the online timetable before you leave home) is simply totally and utterly preposterous.

I wonder what would happen if I decide I want to travel in the evening this week, buy a ticket and then submit a claim to pay back the cost of the ticket and the cost of the resulting taxi journey because Southern has not run a service that it is contractually obliged to run under its current contract with the Department For Transport.................

 

[southern442]

Seems as though Mitcham Eastfields to Hackbridge will actually end up with a better service than they get in normal times!

 

[XAM2175]

The idea that you are much better off being absolutely certain you now have no evening train services at all on a weekday rather than having hourly evening services of which may be half might be cancelled (still leaving you with a viable way to get affordably to and from your home if you check the online timetable before you leave home) is simply totally and utterly preposterous.

No, the certainty is preferable. It's far better to implement an achievable base timetable and then selectively restore trains to it, rather than making short-notice cancellations.

I wonder what would happen if I decide I want to travel in the evening this week, buy a ticket and then submit a claim to pay back the cost of the ticket and the cost of the resulting taxi journey because Southern has not run a service that it is contractually obliged to run under its current contract with the Department For Transport.................

Please feel free, but don't kick off at us when they refund the ticket and reject the taxi claim.

 

[Capvermell]

Seems as though Mitcham Eastfields to Hackbridge will actually end up with a better service than they get in normal times!

They already get far too many trains and those of us living anywhere south of Epsom would be more than happy if none of our trains stopped at these suburban stations. Ditto hourly train from Horsham to Victoria via Sutton ought to only call at Ockley, Holmwood, Warnham, Dorking, Leatherhead, Sutton and Clapham Junction if there was any intention to let those living in Mole Valley reach London in a reasonable period of time instead of the miserable Snail Like All Stations Metropolitan Line service to Surrey and West Sussex that Southern/GoVia seems to prefer to run.................

 

[island]

I wonder what would happen if I decide I want to travel in the evening this week, buy a ticket and then submit a claim to pay back the cost of the ticket and the cost of the resulting taxi journey because Southern has not run a service that it is contractually obliged to run under its current contract with the Department For Transport.................

You will be on a hiding to nothing; as you are not a party to the contract with the DfT you won't be able to claim under it. If the cancellation is known to you at the time you buy the ticket, the most you'll be due back is a refund of the unused portion.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder what would happen if I decide I want to travel in the evening this week, buy a ticket and then submit a claim to pay back the cost of the ticket and the cost of the resulting taxi journey because Southern has not run a service that it is contractually obliged to run under its current contract with the Department For Transport

Southern (nor their parent company) are contractually obliged to run the service…

 

[Fincra5]

They already get far too many trains and those of us living anywhere south of Epsom would be more than happy if none of our trains stopped at these suburban stations. Ditto hourly train from Horsham to Victoria via Sutton ought to only call at Ockley, Holmwood, Warnham, Dorking, Leatherhead, Sutton and Clapham Junction if there was any intention to let those living in Mole Valley reach London in a reasonable period of time instead of the miserable Snail Like All Stations Metropolitan Line service to Surrey and West Sussex that Southern/GoVia seems to prefer to run.................

Sorry but Horsham via Dorking is classed as a Metro Route... So it will stop at more stations. There are faster services just down the road in Horsham.

 

[Capvermell]

Sorry but Horsham via Dorking is classed as a Metro Route... So it will stop at more stations. There are faster services just down the road in Horsham.

Horsham station is not just down the road from Ockley (which is exactly half way between Dorking and Horsham). Its 6.5 miles to the south of my home or a 15 minute drive in normal traffic, which would negate any advantage in travelling there given that the fastest 52 or 53 minute services to London Victoria from Horsham are not exactly rapid.

Also South London Metro is as far as I'm aware a long redundant concept (it used to appear on rail maps but no longer does) that we ceased to be part of south of Dorking when whatever the old sliding door trains without loos were entirely replaced by Electrostar stock several years ago after the power circuits from Dorking to Horsham were also appropriately upgraded and the then semaphore signalling south of Dorking was replaced with modern coloured light signalling and all the old manual signal boxes (eg at Warnham and the manual switching point at Holmwood when trains used to terminate there) on the line done away with.

It is totally and utterly wrong in my view that any stations south of Epsom are treated by GoVia as a part of its slow, stopping at all stations South London Metro service and instead we should be being made a part of Thameslink services via Sutton (see for instance https://news.surreycc.gov.uk/2016/01/08/crossrail-2-could-go-to-dorking-and-should-extend-to-woking/ and this article of some years ago at www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/go-slow-faster-train-service-4848176) given that Network Rail and GoVia apparently have no ambition whatsoever sort out the ridiculously snail paced blockade to decent train services that is Sutton to Clapham Junction. There is also this proposal for a completely new Mole Valley link to the faster Woking lines in to Waterloo at https://ukrail.blogspot.com/2013/03/mole-valley-link.html

Semi Fast Trains (not stopping Sutton to Clapham Junction but has now become Carshalton to Clapham Junction) used to only take a vaguely acceptable 51 minutes from Ockley to London Victoria back in 1991 but via numerous timetable slowing downs over the years (which now result in trains often waiting at signals in stations waiting for the officially absurdly slow timetabled time to clock round) and the addition of Boxhill as another compulsory stop this has some how shot up to the current outrageously slow 68 minutes.

We still have to pay as much for this lousy service as commuters from Horley pay for a much better four trains an hour service to both Victoria and London Bridge and it seems that those of us living on the Mole Valley lines enjoy a Cinderella service from the GoVia group, who's only focus of recent years seems to have been on ever more passenger capacity rather than faster services. But with the vast permanent drop in passenger numbers it seems to me that the focus ought to switch back to giving those who do travel to London a decent fast service to the Capital............

 

[seaviewer]

I had better whisper this, in case someone puts a stop to it, but East Coastway seems to be benefiting from (As far as I can see from a quick look) a pre-Covid timetable this week and next. Can it last? Fingers crossed

 

[Capvermell]

I had better whisper this, in case someone puts a stop to it, but East Coastway seems to be benefiting from (As far as I can see from a quick look) a pre-Covid timetable this week and next. Can it last? Fingers crossed

Well that does seem suspicious.

I wonder if the extension of the Christmas timetable in to London Bridge is actually motivated by a covert extension of the signalling project rather than real driver shortages. Otherwise they could surely easily have reverted to Saturday or Sunday timetable in to London Victoria.........

 

[Surreytraveller]

I had better whisper this, in case someone puts a stop to it, but East Coastway seems to be benefiting from (As far as I can see from a quick look) a pre-Covid timetable this week and next. Can it last? Fingers crossed

Its a rollover of last week's modified Saturday service

 

[Fincra5]

Horsham station is not just down the road from Ockley (which is exactly half way between Dorking and Horsham). Its 6.5 miles to the south of my home or a 15 minute drive in normal traffic, which would negate any advantage in travelling there given that the fastest 52 or 53 minute services to London Victoria from Horsham are not exactly rapid.

Also South London Metro is as far as I'm aware a long redundant concept (it used to appear on rail maps but no longer does) that we ceased to be part of south of Dorking when whatever the old sliding door trains without loos were entirely replaced by Electrostar stock several years ago after the power circuits from Dorking to Horsham were also appropriately upgraded and the then semaphore signalling south of Dorking was replaced with modern coloured light signalling and all the old manual signal boxes (eg at Warnham and the manual switching point at Holmwood when trains used to terminate there) on the line done away with.

It is totally and utterly wrong in my view that any stations south of Epsom are treated by GoVia as a part of its slow, stopping at all stations South London Metro service and instead we should be being made a part of Thameslink services via Sutton (see for instance https://news.surreycc.gov.uk/2016/01/08/crossrail-2-could-go-to-dorking-and-should-extend-to-woking/ and this article of some years ago at www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/go-slow-faster-train-service-4848176) given that Network Rail and GoVia apparently have no ambition whatsoever sort out the ridiculously snail paced blockade to decent train services that is Sutton to Clapham Junction. There is also this proposal for a completely new Mole Valley link to the faster Woking lines in to Waterloo at https://ukrail.blogspot.com/2013/03/mole-valley-link.html

Semi Fast Trains (not stopping Sutton to Clapham Junction but has now become Carshalton to Clapham Junction) used to only take a vaguely acceptable 51 minutes from Ockley to London Victoria back in 1991 but via numerous timetable slowing downs over the years (which now result in trains often waiting at signals in stations waiting for the officially absurdly slow timetabled time to clock round) and the addition of Boxhill as another compulsory stop this has some how shot up to the current outrageously slow 68 minutes.

We still have to pay as much for this lousy service as commuters from Horley pay for a much better four trains an hour service to both Victoria and London Bridge and it seems that those of us living on the Mole Valley lines enjoy a Cinderella service from the GoVia group, who's only focus of recent years seems to have been on ever more passenger capacity rather than faster services. But with the vast permanent drop in passenger numbers it seems to me that the focus ought to switch back to giving those who do travel to London a decent fast service to the Capital............

I don't know the line speeds of that area (well South of Sutton) but generally it's fairly busy route (From Epsom), so not sure how much faster a service would be if it skipped more stations (You'd probably catch up another Metro Train service). Perhaps the limited amount of users (vs the BML) doesn't quite lead to a need for a faster service, rather than a want...

68 Mins vs 52, not exactly much in it really. Brighton to Vic, off peak, can be around 53 mins but is more like 65-68 in the peak with all the stops... yet thats acceptable?

I can appreciate the frustration in the current service terminating earlier than normal (as its a Sat TT bascially) but in this time of shortage of crew, pandemic and all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...

 

[OxtedL]

Well that does seem suspicious.

I wonder if the extension of the Christmas timetable in to London Bridge is actually motivated by a covert extension of the signalling project rather than real driver shortages. Otherwise they could surely easily have reverted to Saturday or Sunday timetable in to London Victoria.........

While I'm sure everyone is enjoying your series of short essays on the current train service to Ockley, I also think that it's been repeated enough times that the real situation is way less complicated than you're making it.

It is possible to see on open train mapping sites (e.g. https://traksy.uk/live/M+9+BALHAM/M+5+WANDCMN+12 ) that there are no engineering works today between Victoria and East Croydon. No secret conspiracy here.

The lack of evening train service at Ockley, while unfortunate, is a simple result of rolling over a timetable based on a Saturday service pattern, where Victoria also happened to be closed.

Re-introducing an evening service to Ockley, whilst desirable, is a lower priority than re-introducing an all day service to Victoria. Which, incidentally, will now happen from next week, because resource has now been found both to plan and to run one.

Maybe evening service to Ockley will be next to be re-introduced. Or perhaps not, given its relatively low national importance.

I do think that you have got your point across on these forums now though. Maybe direct your future complaining at Southern rather than here!

 

[Bald Rick]

Well that does seem suspicious.

I wonder if the extension of the Christmas timetable in to London Bridge is actually motivated by a covert extension of the signalling project rather than real driver shortages. Otherwise they could surely easily have reverted to Saturday or Sunday timetable in to London Victoria.........

As has been said before, the works were completed on time.

 

[louis97]

Its not the planners. Its Control.

Its a joint effort between the two actually. Planning will have bid the paths to Network Rail for validation and publishing. Control are arranging the stock and crew. Note there are some Q paths in the system to be activated if crew is available to operate them.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Its a joint effort between the two actually. Planning will have bid the paths to Network Rail for validation and publishing. Control are arranging the stock and crew. Note there are some Q paths in the system to be activated if crew is available to operate them.

Fair enough. Control puts the trains on the empty railway.

 

[gray1404]

Is there any scope for Southern services on the West London Line between Milton Keynes Central or Watford Junction and Clapham Junction to be running again anytime soon?

 

[Nova1]

Is there any scope for Southern services on the West London Line between Milton Keynes Central or Watford Junction and Clapham Junction to be running again anytime soon?

I feel as if the services up to Milton Keynes are probably fairly low priority considering the other options between these stations