GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

[RPI]

What are loadings down to Falmouth like?

Its sort of always busy but never really rammed

 

[The exile]

Its sort of always busy but never really rammed

Only time I’ve been on it this year it certainly was rammed.

 

[RPI]

Only time I’ve been on it this year it certainly was rammed.

When was that? Wasn't Falmouth week was it?

 

[Jim]

Sadly often there just isn't enough (available) stock to go round (before you add in the desired strengthening of many services still booked 2/3 car).

With the high passenger flows and many special events on the network, it really is a juggling act and someone, somewhere, will always be left short, be it planned for what would be the ideal amount of coaches or "on the day".

 

[Snow1964]

It really is a juggling act and someone, somewhere, will always be left short, be it planned for what would be the ideal amount of coaches or "on the day".

Always be left short = insufficient stock
Occasionally short = bit less than ideal

Basically if haven’t been able to run every train at required length for months, and have no plan to fix it by next month, then it is weak management or no effective strategy.

Relying on some other operator at some unspecified date in the future having some spare trains that come free, and are suitable isn’t strategic planning, it is desperation. Especially if not clear if they will be come free in 3 weeks, or 3 months, or maybe even 3 years time.

GWR doesn’t help itself by not indicating a plan, as becomes easy for everyone to assume there is no plan. (and DfT announced the contract extension 10 months ago, and we are only talking about stating outcome of 10 months discussion, not actually getting trains into service in 10 months) Not even saying there will be at least one newly introduced train by December makes it look like nothing this year

 

[JonathanH]

Not even saying there will be at least one newly introduced train by December makes it look like nothing this year

There are six units at Reading that GWR would like to 'newly introduce' into service in December, but it isn't in their hands to get them into service.

 

[cactustwirly]

Always be left short = insufficient stock
Occasionally short = bit less than ideal

Basically if haven’t been able to run every train at required length for months, and have no plan to fix it by next month, then it is weak management or no effective strategy.

Relying on some other operator at some unspecified date in the future having some spare trains that come free, and are suitable isn’t strategic planning, it is desperation. Especially if not clear if they will be come free in 3 weeks, or 3 months, or maybe even 3 years time.

GWR doesn’t help itself by not indicating a plan, as becomes easy for everyone to assume there is no plan. (and DfT announced the contract extension 10 months ago, and we are only talking about stating outcome of 10 months discussion, not actually getting trains into service in 10 months) Not even saying there will be at least one newly introduced train by December makes it look like nothing this year

Bear in mind the purse strings are heavily controlled by the DfT. Revenue is 30% down, and GWR was subsidised before COVID.

I suspect there was a lot of cross subsidy from the Thames Valley and Intercity to the local west services as well.

Basically there isn't the money for a brand new fleet of trains. The west is stuck with what it has. It is in a better position than the Southern metro services which have just had 46 trains withdrawn without replacement

 

[Snow1964]

Not a single train is 5 cars on Portsmouth-Cardiff today.

A couple are 4cars, everything else on Wessex line is down to 2car or 3car. Even some like Weymouth-Gloucester are 2car (in the school summer holidays !)

Even some of the trains with 4 character headcodes starting 1 are down to 2car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2022 ==

Basically there isn't the money for a brand new fleet of trains. The west is stuck with what it has. It is in a better position than the Southern metro services which have just had 46 trains withdrawn without replacement

But never saw the southern metro reduced to 2 car trains, even after scrapping 455s, so not a fair comparison

 

[CharlesR]

Even some like Weymouth-Gloucester are 2car (in the school summer holidays !)

Bad enough just like that - but it really isn't helped by Gloucester-Cardiff passengers ferrying on there at the moment to change at Parkway due to the line closure... have rarely salvaged a seat on the line as of late

 

[Jim]

Not a single train is 5 cars on Portsmouth-Cardiff today.

A couple are 4cars, everything else on Wessex line is down to 2car or 3car. Even some like Weymouth-Gloucester are 2car (in the school summer holidays !)

The 0558 Westbury to Cardiff is a prime example of something that in the event has a slim chance of being a 5 car (after the planned attachment at Bristol TM) . The attaching unit 2 car 165 arrives in to Bristol TM at 0638 from Severn Beach and nearly always seems to be stepped up to work 2K06 0644 back to Severn Beach, so if there is a shortage of 166s this 2K06 (which is the last departure from SPM) will often it seem be uncovered for other work.

If I remember correctly, this unit ends at Fratton, so you then by default have 1 3 car formation there vice a 5 straight away.

 

[Kite159]

I see Basingstoke - Reading got reduced to all 3 units being 2 coach sets today.

On a day where buses were replacing trains between Basingstoke & Woking so those services picking up additional passengers who wanted to avoid the large time penalty with the replacement bus.

At least SWR came to the rescue with an hourly train from Reading towards Salisbury until the 20;15, dread to think how busy the trains would be afterwards.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

At least SWR came to the rescue with an hourly train from Reading towards Salisbury until the 20;15, dread to think how busy the trains would be afterwards.

SWR came to the rescue of their own passengers, that’s surely what you would expect them to do.

 

[Kite159]

SWR came to the rescue of their own passengers, that’s surely what you would expect them to do.

Plus any other passengers from Basingstoke who wanted London with the engineering works.

 

[Snow1964]

Why doesn’t it seem sensible long term to have the higher capacity 16x units on Pompey/Cardiff trains which hit the Bristol Peaks and lower capacity 158s on the trains which don’t.

Also by having a mix allows Fratton depot to retain competency on both fleets which helps at times of disruption.

The problem is the Portsmouth-Cardiff route inevitably gets a 3car 16x at peak times, eg todays 1F20 (which leaves Bristol 15:57)

But it is not just the Portsmouth trains, eg todays 2O80 to Weymouth (which leaves Bristol at 16:45) and shares the route to Westbury is a 3car 166

If you think peak hour is bit later, the 17:22 from Bristol (1F25 Cardiff-Portsmouth) is also a 3 car 166

So the idea that Bristol peaks can make do with 3car 16x instead of 4car or 5car trains seems to have become the norm.

But don’t forget these are services serving 7 cities (many with universities), and a number of people are doing 3+ hour journeys (and maybe longer if they have a connection to local train one end), and are you really saying a 165 has suitable comfort levels for 3+ hour journeys. These journeys take longer than say London-Leeds or London-Newcastle (and of course people do local journeys on those routes too eg Durham-York, or Doncaster-Grantham), so using a some people don’t travel whole route argument is very weak

 

[cactustwirly]

The problem is the Portsmouth-Cardiff route inevitably gets a 3car 16x at peak times, eg todays 1F20 (which leaves Bristol 15:57)

But it is not just the Portsmouth trains, eg todays 2O80 to Weymouth (which leaves Bristol at 16:45) and shares the route to Westbury is a 3car 166

If you think peak hour is bit later, the 17:22 from Bristol (1F25 Cardiff-Portsmouth) is also a 3 car 166

So the idea that Bristol peaks can make do with 3car 16x instead of 4car or 5car trains seems to have become the norm.

But don’t forget these are services serving 7 cities (many with universities), and a number of people are doing 3+ hour journeys (and maybe longer if they have a connection to local train one end), and are you really saying a 165 has suitable comfort levels for 3+ hour journeys. These journeys take longer than say London-Leeds or London-Newcastle (and of course people do local journeys on those routes too eg Durham-York, or Doncaster-Grantham), so using a some people don’t travel whole route argument is very weak

So we should go back to 3 car 158s then?
That is the alternative...

 

[Jim]

The problem is the Portsmouth-Cardiff route inevitably gets a 3car 16x at peak times, eg todays 1F20 (which leaves Bristol 15:57)

But it is not just the Portsmouth trains, eg todays 2O80 to Weymouth (which leaves Bristol at 16:45) and shares the route to Westbury is a 3car 166

If you think peak hour is bit later, the 17:22 from Bristol (1F25 Cardiff-Portsmouth) is also a 3 car 166

The first two are booked for only 3 coach trains too now, the latter should be 5 coaches but is often the first victim of short forming due to the fact it couples in Bristol at the time the last chuck out leaves SPM ( I think) [5K06]

Obviously though when you state "The problem is the Portsmouth-Cardiff route inevitably gets a 3car 16x at peak times", remember it serves multiple peak flows, not just Bristol of course.

 

[JohnRegular]

But it is not just the Portsmouth trains, eg todays 2O80 to Weymouth (which leaves Bristol at 16:45) and shares the route to Westbury is a 3car 166

This was regularly a 2-car 158 until relatively recently- I don't know if it was booked as that but it always was when I took it up until maybe a year or so ago. Needless to say it was always packed to the gills. As a 3 car it is still very busy, but to the Turbos' credit they do deal with crowding much better.

 

[REVUpminster]

Paignton doing alright today. 3 166s and 8 150s. In fact 17/20 150s in service. Barnstaple also has it's 3 158s.

 

[Snow1964]

This was regularly a 2-car 158 until relatively recently- I don't know if it was booked as that but it always was when I took it up until maybe a year or so ago. Needless to say it was always packed to the gills. As a 3 car it is still very busy, but to the Turbos' credit they do deal with crowding much better.

And todays Worcester-Weymouth 2O80 is a 2car 165
Is a 165 really acceptable for a 4+ hour route ?
This is the train that departs Bristol 16:45 and just after 5pm from Bath so in the peak hour.

 

[Jim]

And todays Worcester-Weymouth 2O80 is a 2car 165
Is a 165 really acceptable for a 4+ hour route ?
This is the train that departs Bristol 16:45 and just after 5pm from Bath so in the peak hour.

When short of units, what service is acceptable to short form I guess is the lottery faced? Someone will be unhappy I guess! In terms of the question is a 165 really acceptable, is the planned 166 any more acceptable?

 

[JonathanH]

Is a 165 really acceptable for a 4+ hour route ?

Why does the fact that it is a through journey change whether a 165 is acceptable. A 165 is completely acceptable for Worcester to Cheltenham, Gloucester to Bristol, Filton to Bath, Bristol to Trowbridge, Westbury to Weymouth etc.

 

[JohnRegular]

Why does the fact that it is a through journey change whether a 165 is acceptable. A 165 is completely acceptable for Worcester to Cheltenham, Gloucester to Bristol, Filton to Bath, Bristol to Trowbridge, Westbury to Weymouth etc.

Sure, but I'd argue that it is poorly suited for journeys such as Worcester-Bath, or Bristol-Weymouth. I agree it isn't useful to just look at end-to-end journey times, but plenty of longer journeys are made on these units and they don't provide a great experience. A member of the general travelling public making the over 2 hour journey from Bristol to Weymouth on a busy summer weekend on a turbo with failed AC and knackered upholstery might well just drive next time, and tell their friends not to bother with the train.

They are indeed fine for local hops- Severn beach, cornish branches, westbury stoppers, etc.- but they need to be replaced by something more suitable on the regional routes, and themselves sent to replace 150s elsewhere where I'm sure they'll do a perfectly good job.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Sure, but I'd argue that it is poorly suited for journeys such as Worcester-Bath, or Bristol-Weymouth. I agree it isn't useful to just look at end-to-end journey times, but plenty of longer journeys are made on these units and they don't provide a great experience. A member of the general travelling public making the over 2 hour journey from Bristol to Weymouth on a busy summer weekend on a turbo with failed AC and knackered upholstery might well just drive next time, and tell their friends not to bother with the train.

They are indeed fine for local hops- Severn beach, cornish branches, westbury stoppers, etc.- but they need to be replaced by something more suitable on the regional routes, and themselves sent to replace 150s elsewhere where I'm sure they'll do a perfectly good job.

Are the 165s not a step up from the 150/1s with that 2+3 airline seating that used to work the route?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While I don't share @Kite159 's concern that two carriages on Reading Basingstoke will bring the route to its knees, I must say it seems silly that 3-165 is operating Henley (and Windsor but due to the Queen that one probably needs extra capacity) while all three Basingstokes are two carriages today.

 

[cactustwirly]

While I don't share @Kite159 's concern that two carriages on Reading Basingstoke will bring the route to its knees, I must say it seems silly that 3-165 is operating Henley (and Windsor but due to the Queen that one probably needs extra capacity) while all three Basingstokes are two carriages today.

Windsor is always very busy and definitely justifies a 3 car set

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Windsor is always very busy and definitely justifies a 3 car set

Ye okay, but my post was mainly about Henley.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ye okay, but my post was mainly about Henley.

Average loadings on the Henley branch and the Basingstoke line are roughly similar.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Average loadings on the Henley branch and the Basingstoke line are roughly similar.

Fair enough. I personally think the need for long Basingstoke trains isn’t required if 3tp2h XC returns to the route, anyway.

 

[JohnRegular]

Are the 165s not a step up from the 150/1s with that 2+3 airline seating that used to work the route?

Well yes, although I would consider those among the worst trains I have ever travelled on! Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life

Better doesn't mean good enough, though. Perhaps I'm being a little harsh on the Turbos, I'm sure families travelling to Weymouth appreciate the bays of 6. But they're still far from ideal for a route with plenty of hour plus journeys made on it.

 

[Kite159]

While I don't share @Kite159 's concern that two carriages on Reading Basingstoke will bring the route to its knees, I must say it seems silly that 3-165 is operating Henley (and Windsor but due to the Queen that one probably needs extra capacity) while all three Basingstokes are two carriages today.

2 coaches are ok if the mainline was open and XC were running a full timetable (not one train every 2 hours with some extras).

Passengers from Basingstoke have learnt that it is far quicker to go Basingstoke - Reading - Paddington then onto LU then it is using the bus to Woking/Guildford for a train to London, it's OK during the day on Sundays when SWR run an hourly service from Reading to give extra options, but those stop after the 17:12 departure. Can you blame then for wanting to avoid the lottery of replacement buses (i.e. will it be a nice coach with legroom or will it be a double decker service bus) when there is reported issues with RRB supply?