GWR Class 800

[jimm]

Ok. Still calling them all 800’s until I get my head around which is which!

I wouldn't fret about it. Other than the numbers on the set ends and the gradually-disappearing cloth initially used to cover the seats of the 800s, there's not anything that obvious to differentiate between 800s and 802s - which is the way GWR wants it to appear to the average passenger when they step on board any IET.

 

[Master29]

I wouldn't fret about it. Other than the numbers on the set ends and the gradually-disappearing cloth initially used to cover the seats of the 800s, there's not anything that obvious to differentiate between 800s and 802s - which is the way GWR wants it to appear to the average passenger when they step on board any IET.

One wonders if they`ll ever merge into one class either 800, 802 or a new number entirely from 803 onwards in the future (distant or not too distant) which would satisfy anoraks like me and as you say continue to mean nothing to your average GWR Joe. You heard it here first folks.....Or not.

 

[JN114]

One wonders if they`ll ever merge into one class either 800, 802 or a new number entirely from 803 onwards in the future (distant or not too distant) which would satisfy anoraks like me and as you say continue to mean nothing to your average GWR Joe. You heard it here first folks.....Or not.

No. The differences mean nothing to those that use the trains; but the contractual arrangements are significantly different. There needs to be an easy way of distinguishing them from an operations point of view.

 

[43096]

I wouldn't fret about it. Other than the numbers on the set ends and the gradually-disappearing cloth initially used to cover the seats of the 800s, there's not anything that obvious to differentiate between 800s and 802s - which is the way GWR wants it to appear to the average passenger when they step on board any IET.

The way DfT wants it to appear, you mean.

 

[TractiveEffort]

The way DfT wants it to appear, you mean.

Not sure the DfT have any say in the WoE contract now, it is hugely different from the IEP contract.

 

[43096]

Not sure the DfT have any say in the WoE contract now, it is hugely different from the IEP contract.

DfT had a huge say in the 802 spec, essentially to avoid the embarrassment of GWR procuring something better than the 800s.

 

[bastien]

DfT had a huge say in the 802 spec, essentially to avoid the embarrassment of GWR procuring something better than the 800s.

Isn't that just forum folklore?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, it actually happened. I was involved in the debate - the DfT were in a bit of a panic about it.

It is fair to say that the 802 units would not have got the nod if they weren’t identical inside.

 

[jimm]

The way DfT wants it to appear, you mean.

Surely not... isn't everything that is wrong west of the bufferstops at Paddington (which appears to be absolutely everything, on the basis of your posts) the fault of GWR/First Group? (sarcasm alert).

Having had 15 years of a lottery where a Turbo, 180 or HST (high or low density) could be working a service, people where I live are now getting a consistent product (bar a few remaining Turbo duties).

There are only so many things you can do with a metal tube full of seats - and if the DfT insisted on an interior that did not repeat the awful, too-tall tombstone seats of 'refreshed' FGW/GWR HSTs, then good on them.

 

[LeeLivery]

Hardly travel out West, so yesterday was the first time travelling on a 800. I now understand the seat complaints. Other than that though, I don't find them bad. Bins though. Where are they?

No, it actually happened. I was involved in the debate - the DfT were in a bit of a panic about it.

It is fair to say that the 802 units would not have got the nod if they weren’t identical inside.

That is incredible.

 

[jimm]

That is incredible.

Why? Large amounts of our taxes get poured into the railways every year.

There may be a debate to be had over whether the current micro-managed approach or the old one British Rail operated under - the government gave it a budget each year and left the BR board to get on with deciding how to use it - is better, or something else entirely, but that is another thread in itself.

Detailed bureaucratic/political scrutiny of rolling stock specifications is not a uniquely British phenomenon. In some cases in Germany, the regional governments have specified, ordered and own the trains used on the services they control contracts for.

 

[LeeLivery]

Why? Large amounts of our taxes get poured into the railways every year.

There may be a debate to be had over whether the current micro-managed approach or the old one British Rail operated under - the government gave it a budget each year and left the BR board to get on with deciding how to use it - is better, or something else entirely, but that is another thread in itself.

Detailed bureaucratic/political scrutiny of rolling stock specifications is not a uniquely British phenomenon. In some cases in Germany, the regional governments have specified, ordered and own the trains used on the services they control contracts for.

No, it's not the idea that they were involved that's incredible; it's the idea they basically said: "ours are a bit cr*p inside so, to save us shame, your ones should be equally cr*p". Even though the average passenger doesn't have a clue the DfT had any involvement.

 

[trebor79]

GWR should have told them to get lost in that case and either procured something else entirely, or refurbished some HSTs.

 

[samuelmorris]

GWR should have told them to get lost in that case and either procured something else entirely, or refurbished some HSTs.

Unfortunately not possible. As far as I know DfT have to sign off on any new stock for private operators do they not?

 

[Railperf]

HST is generally around 7 minutes to get to 125mph. Fastest I've managed on a class 800 is 3m 30 to 125mph. Haven't had the chance yet to do 0-125 on a class 802 as they are slightly quicker.

I recorded 0 to 100mph (160 km/h) in 1 min 55 secs, and 0 to 125mph (201 kmh) in 3 min 12 seconds for a pair of Class 802 sets in electric mode. To compare- my fastest HST acceleration figures are from an ex Grand Central set comprised of two power cars and a short rake of 6 MK3 coaches. 0 to 100mph was an anazing 3 mins 11 seconds and 0 to 125mph was achieved in 4 mins 50 seconds! There is a difference in performance based on the amount of trailer coaches. East Coast LNER HST sets have 9 coaches and therefore more weight and a lower power to weight ratio.

 

[AlexNL]

GWR should have told them to get lost in that case and either procured something else entirely, or refurbished some HSTs.

That would probably have led to FirstGroup losing their flagship franchise, with it going out to tender again. And the next franchisee would've had to agree to DfT's terms anyway.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Unfortunately not possible. As far as I know DfT have to sign off on any new stock for private operators do they not?

Any rolling stock contract for a franchised operator needs DfT sign off, as per the FA. You can’t tell them to get lost, unless you don’t want to be the operator anymore.

 

[Master29]

I recorded 0 to 100mph (160 km/h) in 1 min 55 secs, and 0 to 125mph (201 kmh) in 3 min 12 seconds for a pair of Class 802 sets in electric mode. To compare- my fastest HST acceleration figures are from an ex Grand Central set comprised of two power cars and a short rake of 6 MK3 coaches. 0 to 100mph was an anazing 3 mins 11 seconds and 0 to 125mph was achieved in 4 mins 50 seconds! There is a difference in performance based on the amount of trailer coaches. East Coast LNER HST sets have 9 coaches and therefore more weight and a lower power to weight ratio.

That sounds more plausible with HST acceleration I mean. People keep saying it takes 10 minutes with 8 carriages but they`re talking about the start up from Paddington which isn`t accurate as they don`t start full acceleration until around 5 minutes into the journey around North Pole area. That makes your HST acceleration figures seem about right to me.

 

[hexagon789]

That sounds more plausible with HST acceleration I mean. People keep saying it takes 10 minutes with 8 carriages but they`re talking about the start up from Paddington which isn`t accurate as they don`t start full acceleration until around 5 minutes into the journey around North Pole area. That makes your HST acceleration figures seem about right to me.

I've posted this before but I'll repeat it here:

From BR's own figures, a 2+7 HST set would do:

0-100mph in 3 mins 15 secs
100-125mph in a further 4 mins

Or 0-125mph in 7 mins 15 secs overall. I believe the distance it takes to reach 125mph in a 2+7 HST is about 13-14 miles.

 

[jimm]

No, it's not the idea that they were involved that's incredible; it's the idea they basically said: "ours are a bit cr*p inside so, to save us shame, your ones should be equally cr*p". Even though the average passenger doesn't have a clue the DfT had any involvement.

How about you actually state what else you think should have been done with the interiors instead?

Rather than treating us to nothing more than (completely unnecessary) foul language - how considerate of you to blank out the letter 'a' - makes all the difference.

 

[43096]

How about you actually state what else you think should have been done with the interiors instead?

Rather than treating us to nothing more than (completely unnecessary) foul language - how considerate of you to blank out the letter 'a' - makes all the difference.

He’s right though.

Three things:
- proper catering facilities for standard class
- better seats with more padding
- proper high quality seat covers, not flat cloth or GWR grey “AstroTurf”.

Really shouldn’t be too much to ask given the cost of travelling on them.

 

[samuelmorris]

How about you actually state what else you think should have been done with the interiors instead?

Rather than treating us to nothing more than (completely unnecessary) foul language - how considerate of you to blank out the letter 'a' - makes all the difference.

The * is probably on the assumption there may be a profanity filter on the forum that would otherwise censor the post, not for the benefit of any potentially fragile minds reading it. Frankly I wouldn't even think twice about seeing this word to describe something that popular opinion is, let's be honest, very divided on. There are other 4-letter words that could be used in its place that would justify your reaction, but as it stands I see nothing wrong with that post at all. Any time people do mention the issues they have with the 800s, they are treated with similar derision over the fact that it's the same discussion that's been had countless times before, so they can't win.

 

[trebor79]

I have to say that although there are things I dislike about the 800 interior, as an occassional user I prefer them over a GWR HST standard class coach.
A buffet, some more intelligently placed luggage racks and better seats would make it pretty perfect. Maybe tone down the lighting a bit too.

 

[Beemax]

As a regular user of GWR between London and Reading over the last year (about 50% HST and 50% class 800) I’d make the following comparisons


Pro HST

Softer seats, less clinical ambience, slightly better ride (possibly due to the extra suspension provided by the seats)


Pro 800

More leg room, more chance of getting a seat, better recovery of late running (meaning I’m more likely to meet a tight connection at Reading with an 800 than with an HST)

Also noticeable at Reading West the reduced dwell time of an 800, due to eliminating the need for station staff (if present) to walk up and down the whole length of the train to check if the doors are closed.

 

[reddragon]

He’s right though.

Three things:
- proper catering facilities for standard class
- better seats with more padding
- proper high quality seat covers, not flat cloth or GWR grey “AstroTurf”.

Really shouldn’t be too much to ask given the cost of travelling on them.

Having just been on a plane with 'airline' seats, how is it that they can have very comfortable seats despite the severe space / weight / fire issues and new trains cannot?

I was on a budget airline too, not some 1st class main carrier!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having just been on a plane with 'airline' seats, how is it that they can have very comfortable seats despite the severe space / weight / fire issues and new trains cannot?

I was on a budget airline too, not some 1st class main carrier!

Because they consider seats worth spending money on, rather than just picking the cheapest rubbish possible.

Part of this, though, will be because good seats will enhance resale values. The budget carrier business model is based on buying new planes and selling them on used. Trains don't get sold on used as such.

 

[43096]

Having just been on a plane with 'airline' seats, how is it that they can have very comfortable seats despite the severe space / weight / fire issues and new trains cannot?

I was on a budget airline too, not some 1st class main carrier!

Very good question, and a point I have wondered about. Bet my flight to Wien on Friday is more comfortable than an IEP.

 

[samuelmorris]

I've actually found a bit of a drop in comfort on airline seats at least in economy class, due to the use of leather/faux-leather rather than the cloth seats they used to use - that may also be due to fire regulations. Nonetheless I'd agree they're definitely more pleasant than most seats fitted to UK rolling stock and I imagine a lot of that is due to price. The point about resale value sounds very plausible too, but also because airlines are in competition with each other. If you use the train somewhere in the UK, in the majority of cases, you're stuck with one particular operator. Because of this, in the few rare cases TOCs are in competition, they compete on fare prices rather than experience. The airline industry is far more fiercely competitive and the onboard experience, at least to most carriers, is hugely important.
There's also the matter that nothing in the aviation industry is cheap, and there simply aren't the same sort of companies operating in the aviation sector as make bus and train seats.

 

[broadgage]

How about you actually state what else you think should have been done with the interiors instead?

Rather than treating us to nothing more than (completely unnecessary) foul language - how considerate of you to blank out the letter 'a' - makes all the difference.

A buffet car
More luggage space.
More seats at tables.
padded seats.
A working reservation system.

All facilities that used to be taken for granted on inter city trains, but that now seem to be optional.

 

[Master29]

I've posted this before but I'll repeat it here:

From BR's own figures, a 2+7 HST set would do:

0-100mph in 3 mins 15 secs
100-125mph in a further 4 mins

Or 0-125mph in 7 mins 15 secs overall. I believe the distance it takes to reach 125mph in a 2+7 HST is about 13-14 miles.

If it takes only just over 3 minutes to get to 100mph why would it take 4 more to gain only 25mph. There may be some physics here I don`t understand to be honest but that doesn`t sound right.