Guildford to south London routeing question

[BRX]

Essentially: is a ticket between Loughborough Junction and Guildford also valid for a journey between Denmark Hill and Guildford, and/or vice versa?

And if so would that apply to a 'not via London' ticket as well as 'Any Permitted'?

Potentially there is a route that goes Guildford-Clapham Junction-Denmark Hill-Elephant&Castle-Loughborough Junction, and if that were a valid route, then getting off at Denmark using a ticket to Loughborough Junction would be ok.

Also, there is a route that goes Guildford-Wimbledon-(Loughborough Junction)-Elephant&Castle-Denmark Hill and again, if that were valid then getting off at Loughborough Junction would seem ok.

I've become baffled trying to work it out from the routeing guide maps.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Potentially there is a route that goes Guildford-Clapham Junction-Denmark Hill-Elephant&Castle-Loughborough Junction, and if that were a valid route, then getting off at Denmark using a ticket to Loughborough Junction would be ok.

Don't you already pass through Loughborough Junction on the way from Denmark Hill to Elephant & Castle, it's just that the line hasn't had any platforms on it since 1925 (according to Wikipedia)? So there would be a doubleback involved.

More technically from a routeing guide point of view, your destination routeing point would be Denmark Hill, but Loughborough Junction isn't associated with it (it is associated with Peckham Rye, though), so the route can't be validated as far as I can see.

 

[30907]

Don't you already pass through Loughborough Junction on the way from Denmark Hill to Elephant & Castle, it's just that the line hasn't had any platforms on it since 1925 (according to Wikipedia)? So there would be a doubleback involved.

More technically from a routeing guide point of view, your destination routeing point would be Denmark Hill, but Loughborough Junction isn't associated with it (it is associated with Peckham Rye, though), so the route can't be validated as far as I can see.

It's not a doubleback but NRE only allows it on the Any Permitted fare.

 

[BRX]

Don't you already pass through Loughborough Junction on the way from Denmark Hill to Elephant & Castle, it's just that the line hasn't had any platforms on it since 1925 (according to Wikipedia)? So there would be a doubleback involved.

More technically from a routeing guide point of view, your destination routeing point would be Denmark Hill, but Loughborough Junction isn't associated with it (it is associated with Peckham Rye, though), so the route can't be validated as far as I can see.

It does pass through the old disused platforms but if you can't get off there I don't see how it would count as a double-back.

I'm a bit unclear what the implication of Loughborough Junction being associated with Peckham Rye is. Does it mean that a ticket to Peckham Rye would allow me to get off at Loughborough Junction?

 

[BRX]

It's not a doubleback but NRE only allows it on the Any Permitted fare.

I couldn't get NRE to give me a route between Denmark hill and Guildford via Loughborough Junction at all. Even with LGJ as a 'via' station it just gives me the route through Elephant and Waterloo (or does it think that it's going via LGJ because of the disused platforms or something?)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Essentially: is a ticket between Loughborough Junction and Guildford also valid for a journey between Denmark Hill and Guildford, and/or vice versa?

And if so would that apply to a 'not via London' ticket as well as 'Any Permitted'?

Potentially there is a route that goes Guildford-Clapham Junction-Denmark Hill-Elephant&Castle-Loughborough Junction, and if that were a valid route, then getting off at Denmark using a ticket to Loughborough Junction would be ok.

Also, there is a route that goes Guildford-Wimbledon-(Loughborough Junction)-Elephant&Castle-Denmark Hill and again, if that were valid then getting off at Loughborough Junction would seem ok.

I've become baffled trying to work it out from the routeing guide maps.

South London is quite difficult to work out permitted routes for, with so many different lines and so many different junctions etc.! It certainly keeps you on your toes...

I don't think you can go GLD-CLJ-DMK-EPH-LGJ on a 'not via London' ticket: going via EPH-DMK isn't the shortest route, or within 3 miles thereof, at 37mi 6ch vs 29mi 50ch for the shortest route; furthermore, LGJ isn't a Routeing Point in its own right - it's only associated with London Group, Herne Hill and Peckham Rye Routeing Points. There is no way the route you propose can be validated using the maps from any of those Routeing Points, unless you use parts of the maps to and from London - something which I don't think is permitted on a 'not via London' ticket.

If the members of staff checking your ticket aren't experts at London's railway geography, I wouldn't blame them for being confused about the whole thing anyway! Is it a season ticket you've got, or something else?

Don't you already pass through Loughborough Junction on the way from Denmark Hill to Elephant & Castle, it's just that the line hasn't had any platforms on it since 1925 (according to Wikipedia)? So there would be a doubleback involved.

There are no platforms on it, so by definition you are not passing through the station. It's no different to the situation at Didcot or Ardwick!

 

[yorkie]

With Didcot I believe you are considered to be passing through the station for routeing purposes but I will check that.

 

[alistairlees]

See the following train schedules for trains that, respectively, have timing points for Loughborough Junction and Bethnal Green, but do not actually pass through them:
(you will need to ensure the "show all timing points" checkbox is selected)

http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?tips=on&uid=W68728&date=20181208
http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?tips=on&uid=G35860&date=20181208

On the other hand, a CrossCountry train from Southampton to Manchester P is not shown as having a timing point of Didcot Parkway.
http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?tips=on&uid=C76556&date=20181208

Journey planners use all the passing points to calculate validity of a route. A journey planner has no concept of the location of the platforms at a particular timing point - just that the timing point is present.

 

[urpert]

I know this isn’t the point of the discussion, but you can walk between the two in around ten minutes

 

[BRX]

I know this isn’t the point of the discussion, but you can walk between the two in around ten minutes

It actually is the point - both are local, but it depends on the time of day etc which one is the most convenient to travel to/from. Sometimes it's best to travel out from Denmark Hill in the morning, and then return to Loughborough Junction. So if it were the case that a return from one of them allowed me to come back to the other, that would be very useful to know.

 

[kieron]

You could try an Elephant & Castle-Guildford ticket. Denmark Hill is a valid routeing point for Elephant & Castle, and so is Herne Hill (which you would reach via Loughborough Junction).

 

[jimbo99]

I was told at Guildford station ticket office that I could use my East Croydon to Guildford return ("Not via Clapham Junction") to return via Wimbledon and then Tramlink. I asked if the ticket really was valid on the trams and was assured it was. Don't think the tram guys would agree. I then saw a Waterloo bound train at Guildford - the guard told me he didn't know why the ticket said "not via Clapham Junction" and he couldn't see any problem returning to Croydon that way. As he was happy, I boarded his train but I got off at Wimbledon and used the tram (for which I have a separate ticket anyway).

I'm sure both railway staff were wrong?

 

[Haywain]

I'm sure both railway staff were wrong?

Indeed, they were. A ticket routed "Not via Clapham Junction' clearly cannot be used to travel via Clapham Junction and to suggest otherwise is astonishing. As for using Tramlink with a train ticket, I think this came upon another thread recently and while journeys might be shown as routed that way the tickets were not valid on the tram.

 

[jimbo99]

Now when I travel from Croydon to Guildford, I tram it to Wimbledon and buy a ticket from there. Weekday afternoons, the machine at Wimbledon offers these options:

Off-peak day return (any permitted) £11.40
Off-peak day return (Route:Clapham Junction) £14.00

I find it confusing that an apparently more restrictive ticket is more expensive. Does "any permitted" include the option to go via Clapham Junction?

 

[30907]

Now when I travel from Croydon to Guildford, I tram it to Wimbledon and buy a ticket from there. Weekday afternoons, the machine at Wimbledon offers these options:

Off-peak day return (any permitted) £11.40
Off-peak day return (Route:Clapham Junction) £14.00

I find it confusing that an apparently more restrictive ticket is more expensive. Does "any permitted" include the option to go via Clapham Junction?

Any Permitted would not (normally) allow you to double back through your starting station, the CLJ one allows you to use the fast trains.

 

[BRX]

You could try an Elephant & Castle-Guildford ticket. Denmark Hill is a valid routeing point for Elephant & Castle, and so is Herne Hill (which you would reach via Loughborough Junction).

Yes... I had wondered about that. Having just checked, it looks like the 'not via london' return is the same price as it is from Denmark Hill.
Only thing is that buying a ticket starting at a station which is not the one where the machine is, is a bit tricky. Maybe using a phone app is the answer.

 

[A Challenge]

The VIA CLAPHAM JUNCTION fare gives more validity, as normally the fare wouldn't, but the via Clapham Junction ticket doesn't restrict you to fast trains, so you could do Wimbledon - Clapham Junction - Wimbledon - Guildford, and then start short at Wimbledon. It is also valid via Balham and Sutton or via Staines (passing through Clapham, not via Kingston).

Question for someone who knows more - is it valid all the way into London Waterloo, I guess not?

 

[kieron]

You can't use a Wimbledon-Guildford ticket to go into London and then take a direct Waterloo-Guildford train, if that's what you're considering.