GWML / Elizabeth line disruption due to OLE down near Paddington

[JamesT]

It IS though between Paddington and Hayes...

With the number of OHLE failures on the GWML, perhaps the case for a 'Thunderbird' stationed there is growing. While 800s can use their diesel, 387s and 345s could be rescued at least.

I believe from previous comments on this thread, GWR do have a Class 57 in the area. But the strike meant there was nobody to drive it.

 

[ijmad]

Fixing the stranding is one thing but the (honestly quite regular) failures on the GWML should not be affecting the COS so much.

 

[matt_world2004]

You mean the legally mandated break without which a driver could get in serious trouble? Yes it very well should be prioritised.

There can be derogations from working time law in emergency situations even on the railway

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Among many deeply unimpressive aspects of TfL's handling of this incident, starting a blame game with another operator over an infrastructure failure is perhapds the worst. A real low point for the railway in general.

Or an illustration of the frustration behind the scenes between NR and TfL over another infrastructure failure causing carnage to its services. Fortunately despite the high level of major incidents it isn't putting people off using Crossrail so lets hope lessons are learnt quickly here so they don't lose the trust of passengers.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think you keep missing the point.

If I can purchase a power bank that will keep my phone charged for days for £40, why can’t manufacturers ensure there is sufficient resilience for 4 hours+ of everything?

Lighting could easily be replaced with the same emergency lighting aircraft have. Key thing is to keep people informed = keep people safe.

I wonder of future rolling stock designs should include some facility allowing them to be cabled into generators to maintain heating and lighting when OHLE is shut off. It could even be part of the ohle structure emergency cables every link span that allow the train to be in effect plugged in during emergencies

 

[GeeJay]

Remember that this was an exercise on RfLI infrastructure using their rule book and operational procedures, whereas this incident and subsequent detrainments was on Network Rail infrastructure and managed by them.

I was on one of the trains stuck last night in the COS which was very much on RfLI infrastructure and the staff did not fare much better. Admittedly we were detrained within 15 minutes in a station platform but the TfL staff were openly talking amongst themselves if they should evacuate the station as it may be easier to deal with customers outside. It may be my interpretation but it did not seem they were following a fully formed or rehearsed procedure but hopefully improvements can be made on the back of this incident.

 

[matt_world2004]

Or an illustration of the frustration behind the scenes between NR and TfL over another infrastructure failure causing carnage to its services. Fortunately despite the high level of major incidents it isn't putting people off using Crossrail so lets hope lessons are learnt quickly here so they don't lose the trust of passengers.

It is likely the customer communication aspect would have been separate from that frustration , from my tfl customer service graining we were taught to avoid blaming external factors as much as possible , particularly if it was another operators services as it antagonises customers to say "its not my fault gov blame GwR "

 

[sp503]

It is likely the customer communication aspect would have been separate from that frustration , from my tfl customer service graining we were taught to avoid blaming external factors as much as possible , particularly if it was another operators services as it antagonises customers to say "its not my fault gov blame GwR "

And to be fair, TfL’s poor crisis management is one of the contributing factors of passengers’ frustration. This forum has repeatedly discussed how the lack of information to passengers has been the norm for Elizabeth Line (especially when GWR provides a comparison side-by-side when something on the GWML happens). They are in no position to finger-point publicly, really.

 

[800001]

Embarassing. Every salaried employee of the railway involved in this incident should be under investigation, and if this is the level of training we can expect of them, questions must be asked about their training and employment costs. We're constantly told that lots and lots of very highly-paid staff are needed for customer safety, yet time and time again they are proven to be utterly useless in the slightest emergency. In everything from timetables and planning to public information and safety, the Elizabeth line has Rolls Royce input costs and Morris Minor outcomes. The trained professionals are being disrepectful to the paying passengers, not the other way around.

The people on the ground would be following instructions from people in control rooms, So you want each of them on the ground investigayed for following instructions from higher management.

The failings come from the process/procedures in place, the people on the ground do not create those procedures.

Your reply is embarrassing for wanting every member of staff investigated!

We all agree that last night was shambolic, aim your comments at the people who deserve it, not the people who were out on the ground!

 

[Walter Whigham]

Does anyone know who the culprits are who decided there should be no toilet facilities on Elizabeth Line stock?

 

[800001]

Does anyone know who the culprits are who decided there should be no toilet facilities on Elizabeth Line stock?

Probably DFT or TFL/Mayor of London, as it will of all been about cost and capacity.

 

[Mojo]

Does anyone know who the culprits are who decided there should be no toilet facilities on Elizabeth Line stock?

With lack of power and the train having started loadshedding, would the toilets still be working this far in? Thinking back to the Eurostar train stranded for several hours last week customers on board reported no toilets working.

 

[hwl]

With lack of power and the train having started loadshedding, would the toilets still be working this far in?

No and neither would the toilet doors.

 

[apbj]

Does anyone know who the culprits are who decided there should be no toilet facilities on Elizabeth Line stock?

And no luggage space on an airport shuttle. The state of the carriages going east in the morning has to be seen to be believed.

 

[hwl]

Does anyone know who the culprits are who decided there should be no toilet facilities on Elizabeth Line stock?

Some tube journeys are longer than Elizabeth line ones and they don't have toilets (EL station do have toilets). Typical Elizabeth Line journeys are also shorter than the DfT threshold time for contemplating fitting toilets.

And no luggage space on an airport shuttle. The state of the carriages going east in the morning has to be seen to be believed.

But a greater proportion of floor space than any other passenger train operating on the NR network.

 

[stuu]

Does anyone know who the culprits are who decided there should be no toilet facilities on Elizabeth Line stock?

Metros don't have toilets anywhere

 

[sp503]

With lack of power and the train having started loadshedding, would the toilets still be working this far in? Thinking back to the Eurostar train stranded for several hours last week customers on board reported no toilets working.

Toilets, or the lack of, is a red herring here. Does the lack of toilet in the trains make the passengers’ experiences more miserable? Yes. Would the addition of toilets have prevented the incident? No. Was the lack of toilets one of the contributing factors of the incident? No. Would this incident be enough to justify addition of toilets? No, one of the reasons being that they won’t work when power is out.

The design of Elizabeth Line is a metro, maybe more like Southwestern metro routes than the LU, but still a metro. If it warrants toilets, there must be strong enough justifications on the operational pattern, but that is not relevant to this thread.

 

[matt_world2004]

Toilets may have made the situation worse , your cutting capacity to install them and they would have quickly become overflowing in a situation where they cannot be flushed

Are there driver toilets in Westbourne park sidings there are buildings there

 

[hwl]

Toilets, or the lack of, is a red herring here. Does the lack of toilet in the trains make the passengers’ experiences more miserable? Yes. Would the addition of toilets have prevented the incident? No. Was the lack of toilets one of the contributing factors of the incident? No. Would this incident be enough to justify addition of toilets? No, one of the reasons being that they won’t work when power is out.

The design of Elizabeth Line is a metro, maybe more like Southwestern metro routes than the LU, but still a metro. If it warrants toilets, there must be strong enough justifications on the operational pattern, but that is not relevant to this thread.

The number of toilets required after 3-4 hours starts on packed trains equating to at least 1 per carriage which takes up rather a lot of space the rest of the time that could be used by passengers.

In ability to quickly section the unaffected electrification infrastructure will have been one of the issues is the issue here that significantly increased the number of trains and people affected.

 

[sharpener]

In ability to quickly section the unaffected electrification infrastructure will have been one of the issues is the issue here that significantly increased the number of trains and people affected.

Seems ridiculous to me (an electrical engineer) that as mentioned upthread there are no motorised breakers so you need to send out men in vans to do this, given that I have been able to control my central heating over the web for more than a decade.

 

[Rich1974]

Toilets wouldn't have stopped people exiting onto the tracks, once someone opens a door and leaves the others will soon follow just like sheep.

 

[Bigbru]

Are there driver toilets in Westbourne park sidings there are buildings there

No. Also, drivers are not allowed out in Westbourne Park without being escorted.

 

[Acton1991]

I was on the train last night (as previously stated) and the reason people started to de-train was because of the lack of information. For hours we sat there in the dark. There were many Network Rail staff walking past the train with torches but not once did any of them use a megaphone (or even cupped their hands to shout!) at us inside the train to give us an update as to what was going on.

Absolute shambles and an embarrassment. The western section has long been plagued by issues, it's time now for TfL, Network Rail and whoever else to get together and collectively sort out the mess. Stop the blame game and start to deliver for passengers.

The fact that TfL are now charging automatic max fares for passengers after this, and we are now having to wait 10 days for an email response from TfL to get a refund because their online form doesn't provide a tick box to say 'I didn't actually reach my destination because of an incident' is now the next kick in the teeth. Let alone whether passengers will get taxi, bus, tube, bike refunds that enabled them to get to their final destination.

If this was an airline, there would be enforceable compensation, but what will we get from TfL... nowt.

 

[Dan G]

The terminology "emergency isolation" is no longer used and is called an "emergency switch-off", largely to remove ambiguity around the term as isolation suggests electrically safe when it's not necessarily the case.

The plan for GWEP was remote switching and electronic securing, but it all got descoped due to cost so it is largely manually operated switches and lock-off, for which you need to be at least an Authorised Person.

The OLE infrastructure in that area are mostly headspans which means that damage to one road can affect the others; that's why the incident on the Queen's funeral was so impactful, as all 4 roads went down in one incident. This one doesn't appear to be quite as bad with only the Down Main affected.

Regarding re-energisation in a situation like this, firstly you need to fully understand how much has been damaged, then start drafting the isolation paperwork to arrange an isolation around that, then implement the isolation, before you can start turning things back on, to mitigate the risk of inadvertently livening up something that would create a risk of electrocution or further damage or fire or whatever. Again headspans complicate this due to the nature of the insulators being part of the span.

About 9.30pm they were ready to re-energise but the ECR were reluctant to given reports of members of public being on the infrastructure. It was around 11.30pm when the Reliefs were brought back in.

Great post and people should take note of your final paragraph.

If people think two and half hours is too long to wait to make sure people aren't electrocuted by 25,000V, I despair.

I would question how long the battery on a 345 lasts. I expect it was specified rather optimistically (that lighting without external power would only be required for an hour or something).

As for getting off a train and wandering off down the tracks on your own initiative, that is insanely stupid, and I can't understand how anyone can think otherwise.

PS hats off to NR for getting what sounds a proper tangle fixed so quickly that trains were running this morning.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss what happened in relation to this incident, and it is good to see we are now back on topic

If anyone would like to discuss any suggestions/proposals/ideas, such as whether there should be 'Thunderbird' locos available, or increased battery supply capacity, toilets fitted, or anything else of a speculative nature, please use the following thread:

How to mitigate the effects of stranded trains in future incidents

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwml-elizabeth-line-disruption-due-to-ole-down-near-paddington.258947/#post-6531712 With the number of overhead line equipment (OHLE) failures on the Great Western Main Line (GWML), perhaps the case for a 'Thunderbird' stationed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AdamWW]

If people think two and half hours is too long to wait to make sure people aren't electrocuted by 25,000V, I despair.

It sounds like quite a long time to me to sit in a cold, dark train with no information, hoping that at some point someone will come to let you out.

 

[bramling]

The technology is the same regardless. Considering a relatively small battery can power an electric car for miles, why can't the railway even power LCD screens for an extended period?

Also, TFL have put out a statement which appears to attempt to blame GWR:

https://twitter.com/TfL/status/1733079303766605948

That’s a rather pointed statement from TFL. It certainly borders on unprofessional.

 

[Goldfish62]

If people think two and half hours is too long to wait to make sure people aren't electrocuted by 25,000V, I despair.

General view from my railway friends is that the evacuation took far too long and that there's be a major investigation into this mess.

 

[Snow1964]

If people think two and half hours is too long to wait to make sure people aren't electrocuted by 25,000V, I despair.

I would question how long the battery on a 345 lasts. I expect it was specified rather optimistically

If the safety regulator was being tough they would say as some trains took 3-4 hours to evacuate, must not be used until the batteries are uprated to that time.

Someone somewhere has signed off the emergency batteries as sufficient on a 345. How that time was decided I have no idea. If cost cutting was ruling it, batteries would probably only last few minutes.

 

[Bikeman78]

Still stuck! Passengers trying to open the doors to get out, driver doing a good job but has no information to give us all. Lighting has dimmed right down due to no power. Think we will be in for a long night waiting here… with no toilets!

Further update: sat in total darkness now as the train battery has gone. Driver can’t make announcements.

This is why I usually nip to the toilet before using a train without one. Even for a short journey, you never know when you will get stuck for hours.