GWR Class 800

[jimm]

If people want to talk about trains seats in general and which is 'better' than that one - please use one of the umpteen threads already in existence on the forum to talk about them.

The only thing all these threads ever seem to prove is that everyone has their own personal preferences about what seat design they find comfortable... which isn't exactly headline news when humans come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

 

[reddragon]

Have any new units gone into service as it seems there is now full utilisation of what was delivered?
800.001-2 testing
800.003-4 training
800.005-6/8-23 in service?

 

[BRX]

Did my first 800 trip yesterday. Would describe it as underwhelming.

For all sorts of reasons it just doesn't really feel like a long-distance train. The seats; the missing buffet; the coupled-together units which you can't walk between; the general standard of finish.

To me it feels less comfortable than a Pendolino or a (Southern) Electrostar, either of which I think I might prefer to spend a long journey on.

The lighting is way too bright. At least it's not the terrible blue-tinged lighting they put in the HST refurbs.

The rapid acceleration/deceleration are impressive, but almost start to become a comfort issue. It felt to me that changes in speed (either up or down) were not very smooth, almost as if the motor were stepping through gears, creating a somewhat lurching impression.

 

[DylanThomas]

As initially put, your point was completely obscured.

I suspect it would be overkill to have two wheelchair areas. 180s had three wheelchair spaces, two in standard and one in first. I never saw more than one space in use on the same train in the entire time they were in use by FGW/GWR. 'Entourage'? Presumably a whole one person. Or are devious people stealing wheelchairs, pretending to be disabled and then bringing the entire family along for bargain trip in first?

If the DfT hadn't insisted on putting a super-dooper space-eating kitchen in all the five-car sets something else could have happened, but that's a moot point now. Once the nine-car sets start running, a lot of services will have wheelchair spaces in standard, so this 'issue' will not be one on all those services anyway.

Unless someone has placed a buggy directly across the doors into the coach - which is a probably an offence under some bylaw or other and a safety hazard in any case - I fail to see how that prevents a trolley getting through.



Not sure the person in question illustrates anything, other than wanting to stand in a vestibule between Oxford and Hanborough all the time, if he is, as I strongly suspect, the person who posted this at the GW Passengers' Forum



http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18792.300

His (and others') choice to stand - I assume in the past he would have posted himself in the area around the disabled toilet in coach E on a Class 180, as the rest of the vestibules on those trains and on Mk3s are much the same size as an 800. How dare the Hitachi designers try to maximise seating capacity...

He could always stand in another one - probably all of his very own - back down the train and walk up approaching Hanborough. Some of us manage to walk up a train at other stations with short platforms and if you are doing a regular commute you can hardly claim to be unfamiliar with the journey time (eight minutes OXF-HND)/where you are on the route. In any case, the platform at Hanborough will be lengthened to seven-car length along with others on the Cotswold Line later this year, so he will soon be spoiled for choice of vestibules, whether on a five-car or a nine-car set.

Jimm, rather than ask why (as someone who works the IET train daily) I hold these opinions, you choose to make assumptions and speak to me in a superior manner. It's a bit weird and unecessary. It's like I made a personal attack on you, rather than discussing my personal experience of a train.

 

[DylanThomas]

Why is a free upgrade for wheelchair passengers (who don't get a seat as such anyway other than the one they bring with them) and a couple of people travelling with them a bad idea? It would seem a pragmatic option that might actually please everyone?

On leisure travel it's on average a group of about four. I don't mind at all upgrading them and I do. However, in three cases so far, the entourage have upset other first class passengers sensibilities so the carriage takes a bit more managing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On leisure travel it's on average a group of about four. I don't mind at all upgrading them and I do. However, in three cases so far, the entourage have upset other first class passengers sensibilities so the carriage takes a bit more managing.

Upset in what way, out of interest? Behaviour? Bad behaviour isn't acceptable in either class.

 

[DylanThomas]

Upset in what way, out of interest? Behaviour? Bad behaviour isn't acceptable in either class.

I've had complaints about noise, swearing, eating smelly fast food and unfortunately the class of person. People in First are obviously much more likely to complain...paying for the ambience and all that.

I did also have a complaint when a first class couple realised the entourage had not paid for first class tickets (overheard the entourage talking)

 

[absolutelymilk]

The rapid acceleration/deceleration are impressive, but almost start to become a comfort issue. It felt to me that changes in speed (either up or down) were not very smooth, almost as if the motor were stepping through gears, creating a somewhat lurching impression.

Presumably this was on electric? Was it different on diesel power?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had complaints about noise, swearing, eating smelly fast food

Not really acceptable in any class, though it does go on

and unfortunately the class of person

Conventionally, the class of person allowed in 1st is whoever pays for a 1st ticket Almost enough to make me dress up as scruffily as possible and pay for a First Class ticket for a journey myself

 

[broadgage]

On leisure travel it's on average a group of about four. I don't mind at all upgrading them and I do. However, in three cases so far, the entourage have upset other first class passengers sensibilities so the carriage takes a bit more managing.

First class provision was downgraded to about 35 seats on the new units, so a wheelchair user and entourage have taken up a not negligible about 10% of the first class space.
I also fear that a free upgrade to first class by wheelchair users and entourage may soon become the expectation, and then become an entitlement.
When the full length trains come into use it will interesting to see how many wheelchair users use the standard class wheelchair space, and how many prefer/expect/demand the first class upgrade that they get on the half trains.

 

[BRX]

Presumably this was on electric? Was it different on diesel power?

Yes on electric.
I didn't get to experience it on diesel as I joined at Didcot where they switched over.

 

[jimm]

Jimm, rather than ask why (as someone who works the IET train daily) I hold these opinions, you choose to make assumptions and speak to me in a superior manner. It's a bit weird and unecessary. It's like I made a personal attack on you, rather than discussing my personal experience of a train.

Really? The first thing you posted about wheelchair spaces/toilets was this:

On the five car sets wheelchair passengers only have a space in first class. There is no space in standard, yet standard also has a disabled toilet. Go figure!?!

So I tried to 'go figure' - or was the question not meant to be answered?

But it now appears, on the basis of your response to Bletchleyite's posts, that it was about something else entirely. Wheelchair users and their entourages have presumably been placed in first class on GWR HSTs on occasions when coach C is missing for a good few years, so it's not as if it happening on an 800 is something new.

We can all write lists of things that tick us off about particular trains, whether we are rail staff or passengers - there are things that annoyed me about HSTs in the late 1970s that still hack me off now, and changes made to the trains since then - but if you are going to put the list up on a public forum, people might just comment.

First class provision was downgraded to about 35 seats on the new units, so a wheelchair user and entourage have taken up a not negligible about 10% of the first class space.
I also fear that a free upgrade to first class by wheelchair users and entourage may soon become the expectation, and then become an entitlement.
When the full length trains come into use it will interesting to see how many wheelchair users use the standard class wheelchair space, and how many prefer/expect/demand the first class upgrade that they get on the half trains.

Why will it become the expectation? In the nine-car sets there are two wheelchair spaces in standard, so that is where wheelchair passengers with standard class tickets will be put, unless they want to pay for first class - same as anyone else.

Not forgetting that with the fares system as it is now, a person with a standard class ticket could perfectly well end up paying more than someone with first printed on their ticket if they booked far enough ahead, judging by the cost of some of the first advances currently available online in GWR's 'sale'.

 

[DylanThomas]

Really? The first thing you posted about wheelchair spaces/toilets was this:



So I tried to 'go figure' - or was the question not meant to be answered?

But it now appears, on the basis of your response to Bletchleyite's posts, that it was about something else entirely. Wheelchair users and their entourages have presumably been placed in first class on GWR HSTs on occasions when coach C is missing for a good few years, so it's not as if it happening on an 800 is something new.

We can all write lists of things that tick us off about particular trains, whether we are rail staff or passengers - there are things that annoyed me about HSTs in the late 1970s that still hack me off now, and changes made to the trains since then - but if you are going to put the list up on a public forum, people might just comment.



Why will it become the expectation? In the nine-car sets there are two wheelchair spaces in standard, so that is where wheelchair passengers with standard class tickets will be put, unless they want to pay for first class - same as anyone else.

Not forgetting that with the fares system as it is now, a person with a standard class ticket could perfectly well end up paying more than someone with first printed on their ticket if they booked far enough ahead, judging by the cost of some of the first advances currently available online in GWR's 'sale'.

Comment is cool, but you are oddly aggressive, particularly in tone. It's not a conversation, you're trying to extert some kind of superiority/authority, so I'll pass on responding further.

 

[jimm]

Some IET action at the eastern end of the Cotswold Line yesterday, photographed by Martin Loader

http://hondawanderer.com/Recent_Additions.htm

 

[yorkie]

Regarding seating, a brief mention here is absolutely fine but if anyone wishes to discuss these in detail, it may be best to create a new thread for this. Seating can be a highly subjective matter and at times the discussion around seating can cause a thread to be swamped by such discussion, at the expense of other, perhaps more pertinent matters.

Also just a gentle reminder of our forum rules especially under the heading 'Respectful'. If anyone has any concerns, please alert us to it, by using the 'Report' button (bottom-left of each post).

 

[BestWestern]

As initially put, your point was completely obscured.

I suspect it would be overkill to have two wheelchair areas. 180s had three wheelchair spaces, two in standard and one in first. I never saw more than one space in use on the same train in the entire time they were in use by FGW/GWR. 'Entourage'? Presumably a whole one person. Or are devious people stealing wheelchairs, pretending to be disabled and then bringing the entire family along for bargain trip in first?

If the DfT hadn't insisted on putting a super-dooper space-eating kitchen in all the five-car sets something else could have happened, but that's a moot point now. Once the nine-car sets start running, a lot of services will have wheelchair spaces in standard, so this 'issue' will not be one on all those services anyway.

Whilst it may be rare to fill four wheelchair spaces on one train, what a standard class area does provide, frequently, is a place for pushchairs to travel, provided of course the area is not required by a wheelchair. This facility is supremely helpful, whilst having nowhere to carry buggies is an issue.

To clarify, the train was designed to have had whelchair spaces adjacent to each accessible toilet, both standard and First. It was subsequently decided (by the DfT I understand) to fit additional seats in the standard class spaces. The train is fitted with folding ramp brackets on the appropriate standard class door apertures, and the ramp itself remains on board. The decision to omit the space may well end up being reviewed in due course, we shall see.

 

[jimm]

Wheelchair spaces may come in handy for buggies, but that is not what they are there for at the end of the day. And we all know the kind of issues buggies in wheelchair spaces can lead to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38663322

Nor does it get away from the fact that plenty of people with disabilities do not use wheelchairs but find adapted toilets useful, so a disabled toilet with plenty of priority seats adjacent to it is a sensible arrangement.

The seating layout for coach A in five-car sets looks to have been fixed by 2012, two years before Hitachi started work on 800001. The adjustments to get in more seats have been made elsewhere, such as coach D - see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3469/iep-train-layouts.pdf

That ramp brackets and ramps are provided is probably simply a matter of standardising the build process for the driving coaches, which will all be the same in terms of the bodyshell and being fitted with a disabled toilet module. How the rest of the driving coach interiors are fitted out depends on what each one is used for and if you tot it up, I think a slight majority of the standard class driving coaches on the fleets of 800s and 801s ordered for GW and EC services under the IEP project will have wheelchair spaces, along with all the first class ones.

The ramps presumably still come in handy if someone of limited mobility, but who does not use a wheelchair, finds the step between train and platform difficult.

 

[superalbs]

Class 800s seem excessively bright, both in terms of lights, and in the passenger saloon. Hope the trolleys start selling sunglasses...!

 

[jimm]

Video of the five-car set working the morning GWR service from Carmarthen coupling to another set in the platform at Swansea before departure to London.

 

[Master29]

First class provision was downgraded to about 35 seats on the new units, so a wheelchair user and entourage have taken up a not negligible about 10% of the first class space.
I also fear that a free upgrade to first class by wheelchair users and entourage may soon become the expectation, and then become an entitlement.
When the full length trains come into use it will interesting to see how many wheelchair users use the standard class wheelchair space, and how many prefer/expect/demand the first class upgrade that they get on the half trains.

Precisely a point I made a while back. It will be inevitable some wheelchair users will use this as an entitlement and it probably won`t stop with wheelchair users. It is an utterly stupid design to not include wheelchair spaces in standard on the 5 car sets. Surely it`s gonna happen.

 

[jimm]

It's not an entitlement, it is an operational matter determined by the accommodation available on the five-car trains, affecting a limited number of passengers. In the case of nine-car 80x trains, there will be wheelchair spaces in standard, so that is where standard class ticketholders will be placed, unless they want to pay extra for first class.

How is it 'not going to stop with wheelchair users' when the point at issue is wheelchair spaces?

I expect a fair bit of work was done by the DfT, looking at the number of people actually travelling with wheelchairs or mobility scooters. There is probably a pretty substantial body of evidence available from Class 180 and Class 221 operations since 2002 and assisted travel requests and it was decided that one space per five-car set would be sufficient in most circumstances.

Eight extra seats in coach A on the five-car sets will see a lot more use than wheelchair spaces ever would, including from disabled people who do not use wheelchairs but will find an adjacent adapted toilet useful/vital.

 

[aleggatta]

out of curiosity, is the socket on each end next to the coupler a multiple working receptacle or an auxiliary supply?

 

[dp21]

out of curiosity, is the socket on each end next to the coupler a multiple working receptacle or an auxiliary supply?

From my understanding of other stock and similar couplers, these are for auxiliary supply. The multiple working cables all go through the electrical head of the autocoupler.

 

[Plasmanoodle]

As a wheelchair user, I feel incredibly uncomfortable being placed in first class and would much prefer to be back in standard. Unfortunately I don't have a choice where to sit and often feel like I'm being judged for being in first without a first class ticket. It's people and their 'entourage' who behave inappropriately that don't make the situation any better and make me and other people in my position feel awkward for being there, as well. I'm eagerly awaiting the nine car sets to make it into passenger service later this year for that reason.

 

[6Z09]

Chris Grayling says these trains have been "Unmuzzled" ! Anyone notice any impressive acceleration when not in electric mode?
"the mode of traction does not affect the passenger experience"

 

[Railperf]

Chris Grayling says these trains have been "Unmuzzled" ! Anyone notice any impressive acceleration when not in electric mode?
"the mode of traction does not affect the passenger experience"

There has been no discernible increase in performance from what we have recorded so far. it is said that 940hp is being used to achieve the 0.7 m/s/s acceleration rate to around 30 -40 mph where the limited constant power curve kicks in and therefore you start to see a significant drop in acceleration compared to in electric mode. As has been noted before, the 800's have a greater initial kick which helps to exit station platforms and therefore reduces platform reoccupation time, but above 40ish mph, they are slower to accelerate than an HST. The acceleration in electric mode is impressive - but in diesel mode it certainly is not. The current timetable is not exactly too taxing and has plenty of padding built -in. So time losses seem to average around a few minutes in each direction between London and Cardiff/ Bristol.

 

[Typhoon_93]

Video of 800035 on the test track at Aycliffe from my friends YouTube channel, anyone is welcome to subscribe as he posts videos daily from around the factory and test track.

 

[Dampfmann]

Greetings!!
Yesterday - 24-01-18 - this train was comprised of two GWR livered 800 units.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97197/2018/01/24/advanced.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97198/2018/01/24/advanced
I saw it passing my house at Wrenthorpe on the Leeds side of Wakefield Westgate.
There was an STP in on Tuesday for a similar run but was late off Doncaster and only
shown as running to Leeds and not the second STP leg to Kings Cross.
I have not seen an 800 on the Leeds line previously. Were these trains the first?
Does anyone know the reason for the runs - Crew training; timing or route clearance?
If the latter it wasn't hanging about!

 

[bonzawe]

Greetings!!
Yesterday - 24-01-18 - this train was comprised of two GWR livered 800 units.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97197/2018/01/24/advanced.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97198/2018/01/24/advanced
I saw it passing my house at Wrenthorpe on the Leeds side of Wakefield Westgate.
There was an STP in on Tuesday for a similar run but was late off Doncaster and only
shown as running to Leeds and not the second STP leg to Kings Cross.
I have not seen an 800 on the Leeds line previously. Were these trains the first?
Does anyone know the reason for the runs - Crew training; timing or route clearance?
If the latter it wasn't hanging about!

Return to KX appears to have gone via Hertford

 

[DenmarkRail]

Just wondering, given that HSTs never had to couple / uncouple in service, how much dwell time is the 800 (5 car) coupling, adding into service? Would this outweigh the time savings that GWR stated?