GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

[HamworthyGoods]

Although they have oddly taken to using some 2car 158s for local stopping trains, eg 2V95 Salisbury-Bristol although that only got to Westbury, where it died with problem with the train

One of the Salisbury diagrams is booked for a 2-158.

As I think others have pointed out stock working on the West Routes at Bristol isn’t as simple as people make out. The depot is often at the middle of a trains journey and it’s very easy for stock to become trapped on a route like Cardiff to Portsmouth and not get back to its home depot.

The 158s that stable at Fratton overnight do indeed become captive to that route and don’t naturally work back to St Phillips Marsh. That is why there is a changeover opportunity and a 2 car 158 is booked to work the first Fratton to Bristol which is effectively one of the Salisbury diagrams. Likewise in the evening the 21.45 Bristol to Portsmouth is a 2 car 158 again running in the daytime Salisbury path.

There’s nothing odd about it it’s planned for a reason however strange that maybe to someone who doesn’t know railway operations.

Hope the explanation helps.

 

[cactustwirly]

Three Portsmouth diagrams are using 3-165s today where they'd have previously used a 166. While similar, I personally (and I know others do too, @cactustwirly will no doubt back me up here) find the 166 to have a far more superior environment, with more 2+2 areas including double the former first class seating (and those sections have tables), half tables and a sort of half vestibule situation unlike the 165s. You don't have a single thing to rest a coffee or laptop on with a 165. I do hope some distinguishing diagrams will be created to keep 3-165 and 166 on shorter and longer distance Turbo diagrams respectively. Perhaps when GWR are in a better position to organise their stock.

I was actually one of the few forumers not to mind the conversion of most services (planned at one point to be all, now it's been scaled back to about a 50/50 split) from 158 to 166, as I found the 166 to be a good compromise between comfort and the need for more capacity around major commuting hubs, but I think the 3-165 is a bit too far. Maybe one every now and then is fair enough as GWR's fleet is troublesome and difficult, but today only two 166s are on the route.

The 166s have better sound proofing and the interior is less dense than the 165s. They are nicer definitely!

Historically they had separate diagrams and were used on North Downs services for the extra luggage space and Oxford fast/Cotswolds services.

I believe the 3 car 165s were just used on the Thames Valley stoppers with a few 166s.

Obviously with most of the 3 car 165s based on Reading, and only a handful in the West it is probably harder to keep them separate

 

[FGW_DID]

Three Portsmouth diagrams are using 3-165s today where they'd have previously used a 166. While similar, I personally (and I know others do too, @cactustwirly will no doubt back me up here) find the 166 to have a far more superior environment, with more 2+2 areas including double the former first class seating (and those sections have tables), half tables and a sort of half vestibule situation unlike the 165s. You don't have a single thing to rest a coffee or laptop on with a 165. I do hope some distinguishing diagrams will be created to keep 3-165 and 166 on shorter and longer distance Turbo diagrams respectively. Perhaps when GWR are in a better position to organise their stock.

I was actually one of the few forumers not to mind the conversion of most services (planned at one point to be all, now it's been scaled back to about a 50/50 split) from 158 to 166, as I found the 166 to be a good compromise between comfort and the need for more capacity around major commuting hubs, but I think the 3-165 is a bit too far. Maybe one every now and then is fair enough as GWR's fleet is troublesome and difficult, but today only two 166s are on the route.

Perhaps, but I’ve seen 3-165 become very common over the past few weeks. That said, I haven’t seen any pairs of 2 car 165s for a while, and they were a really unfortunate arrangement that were becoming pretty common this time last year, or god forbid one on its own.

All traction have their own specific diagrams. It isn't surprising though, to see a 165(3) being utilised on a 166 diagram. There are currently 2x 166 away at Wolverton on refresh with a third away at Wabtec Doncaster on C Exam. That's why two 165(3) went straight West to SPM from Wolverton instead of returning to Reading, to help cover for those units away.

 

[JohnRegular]

Perhaps, but I’ve seen 3-165 become very common over the past few weeks. That said, I haven’t seen any pairs of 2 car 165s for a while, and they were a really unfortunate arrangement that were becoming pretty common this time last year, or god forbid one on its own.

Honestly, whilst I agree the 3 car 165s are even less suited to the route than 166s (no bike space for another thing!) at this point I'm just glad to have a train running, and three carriages isn't bad going.

2x165 is a win in my book - four entire carriages, absolute luxury!

One plus of the 165s, albeit not one that matters at this time of year, is that the air cooling actually works. On a hot summer's day I'd take that over a table every time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Honestly, whilst I agree the 3 car 165s are even less suited to the route than 166s (no bike space for another thing!) at this point I'm just glad to have a train running, and three carriages isn't bad going.

2x165 is a win in my book - four entire carriages, absolute luxury!

One plus of the 165s, albeit not one that matters at this time of year, is that the air cooling actually works. On a hot summer's day I'd take that over a table every time.

However, it’s now December, and a very cold one at that. I travel from Cardiff to Fratton at 3.5 hours and I want a table And I don’t think it’d be spoilt of me to want an armrest either.

 

[JohnRegular]

However, it’s now December, and a very cold one at that. I travel from Cardiff to Fratton at 3.5 hours and I want a table And I don’t think it’d be spoilt of me to want an armrest either.

I don't disagree - the Turbos really are pretty pants for the job that's been forced upon them, and better is required.

However, until the route gets the stock it clearly deserves, myself and (I strongly suspect) most of the other punters on a crowded platform at Bristol or Bath or Southampton are hoping first that something turns up, second that we can get on, third that we may be able to sit down and retain some amount of personal space and only then is there scope to worry about ones personal priorities such as getting a table, armrests, or indeed air cooling!

I certainly don't think it's spoiled of you to want a vaguely comfortable experience on this route, but alas we have to deal with the current reality and I imagine most people can't tell the difference between a 3 car 165 and a 3 car 166... unless they're trying to bring a bike on board.

 

[Anonymous10]

I don't disagree - the Turbos really are pretty pants for the job that's been forced upon them, and better is required.

However, until the route gets the stock it clearly deserves, myself and (I strongly suspect) most of the other punters on a crowded platform at Bristol or Bath or Southampton are hoping first that something turns up, second that we can get on, third that we may be able to sit down and retain some amount of personal space and only then is there scope to worry about ones personal priorities such as getting a table, armrests, or indeed air cooling!

I certainly don't think it's spoiled of you to want a vaguely comfortable experience on this route, but alas we have to deal with the current reality and I imagine most people can't tell the difference between a 3 car 165 and a 3 car 166... unless they're trying to bring a bike on board.

Quite, I remember travelling to a event same weekend as Glastonbury during the strikes in 2022 and was glad just to get on the train at Parkway. Was a two carriage 165 to weymouth by Bath it was absolutely packed with no room to move until we passed Castle Cary station. That experience made me grateful and even made me happy to be on a 5 cloach 444 with no toilets after a day of being at tankfest, (which also has a distinct lack of bogs).

 

[Jim]

It is an aim to keep 3 car 165s off of the route, but the fact is one isn't really much more suited anywhere else:

Not suited Severn Beach or Devon Metro due to no bike space
Not suited to Pompey or Weymouth route due to the environment onboard not being quite so "nice".

That leaves them pretty much no stock diagrams they can work where someone won't be unhappy.

Pompey route specifically, unfortunately due to less 166s than needed constantly available, the ideology of keeping 3 car 165s away from the route is not really something that is easy to do currently. It should also be remembered that the Fratton starter Pompey diagrams are captive (1F06 1F08), so it can take a few days to cycle one out.


When the 3 car 165s first came over, a conscious effort was made to keep them off.of that kind of work, these days it's good to see a 3 car unit turn up at all it seems (judging by the above comments).

 

[Dan G]

Everyone just puts bikes against the door opposite the platform. *Usually* is ok!

 

[REVUpminster]

I'd have the three car 165s at Exeter and maybe a couple of 2 car 165s with the bicycle space for Okehampton.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'd have the three car 165s at Exeter and maybe a couple of 2 car 165s with the bicycle space for Okehampton.

150s aren’t any use for the Bristol area unfortunately and Exeter also doesn’t do maintenance on 16x.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is an aim to keep 3 car 165s off of the route, but the fact is one isn't really much more suited anywhere else:

Not suited Severn Beach or Devon Metro due to no bike space
Not suited to Pompey or Weymouth route due to the environment onboard not being quite so "nice".

That leaves them pretty much no stock diagrams they can work where someone won't be unhappy.

Pompey route specifically, unfortunately due to less 166s than needed constantly available, the ideology of keeping 3 car 165s away from the route is not really something that is easy to do currently. It should also be remembered that the Fratton starter Pompey diagrams are captive (1F06 1F08), so it can take a few days to cycle one out.


When the 3 car 165s first came over, a conscious effort was made to keep them off.of that kind of work, these days it's good to see a 3 car unit turn up at all it seems (judging by the above comments).

The Weymouth route is the secondary, stopping Westbury Bristol service to the Portsmouth express, so a 165 is fine on that.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The Weymouth route is the secondary, stopping Westbury Bristol service to the Portsmouth express, so a 165 is fine on that.

Its also quite popular with bikes, so not really.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Its also quite popular with bikes, so not really.

The 2-165s in pairs would be ideal for that route, as they have large bike racks. That said, on a long distance route I think passenger comfort should be put before cycle convenienceZ

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The 2-165s in pairs would be ideal for that route, as they have large bike racks. That said, on a long distance route I think passenger comfort should be put before cycle convenienceZ

The two are intrinsically linked, as without the cycle racks the cycles end up on the saloons and impacting passenger comfort.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The two are intrinsically linked, as without the cycle racks the cycles end up on the saloons and impacting passenger comfort.

Very true admittedly

 

[Anonymous10]

Very true admittedly

There is currently no good option for the Weymouth line right now in my experience, best case is a 158 turns up, which is unlikely.

 

[JohnRegular]

The Weymouth route is the secondary, stopping Westbury Bristol service to the Portsmouth express, so a 165 is fine on that.

It really only fills the role of stopper between Westbury and Bristol by default, there are still plenty of longer journeys made despite that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It really only fills the role of stopper between Westbury and Bristol by default, there are still plenty of longer journeys made despite that.

And it’s not actually the stopper any more, that falls to the Bristol to Warminster / Salisbury service. The Weymouth train only calls additionally at Keyndham / Oldfield Park compared to the Portsmouths (which call there Sundays).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The 2-165s in pairs would be ideal for that route, as they have large bike racks. That said, on a long distance route I think passenger comfort should be put before cycle convenienceZ

Operationally a 2x 165 formation is less than ideal, as Castle Cary platform 3 only takes 3 cars max and the Dorset halts require local door operation. I believe there’s also something peculiar about Yetminster but I can’t quite put my finger on it.

And it’s not actually the stopper any more, that falls to the Bristol to Warminster / Salisbury service. The Weymouth train only calls additionally at Keyndham / Oldfield Park compared to the Portsmouths (which call there Sundays).

Except when they also stop at Avoncliff and Freshford during the peaks.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Except when they also stop at Avoncliff and Freshford during the peaks.

Well if we are taking about the peaks so do the Portsmouths! 06.01 ex Pompey for example.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Well if we are taking about the peaks so do the Portsmouths! 06.01 ex Pompey for example.

This is true, although I don’t think there is an equivalent in the other direction?

One slight oddity I’ve noticed with the new timetable incidentally is that a small number of Portsmouth trains still call at Dilton Marsh despite the new Warminster/Salisbury services. Presumably it’s to suit the needs of the local users?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This is true, although I don’t think there is an equivalent in the other direction?

One slight oddity I’ve noticed with the new timetable incidentally is that a small number of Portsmouth trains still call at Dilton Marsh despite the new Warminster/Salisbury services. Presumably it’s to suit the needs of the local users?

The 17.27 from Cardiff calls at Keynsham is probably the nearest equivalent in the other direction.

I think the original Dilton stops in the Portsmouths were related to student traffic and local commuting.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Portsmouths have been used to consistent 158s for years though, whereas Weymouth was a mainstay of 150/1s until 2018-ish, and I find that a factor in it worthy of consideration, mind.

 

[Anonymous10]

Portsmouths have been used to consistent 158s for years though, whereas Weymouth was a mainstay of 150/1s until 2018-ish, and I find that a factor in it worthy of consideration, mind.

Granted however now there is a stopping service there's nothing to say both long distance journeys can't have something resembling appropriate rolling stock but that's off topic.

 

[Snow1964]

Operationally a 2x 165 formation is less than ideal, as Castle Cary platform 3 only takes 3 cars max and the Dorset halts require local door operation. I believe there’s also something peculiar about Yetminster but I can’t quite put my finger on it.

Considering the line was closed for week or so, earlier in the year for track replacement wasn't a lot of joined up thinking to allow 4 car trains to call at all the stations. Bearing in mind these were originally Broad gauge double track, and now many of smaller stations only use single platform in both directions could easily have done some short extensions at remaining platforms.

Many of the Weymouth services run to Gloucester, and although travelling end to end (which takes nearly 3.5 hours) is unlikely, many passengers will be travelling 2+ hours to connect at Bristol etc. I question if 165s which were built (and still are) configured for short journeys are best option anyway.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Considering the line was closed for week or so, earlier in the year for track replacement wasn't a lot of joined up thinking to allow 4 car trains to call at all the stations. Bearing in mind these were originally Broad gauge double track, and now many of smaller stations only use single platform in both directions could easily have done some short extensions at remaining platforms

Nothing to do with lack of joined up thinking. Everything to do with lack of funding.

Network Rail can’t just build things the DfT haven’t approved funding for and in case you haven’t noticed they are hardly splashing the cash at the moment.

 

[RedPostJunc]

All traction have their own specific diagrams. It isn't surprising though, to see a 165(3) being utilised on a 166 diagram. There are currently 2x 166 away at Wolverton on refresh with a third away at Wabtec Doncaster on C Exam. That's why two 165(3) went straight West to SPM from Wolverton instead of returning to Reading, to help cover for those units away.

Which 166 is at Doncaster? If it isn't 166210, what is happening to it? I read (somewhere on this forum) that 166216 was out of action for months earlier this year, with bits being robbed off it to keep the other 166s in service. Then something happened to 166210 and it needed rewiring. At that point, bits off 166210 were used to put 166216 back into service.

 

[FGW_DID]

Which 166 is at Doncaster? If it isn't 166210, what is happening to it? I read (somewhere on this forum) that 166216 was out of action for months earlier this year, with bits being robbed off it to keep the other 166s in service. Then something happened to 166210 and it needed rewiring. At that point, bits off 166210 were used to put 166216 back into service.

166203 is the unit away at Doncaster. 166210 is stopped at SPM. Sounds like its 210's turn as the depot 'Christmas tree'. Nothing unusual about a 'rolling rob' from units when they are stopped to enable another unit to enter service, it happens all the time. The problems occur when you end up with several units stopped with the same issue and the items you need still aren't in stock!

 

[Snow1964]

The problems occur when you end up with several units stopped with the same issue and the items you need still aren't in stock!

But with one unit away for refurb, and another at Doncaster, even a single unit being robbed can lead to short forms.

They simply don't have enough spare units to even rob parts from one, without causing short forms, or substitutions by inferior older trains