GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[Deepgreen]

That's because there wasn't the range of plastics available that would stand up to the conditions. Wood is cheap and durable. In truth, unless the design of the 3rd rail contact system designed out the risk, (the only real alternative is a bottom contact system as used on the DLR, there's no chance of making it safe enough for universal acceptance. The boarding around the NYC subway's 3rd rail only provides frost protection, and electrocution of individuals occurs there as in the UK.

Yes, the SR system simply had wooden boards placed adjacent to the third rail rather than actually encapsulating it. I'm pretty sure I have already seen lengths of third rail covered in bright yellow plastic on the underside and part way up the sides at some locations, so I would suggest just an extension of that. I imagine recycled plastics these days are tough enough to withstand delivery and installation handling especially if the handling is modiified to use some form of padding. The melting point of plastics can surely be high enough to cope with normal third rail temperatures (otherwise icing would be no problem). Just a thought - obviously no system is perfect and risks would still remain but I would think that it would provide enough mitigation to allow a case to be made for strategic infilling. Let's also remember that OHLE is not completely safe, sadly, with graffiti and other incursions occurring. Of course, infilling would not only reduce diesel mileage but would allow many more rolling stock deployment options.

 

[geoffk]

Just a thought - wouldn't North Downs be a better fit for SWR or Southern? In which case, a hybrid emu with battery capability (IPEMU I think it's called but others will know more) might fit the bill and has already been tested in Essex. The non-electrified parts of the North Downs Line (Wokingham to Ash, approx. 13 miles and Shalford Jn to Reigate, around 17 miles) would be run on battery power. Have the tests done to date shown that this would be a feasible option? As for rolling stock, the class of 30 class 379 units are in store somewhere, off lease.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Just a thought - wouldn't North Downs be a better fit for SWR or Southern? In which case, a hybrid emu with battery capability (IPEMU I think it's called but others will know more) might fit the bill and has already been tested in Essex. The non-electrified parts of the North Downs Line (Wokingham to Ash, approx. 13 miles and Shalford Jn to Reigate, around 17 miles) would be run on battery power. Have the tests done to date shown that this would be a feasible option? As for rolling stock, the class of 30 class 379 units are in store somewhere, off lease.

The service on the North Downs is based from the Reading end, providing early morning connections from the Western (including out the sleeper) to flights from Gatwick. GWR is the only operator with stabling and traincrew at the Reading end so no it wouldn’t make sense to transfer it to an operator at the wrong end of the route.

 

[43096]

The service on the North Downs is based from the Reading end, providing early morning connections from the Western (including out the sleeper) to flights from Gatwick. GWR is the only operator with stabling and traincrew at the Reading end so no it wouldn’t make sense to transfer it to an operator at the wrong end of the route.

SWR manage to run early trains from Reading to Waterloo (start 0540) with units berthed at Reading overnight and presumably staff being taxi’d. There would be TUPE of staff from GWR to SWR if the service transferred, so SWR would presumably then have Reading based crew.

 

[geoffk]

The service on the North Downs is based from the Reading end, providing early morning connections from the Western (including out the sleeper) to flights from Gatwick. GWR is the only operator with stabling and traincrew at the Reading end so no it wouldn’t make sense to transfer it to an operator at the wrong end of the route.

Understood, but that wouldn't invalidate the rest of my suggestion as GWR already operates emus.

 

[Minstral25]

The service on the North Downs is based from the Reading end, providing early morning connections from the Western (including out the sleeper) to flights from Gatwick. GWR is the only operator with stabling and traincrew at the Reading end so no it wouldn’t make sense to transfer it to an operator at the wrong end of the route.

A unit starts in service from Redhill at around 04:45 to Gatwick to provide first service from Gatwick to Reading at 05:10. There is a Q path in case a second unit is required.

I assume GWR have borrowed stabling plus have staff out stationed (or borrow Southern staff), the reverse can be done by Southern

 

[HamworthyGoods]

A unit starts in service from Redhill at around 04:45 to Gatwick to provide first service from Gatwick to Reading at 05:10. There is a Q path in case a second unit is required.

I assume GWR have borrowed stabling plus have staff out stationed (or borrow Southern staff), the reverse can be done by Southern

Yes one unit stables overnight at Redhill and seven units overnight at Reading. GWR have conductors at Redhill and also use Southern Redhill drivers.

So my point stands it is a Reading based operation to meet the traffic objectives of the line.

 

[JN114]

I assume GWR have borrowed stabling plus have staff out stationed (or borrow Southern staff), the reverse can be done by Southern

GWR have 2 stabling sidings at Redhill (“Redhill Loco Sidings”), and a very small depot of guards at Redhill; all of which is a continuation of arrangements that have been in place since Thames Trains days at least. There are 2x daily driver diagrams on paper outsourced to Southern drivers at Redhill, a small handful of which have 16x and North Downs Route knowledge - but those turns these days are more often than not covered by Reading drivers.

The unit currently outbased overnight at Redhill is babysat by a night turn Reading driver, who works last train over and first train back.

Neither Southern nor SWR have appropriate stabling facilities at/near “their” sections of the route that aren’t already to capacity; so both would need to still majority run things from the Reading end; but with the additional complication of not then being integrated into the existing GWR structure at Reading.

 

[Deepgreen]

GWR have 2 stabling sidings at Redhill (“Redhill Loco Sidings”), and a very small depot of guards at Redhill; all of which is a continuation of arrangements that have been in place since Thames Trains days at least. There are 2x daily driver diagrams on paper outsourced to Southern drivers at Redhill, a small handful of which have 16x and North Downs Route knowledge - but those turns these days are more often than not covered by Reading drivers.

The unit currently outbased overnight at Redhill is babysat by a night turn Reading driver, who works last train over and first train back.

Neither Southern nor SWR have appropriate stabling facilities at/near “their” sections of the route that aren’t already to capacity; so both would need to still majority run things from the Reading end; but with the additional complication of not then being integrated into the existing GWR structure at Reading.

I don't think it matters much who runs it, and GWR obviously have the basis for it, but it's more important what stock is used, and any TOC can lease whatever they need, in theory.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

SWR manage to run early trains from Reading to Waterloo (start 0540) with units berthed at Reading overnight and presumably staff being taxi’d. There would be TUPE of staff from GWR to SWR if the service transferred, so SWR would presumably then have Reading based crew.

Correct but they are no more bay platforms left at Reading to stable strains in overnight, these are fully utilised by SWR.

 

[43096]

Correct but they are no more bay platforms left at Reading to stable strains in overnight, these are fully utilised by SWR.

There’s two platforms occupied by SWR stock? Leaves one.

 

[Deepgreen]

Staff are trained on DC lines so not sure where the risk is with new third rail?

Indeed, and the risk is not so much that it is a new, unknown danger, but that it is applied to areas that don't currently have it. I perceive that risk increase to staff to be very small given that the staff involved will be familiar with third rail from nearby locations, but the local public will not be. Nevertheless I think protection at foot crossings, etc. should be able to handle all but the most wilful of trespassers. I really think the small increase in risk is far outweighed by the other considerations.

 

[Class455]

The service on the North Downs is based from the Reading end, providing early morning connections from the Western (including out the sleeper) to flights from Gatwick. GWR is the only operator with stabling and traincrew at the Reading end so no it wouldn’t make sense to transfer it to an operator at the wrong end of the route.

I did think that the North Downs Line service could be split at Guildford in future if the NDL was electrified, with Southern’s Reigate to Victoria service being extended to Guildford and GWR only running between Reading and Guildford. But the reasons you’ve mentioned above are very valid so I can see why this may not prove popular unless GWR kept the Reading to Gatwick’s in this scenario.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I did think that the North Downs Line service could be split at Guildford in future if the NDL was electrified, with Southern’s Reigate to Victoria service being extended to Guildford and GWR only running between Reading and Guildford. But the reasons you’ve mentioned above are very valid so I can see why this may not prove popular unless GWR kept the Reading to Gatwick’s in this scenario.

Indeed there is a big cross Guildford flow the Airport trains are the busiest trains throughout.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I perceive that risk increase to staff to be very small given that the staff involved will be familiar with third rail from nearby locations, but the local public will not be.

That would surprise me. Nowhere on thye NDL is further than 5 miles from a 3rd rail line, and the popuklations of East Berks, Surrey, and Susex have had 100 years to get used to the idea that railways in that area are electrified. Indeed, compared with those members of the local population who are aware that railways can be electrified, I would imagine only a few would know that the NDL was an exception.

Was there a high incidence of electrocutions as a result of the relatively recent East Grinstead and Hastings lines electrifications?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm pretty sure I have already seen lengths of third rail covered in bright yellow plastic on the underside and part way up the sides at some locations, so I would suggest just an extension of that. I imagine recycled plastics these days are tough enough to withstand delivery and installation handling especially if the handling is modiified to use some form of padding. The melting point of plastics can surely be high enough to cope with normal third rail temperatures (otherwise icing would be no problem).

Those plastic covers on the lower part of the rail are for a separate purpose, they’re to indicate that a short circuiting device must not be used on that length of track.

There are some yellow plastic kickboards around though, they do exist.

 

[Sebastian O]

SWR manage to run early trains from Reading to Waterloo (start 0540) with units berthed at Reading overnight and presumably staff being taxi’d. There would be TUPE of staff from GWR to SWR if the service transferred, so SWR would presumably then have Reading based crew.

Believe this is a night turn that does their first run as the last service down to Reading (2350 ex Waterloo), kip, take 0542 back to Ascot, pass to Farnham and finish.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There’s two platforms occupied by SWR stock? Leaves one.

Network Rail requires one platform to be left vacant overnight on the Southern side to allow for test trains possessions etc.

Nearly all stations have this restriction overnight.

 

[Bumpkin]

Believe this is a night turn that does their first run as the last service down to Reading (2350 ex Waterloo), kip, take 0542 back to Ascot, pass to Farnham and finish.

The night turn is a Waterloo driver and commercial guard turn who take the train (0542) all the way to Waterloo before signing off, no reliefs at Ascot.

 

[fgwrich]

There’s two platforms occupied by SWR stock? Leaves one.

A Turbo often spends a night in one of them - I used to work night's in Reading and you'd often hear whichever Turbo be fired up along with the compressor speed up to slowly coax it into life, along with the subsequent white smoke. Usually Platform 4.

 

[meld3]

As predicted, now confirmed cancelled from GWR on another forum:

"As it's now been announced on our Management briefing, I can confirm that the DfT have cancelled the lease for the 19 class 769/9 units as of April 23. The units will return to Porterbrook."

 

[fgwrich]

As predicted, now confirmed cancelled from GWR on another forum:

"As it's now been announced on our Management briefing, I can confirm that the DfT have cancelled the lease for the 19 class 769/9 units as of April 23. The units will return to Porterbrook."

Great, another railway waste!

Anyone for a load of lightly used MAN D2876’s?

While the costs and leasing of the conversion of the units may not have come from the farepayer, the infrastructure improvements made for these will. Hopefully, they will eventually be used by 387s etc but until then, it’s another rather large waste of time and money.

 

[JonathanH]

Makes a lot of sense. 14 3-car 165s maintain the timetable on the North Downs, Basingstoke, Henley and Bourne End routes. Hopefully the 2018 timetable and running times can be restored on the North Downs Line.

 

[cactustwirly]

As predicted, now confirmed cancelled from GWR on another forum:

"As it's now been announced on our Management briefing, I can confirm that the DfT have cancelled the lease for the 19 class 769/9 units as of April 23. The units will return to Porterbrook."

Can the NDL now go back to the faster turbo timings now?

 

[JonathanH]

It will be interesting to see whether the six 769s that GWR was focusing attention on go to Long Marston soon in the new year or straight to scrap.

I assume there are some very happy train crew at Reading now who don't have to work these units.

 

[jackot]

As predicted, now confirmed cancelled from GWR on another forum:

"As it's now been announced on our Management briefing, I can confirm that the DfT have cancelled the lease for the 19 class 769/9 units as of April 23. The units will return to Porterbrook."

Complete waste of time, money and resources then. Not exactly breaking news, but something that has been predicted for a while now.

 

[JonathanH]

Complete waste of time, money and resources then.

No, only since March 2020. The idea was a reasonable one initially but once they didn't work, and it was obvious that demand would never justify the use of the units, then it has been a waste of money.

 

[fgwrich]

It will be interesting to see whether the six 769s that GWR was focusing attention on go to Long Marston soon in the new year or straight to scrap.

Likely to go to Long Marston I’d have thought (to join their already sheeted over classmates) until Porterbrook decides what to do with them. However, with the railway in its current state, i don’t think it would be much of a surprise if they did make the trip to Newport.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As predicted, now confirmed cancelled from GWR on another forum:

"As it's now been announced on our Management briefing, I can confirm that the DfT have cancelled the lease for the 19 class 769/9 units as of April 23. The units will return to Porterbrook."

And nothing of value was lost. I just hope none of them wind up with Northern.

 

[hooverboy]

And nothing of value was lost. I just hope none of them wind up with Northern.

Well, they are ultimately porterbrook's liability to "sweat off".
The ball is firmly in their court re: 769's.
There is no bad product,only a bad price.These things either go for scrap,or the lease rates on them will be on a par with pacers when they were first taken private.
Given their reliability,probably even less.
There may well be some bidder for a bunch of 4 car sets at £50k a set per year,rather than £25k per vehicle.

If I am being kind to these things, they do have quite good overhead baggage space,so could be used on something like nottingham to skeggy year round which has an absolutely notorious fluctuation in footfall.