GWR Class 800

[Railperf]

So no numbers about defective sets then? I do rather like evidence to back up claims

Going by reliability figures published in Modern Railways - the 800;s were ion around 8'000 miles between technical incidents, 802's were around 11,000 miles. LNER's HST's were running at 19,000 miles, EMT's had dropped to 12,000 miles while GWR sets were languishing at around the 6,500 mile mark - but it is well know that ATP faults cause additional unreliability issues LNER and EMT don't have. The 2+4 Short GTI HST's on GWR seemed to be on a par at 8,000 miles but in the last issue had suffered a period of unreliability and had dropped to 1.5k miles.
So yes, based on those figures the 800's and 802's seem to be more reliable than the GWR HST's but still a league below LNER HST's.

 

[northernbelle]

Going by reliability figures published in Modern Railways - the 800;s were ion around 8'000 miles between technical incidents, 802's were around 11,000 miles. LNER's HST's were running at 19,000 miles, EMT's had dropped to 12,000 miles while GWR sets were languishing at around the 6,500 mile mark - but it is well know that ATP faults cause additional unreliability issues LNER and EMT don't have. The 2+4 Short GTI HST's on GWR seemed to be on a par at 8,000 miles but in the last issue had suffered a period of unreliability and had dropped to 1.5k miles.
So yes, based on those figures the 800's and 802's seem to be more reliable than the GWR HST's but still a league below LNER HST's.

Absolutely.

My original point was that the OP's habit of asserting a trend based on their limited info (i.e. a small number of first hand observations) doesn't really cut the mustard in terms of representing reality.

 

[Railperf]

Absolutely.

My original point was that the OP's habit of asserting a trend based on their limited info (i.e. a small number of first hand observations) doesn't really cut the mustard in terms of representing reality.

True, but i do believe the majority of posts regarding unreliability are true even if they only appear to be a handful of first hand observations. And these observations are proving to be confirmed in magazines such as Modern Railways and by some 'insiders'.

 

[northernbelle]

True, but i do believe the majority of posts regarding unreliability are true even if they only appear to be a handful of first hand observations. And these observations are proving to be confirmed in magazines such as Modern Railways and by some 'insiders'.

I'm not disputing there are issues - I'm disputing the idea that they're getting any worse than before, as suggested by fgwrich.

Reliability has actually improved since the first sets entered traffic - with a lot more improvement to do yet!

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't know if this is old news as I hadn't been there for a few months but there were detailed automated announcements about which coaches were First Class, standard class, disabled etc at Bristol Parkway. We were even told our short-formed 17.41 to Swansea was full and standing (though we all got a seat onwards to Wales).

 

[Railperf]

I'm not disputing there are issues - I'm disputing the idea that they're getting any worse than before, as suggested by fgwrich.

Reliability has actually improved since the first sets entered traffic - with a lot more improvement to do yet!

I must be lucky, as i haven't had a diesel only set turn up.
Sounds like the warmer weather may cause problems - especially if the radiators get clogged up with pollen again. Let's hope they are ready for that at the depots.
And then the new timetable from December looks likely to push the units with some harder running for longer. That has the potential to affect reliability.

 

[northernbelle]

It's quite interesting reading the NRPS Spring survey that was published today - independently provided by Transport Focus.

It shows a steady climb in passenger satisfaction with GWR, despite the picture painted by some on here - sitting in the upper middle part of the TOC league table.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...assenger-survey-nrps-spring-2019-main-report/

 

[aar0]

Are you certain about this ?
Any links to prices, and when available ?
No hot food on any trips that I have made. I thought that hot food had sunk without trace.

Everything you could get at an HST buffet you can get from an IET trolley. I've continued to enjoy a GWR bacon roll a few times when hungover!

 

[Starmill]

Are you certain about this ?
Any links to prices, and when available ?
No hot food on any trips that I have made. I thought that hot food had sunk without trace.

Mee too. There can't be many people who buy the food if nobody knows about it?

 

[Railperf]

It's quite interesting reading the NRPS Spring survey that was published today - independently provided by Transport Focus.

It shows a steady climb in passenger satisfaction with GWR, despite the picture painted by some on here - sitting in the upper middle part of the TOC league table.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...assenger-survey-nrps-spring-2019-main-report/

Reported by Rail magazine too....
https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1144189279402434560?s=20
Nobody is painting a worse picture of matters than they are. The general public probably don't note whether the train is running diesel or electric or how many engines are running. The current service is running pretty well. But as we have noted..there are issues to address that will become a bigger issue if they are not fixed before the new faster timetable comes in. How anybody can say the seats are more comfortable..i do not know. But people do like the the bright airy and clean interiors..even if the seats are firm. And that adds to peoples perception of comfort.
Reliability of the 800s is one fifth of that achieved by a Class 222. And half that of a Pendolino. And a third of an EMT HST. The figures do not lie!

 

[northernbelle]

Nobody is painting a worse picture of matters than they are.

That's where I think we disagree. The hysteria about things that customers just don't care about is notable - particularly on this forum. Some folk have chips on their shoulders and have absolutely nothing positive to contribute in any circumstance, which is a shame when a lot of good is happening despite some problems.

 

[Master29]

The seats shouldn't in principle be that much of an issue - they don't differ massively from Grammer E3000s, and I've spent three hours in those going down to Weymouth and three from Crewe to Bletchley via the wobble. The problem is the stupid metal bar on the original, thinner, fabric covered cushions, and that the back is a bit over-contoured for short people so they force tall peoples' shoulders forward.

Oh, and the manky drab grey interior with that nasty green stripe. The interior of the LNER Azuma, despite being otherwise identical, is so much more homely, much more like a Pendolino but with brighter lighting to suit those who find Pendolinos a bit dingy.

I agree the Azuma red looks much better in both standard and First.

 

[Master29]

It's quite interesting reading the NRPS Spring survey that was published today - independently provided by Transport Focus.

It shows a steady climb in passenger satisfaction with GWR, despite the picture painted by some on here - sitting in the upper middle part of the TOC league table.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...assenger-survey-nrps-spring-2019-main-report/

Generally quite good in comparison to some TOC`s but there are noticeable differences between spring and autumn last year for example with catering facilities, both on train and off. There is a large rise in the spring but nothing changes in the autumn which coincides with the introduction of the IET`s on the long distance southwest routes. Coincidence?

 

[northernbelle]

Generally quite good in comparison to some TOC`s but there are noticeable differences between spring and autumn last year for example with catering facilities, both on train and off. There is a large rise in the spring but nothing changes in the autumn which coincides with the introduction of the IET`s on the long distance southwest routes. Coincidence?

Where are you looking for 'catering facilities'?

The only one I can see refers to station catering which has risen 6% since Spring 18 or 4% since Autumm 18.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's quite interesting reading the NRPS Spring survey that was published today - independently provided by Transport Focus.

It shows a steady climb in passenger satisfaction with GWR, despite the picture painted by some on here - sitting in the upper middle part of the TOC league table.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...assenger-survey-nrps-spring-2019-main-report/

Looking at the overall results by route it's "West" that has shown the improvement, not "Long distance". Quite honestly, with a brand spanking new fleet of trains this route group should be soaring ahead in the scores, but it's not.

 

[Mag_seven]

More short forms today (5 vice 9 or 10) including these which being a Friday no doubt will be cosy!

https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/

12:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 17:09
Facilities on the 12:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 17:09.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.

16:33 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids due 19:35
Facilities on the 16:33 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids due 19:35.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

18:33 London Paddington to Plymouth due 22:11
Facilities on the 18:33 London Paddington to Plymouth due 22:11.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.

18:45 London Paddington to Swansea due 21:50
Facilities on the 18:45 London Paddington to Swansea due 21:50.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.

 

[broadgage]

Indeed.
It will be hard to convince the average passenger that "IETs are more reliable than GWR HSTs" with these numbers of short formations. I do not recall EVER seeing a half length HST on a long distance service.
And yes I know that HSTs failed and that some shorter routes then got Turbos instead. That however is no consolation to the Bristol or Cardiff passenger who used to get a full length train but now gets 5 car only all too often.

 

[samuelmorris]

That's where I think we disagree. The hysteria about things that customers just don't care about is notable - particularly on this forum. Some folk have chips on their shoulders and have absolutely nothing positive to contribute in any circumstance, which is a shame when a lot of good is happening despite some problems.

I agree to an extent, but the reverse also happens - there are plenty of cases of undeniably unacceptable performance which are shrugged off as 'that's how it works on the railway'. While I accept there are practical limitations for every problem, finding a suitable excuse for everything that's bad about the rail industry rather than suggesting how it might be put right is part of the reason public transport is where it is right now. Forum users aren't going to have much sway in the matter, but if everybody takes the same attitude, nothing gets done. This is why I'm all for the campaigning that goes on when people don't receive a good enough service. It has to be communicated when the rail industry lets down its users.

Also beware of using statistics to assess the general beliefs of the population. If I never used to get a seat on a train and now I do because there are more seats, but the seats are ****, I'm still likely to give an increase in my score on a prefabricated survey for 'seating comfort'. It doesn't mean I think the seating is comfortable, it just means I prefer a Fainsa Sophia to sitting on the floor. Likewise, if punctuality / reliability improved from 'very poor' to 'poor' that 10-15% improvement in satisfaction does not mean "job well done lads, let's quit while we're ahead".

The UK's railways are not third world. We don't have to sit on the roof, we don't have dedicated staff to push us in so we all fit, rolling stock is generally of an acceptable standard and so is the service pattern, with a few possible exceptions in the North of England. What gets people's backs up is that it could have been so much better. The government routinely doesn't invest in railways and for GWR, they finally have, the IEP cost an absolute fortune, and what we got for their money just could have been so much better.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Today is indeed a bad day for availability - 5 x "5 Vice" diagrams at start of day - a potential total of 22 services affected today.

Too many 9 car sets (of both classes) stopped.

 

[irish_rail]

I believe (thankfully) an extra 5 car was added to the 1203 padd to Penzance by caping a Bedwyn, no great loss , but it did then depart 15 late as a result of waiting for the additional coaches. The scene would have been apocalyptic if this service had remained as a 5 car today!
Yet another example where the problem would not of existed had it been a predominantly 9 car fleet.

And the idea that satisfaction is good on the padd to Penzance route is laughable it is way down . Any improvement in customer satisfaction will be among the commuter element and those who's 153 has been replaced by a 2 +4 HST.....

 

[Master29]

Indeed.
It will be hard to convince the average passenger that "IETs are more reliable than GWR HSTs" with these numbers of short formations. I do not recall EVER seeing a half length HST on a long distance service.
And yes I know that HSTs failed and that some shorter routes then got Turbos instead. That however is no consolation to the Bristol or Cardiff passenger who used to get a full length train but now gets 5 car only all too often.[/QUOT

Possibly true but surely, you would expect that on a brand new train compared to a 40+ year old one so hardly a worthwhile comparison.

I believe (thankfully) an extra 5 car was added to the 1203 padd to Penzance by caping a Bedwyn, no great loss , but it did then depart 15 late as a result of waiting for the additional coaches. The scene would have been apocalyptic if this service had remained as a 5 car today!
Yet another example where the problem would not of existed had it been a predominantly 9 car fleet.

And the idea that satisfaction is good on the padd to Penzance route is laughable it is way down . Any improvement in customer satisfaction will be among the commuter element and those who's 153 has been replaced by a 2 +4 HST.....

….We still have the July and August period to begin in earnest yet. TripAdvisor looks pretty ugly at the moment concerning GWR and the IET.

Where are you looking for 'catering facilities'?

The only one I can see refers to station catering which has risen 6% since Spring 18 or 4% since Autumm 18.

You are correct. Sorry. I missed the station heading at the top. Onboard catering isn`t mentioned.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I believe (thankfully) an extra 5 car was added to the 1203 padd to Penzance by caping a Bedwyn, no great loss , but it did then depart 15 late as a result of waiting for the additional coaches. The scene would have been apocalyptic if this service had remained as a 5 car today!
Yet another example where the problem would not of existed had it been a predominantly 9 car fleet.

Not quite. With the distribution of equivalent units on depot, as at start of play today, there would have been several cancellations. Diagrams would have been left completely uncovered.

 

[irish_rail]

Not quite. With the distribution of equivalent units on depot, as at start of play today, there would have been several cancellations. Diagrams would have been left completely uncovered.

But am I right in thinking some of those units are only not available for service due to coupling issues for example the "incident" at Paddington this week robbing us of two sets, so it could be argued those sets would not have been out of use in the first place were they 9 cars and thus not required to couple....

 

[rftorf]

Also operating in diesel mode west of Didcot at the moment. I'm on one with no seat reservations in place and not very cold aircon.

 

[Mintona]

Also operating in diesel mode west of Didcot at the moment. I'm on one with no seat reservations in place and not very cold aircon.

I imagine that’s a train rather than infrastructure issue. 1G38 definitely went down on electric about 2 hours ago.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But am I right in thinking some of those units are only not available for service due to coupling issues for example the "incident" at Paddington this week robbing us of two sets, so it could be argued those sets would not have been out of use in the first place were they 9 cars and thus not required to couple....

No - none out for couplers (or damage as a result of "that" shunt - they have been sorted). The units stopped are out for other faults as well as the usual amount for routine exams.

A lot of DO restricted or GU out units in traffic today as well - the worst combined total in a couple of months. Busy time for Hitachi.

 

[JN114]

Also operating in diesel mode west of Didcot at the moment. I'm on one with no seat reservations in place and not very cold aircon.

I imagine that’s a train rather than infrastructure issue. 1G38 definitely went down on electric about 2 hours ago.

I said it the other day - ALL IETs depart Didcot westbound on Diesel (or pass through having already changed over) - and with no significant acceleration events after the changeover west of Steventon its not easy to tell from a passenger perspective if the train has changed over until Swindon. The GUs will run on low power for a short while after a moving changeover to wind down properly.

Similarly changeovers are still usually done East of Bristol Parkway, so observation there doesn’t always give a true picture.

State on departure from Paddington, Reading or Swindon will give a much truer indication of traction mode in use for the set(s).

 

[samuelmorris]

No - none out for couplers (or damage as a result of "that" shunt - they have been sorted). The units stopped are out for other faults as well as the usual amount for routine exams.

A lot of DO restricted or GU out units in traffic today as well - the worst combined total in a couple of months. Busy time for Hitachi.

Is there a common fault that leads to these faults that needs addressing? I find it hard to believe, with the age of these units and the mileage they're covering, that much should be failing this often at all unless there is a defect that needs to be addressed.

 

[rftorf]

I said it the other day - ALL IETs depart Didcot westbound on Diesel (or pass through having already changed over) - and with no significant acceleration events after the changeover west of Steventon its not easy to tell from a passenger perspective if the train has changed over until Swindon. The GUs will run on low power for a short while after a moving changeover to wind down properly.

Similarly changeovers are still usually done East of Bristol Parkway, so observation there doesn’t always give a true picture.

State on departure from Paddington, Reading or Swindon will give a much truer indication of traction mode in use for the set(s).

It sounded to be electric from Paddington and Reading, switched to diesel at Didcot and stayed that way for the rest of the journey. There did seem a number of units passing with their pantographs down this afternoon.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Is there a common fault that leads to these faults that needs addressing? I find it hard to believe, with the age of these units and the mileage they're covering, that much should be failing this often at all unless there is a defect that needs to be addressed.

There are several common faults, which I can’t get into on here. Hitachi have their hands full at the moment but are on it.