GWR Class 800

[jimm]

Why did daft specify buffets for the East coast ones which are predominantly doing journeys of less than 3 hours (bar the Scottish services) and yet didn't specify a buffet on the 802s which will ply the Paddington to Cornwall route where most journeys are over 3 hours??!! Double standards I guess and being afraid of the negative reaction in the northern and Scottish constituencies, negative reaction down here seems to matter less.....

The buffets, presumably actually 'shops' in Virgin-speak, on the East Coast sets are because the dynamic thrusting private-sector franchise bidder was allowed to have them - as opposed to the GWR direct award operation, which was told what it was getting by the DfT.

GWR isn't even allowed to have 'quiet carriage' stickers on the windows in Coach A in the Class 800s, with a notice on the bulkhead at the cab end of the seating area being the only indication that they are a quiet coach. As a result, they often aren't any such thing.

In Short LNER is a Profit Centre, GWR is a Cost Centre. Therefore East Coast gets the nice things.

Exeter is ~2 hours, Plymouth 3, only Penzance is over 4 hours. Edinburgh is minimum 4 hours from London and has business travel and competition from airlines.

Are you seriously suggesting that having a buffet on a train is going to influence someone's choice of whether to take a train or plane between Edinburgh or Newcastle and London?

As for nice things, GWR Pullman dining on West Country services is quite a nice thing, is open to passengers in both first and standard class and will continue to be available on IETs.

Have to agree here. When Crosscountry pulled the 'shop' from the voyagers to provide bike space they basically asked two questions - At seat service & bike storage or continue as is, they was no explicit mention that the shop would go. And low and behold, some of those trains are so rammed the trolley never makes it through.

As opposed to giving up any attempt/not even bothering trying to get to the shop, because the train was so rammed it was impossible to get through. XC trains are often rammed, end of story.

 

[broadgage]

No you are not in a minority (elsewhere), this forum just seems to be in support of the trains. I am split 50/50. I like the buffet and the “comfort” of the HST, but the train itself is not exactly perfect. If they built more as 9 coaches, added a buffet and maybe softened the seats, worked the reservations and didn’t mess up the cascade then sure, they would be my faveroute Intercity train.

I agree, although I am not keen on DMUs for long distance travel, this is not DIRECTLY due to the location of the power source.
DMUs IME generally involve a significant downgrade of facilities and comfort.
Most DMUs are shorter than the loco hauled stock or HSTs that they replace.
Most DMUs have no buffet.
Most DMUs feature largely unidirectional seating with only limited table seats.

If the new IETs were to be made into "proper inter city trains" Then even cynics like me would probably forget about the underfloor engines.

Lengthen all the 9 car sets and some of the 5 car ones into 10 car, by the addition of a proper full size hot buffet car. With a decent sized servery in the middle of the vehicle and longitudinal seating at each end. Plenty of small tables and grab rails. About 40 or 45 seats.
Remove 4 seats from most of the standard class vehicles so as to provide more tables and more luggage space between the seat backs. This loss of about 24 seats would be more than offset by the extra seats in the new buffet car.
Replace most of the seats with better padded ones. And yes I know that some people like the present seats, so keep some of these.
An IET thus modified with a proper hot buffet, more facing seats at tables, and more luggage space would no longer "feel DMU like" despite still having exactly the same underfloor engines.

I would place the new buffet car in the middle of the standard section so that no standard class passenger has to walk too far to use it.
Whilst that makes it a long walk from first class, I would consider it primarily a standard class facility. First class would receive a full table service, with the first class customer host fetching whatever is desired from the existing galley in the first class driving vehicle. This would include a good selection of drinks and hot and cold snacks. The first class customer host could if need be fetch items from the buffet, but this would not be the norm due to the distances involved.
Full Pullman restaurant to be provided on selected trains. I would not make any fundamental changes to first class, but would consider minor improvement to make it look and feel "more first class like"

IME, many passengers actually PREFER to stand if in convivial company and enjoying a drink, just as many customers stand in a public house despite the availability of seats.
In the evening rush hour in particular, I suspect that the buffet car would contain several dozen passengers standing THROUGH CHOICE, and thereby in effect adding capacity.
The buffet car should therefore be designed so as to facilitate safe and comfortable standing with plenty of grab rails, and small tables.

 

[bnm]

As for nice things, GWR Pullman dining on West Country services is quite a nice thing, is open to passengers in both first and standard class and will continue to be available on IETs.

And according to the crews, reduced to a maximum of 15 covers and only available to 1st Class customers.

Although rumours abound of a wider 1st Class food offering as part of GWR's future plans should they win the next franchise. This may be showcased before the franchise competition.

 

[D1009]

And according to the crews, reduced to a maximum of 15 covers and only available to 1st Class customers.

Is that what is happening on the South Wales route? I could have sworn last time I was on the 1045 Padd to Swansea, brunch was available to all who wanted it.

 

[jimm]

I agree, although I am not keen on DMUs for long distance travel, this is not DIRECTLY due to the location of the power source.
DMUs IME generally involve a significant downgrade of facilities and comfort.
Most DMUs are shorter than the loco hauled stock or HSTs that they replace.
Most DMUs have no buffet.
Most DMUs feature largely unidirectional seating with only limited table seats.

If the new IETs were to be made into "proper inter city trains" Then even cynics like me would probably forget about the underfloor engines.

Lengthen all the 9 car sets and some of the 5 car ones into 10 car, by the addition of a proper full size hot buffet car. With a decent sized servery in the middle of the vehicle and longitudinal seating at each end. Plenty of small tables and grab rails. About 40 or 45 seats.
Remove 4 seats from most of the standard class vehicles so as to provide more tables and more luggage space between the seat backs. This loss of about 24 seats would be more than offset by the extra seats in the new buffet car.
Replace most of the seats with better padded ones. And yes I know that some people like the present seats, so keep some of these.
An IET thus modified with a proper hot buffet, more facing seats at tables, and more luggage space would no longer "feel DMU like" despite still having exactly the same underfloor engines.

I would place the new buffet car in the middle of the standard section so that no standard class passenger has to walk too far to use it.
Whilst that makes it a long walk from first class, I would consider it primarily a standard class facility. First class would receive a full table service, with the first class customer host fetching whatever is desired from the existing galley in the first class driving vehicle. This would include a good selection of drinks and hot and cold snacks. The first class customer host could if need be fetch items from the buffet, but this would not be the norm due to the distances involved.
Full Pullman restaurant to be provided on selected trains. I would not make any fundamental changes to first class, but would consider minor improvement to make it look and feel "more first class like"

IME, many passengers actually PREFER to stand if in convivial company and enjoying a drink, just as many customers stand in a public house despite the availability of seats.
In the evening rush hour in particular, I suspect that the buffet car would contain several dozen passengers standing THROUGH CHOICE, and thereby in effect adding capacity.
The buffet car should therefore be designed so as to facilitate safe and comfortable standing with plenty of grab rails, and small tables.

Meanwhile, back in the real world of the 21st century...

 

[jimm]

And according to the crews, reduced to a maximum of 15 covers and only available to 1st Class customers.

Although rumours abound of a wider 1st Class food offering as part of GWR's future plans should they win the next franchise. This may be showcased before the franchise competition.

Is that what is happening on the South Wales route? I could have sworn last time I was on the 1045 Padd to Swansea, brunch was available to all who wanted it.

If Pullman service was confined to first class passengers only on some of the lunchtime services, it probably wouldn't even be worth the chef turning on an oven.

 

[physics34]

For those of us who have been following the thread from the start, continued and prolonged discussion of the seats has become very tedious. The subject has been done to death many times over.

this is its a CONTINUING issue, and may never go away until improvements are made

 

[cb00]

For those of us who have been following the thread from the start, continued and prolonged discussion of the seats has become very tedious. The subject has been done to death many times over.

Which demonstrates how GWR/DfT got it wrong and continue to do so by not rectifying (or even accepting) their error.

 

[PHILIPE]

Which demonstrates how GWR/DfT got it wrong and continue to do so by not rectifying (or even accepting) their error.

The DFT specified this and will never accept it was their error.

 

[JN114]

The DFT specified this and will never accept it was their error.

And they’ve been extremely reluctant to allow GWR to make the changes they’ve made thus far - (seat covers, external vinyls). I’m sure all new interior will go down splendidly....

 

[Master29]

In Short LNER is a Profit Centre, GWR is a Cost Centre. Therefore East Coast gets the nice things.

Exeter is ~2 hours, Plymouth 3, only Penzance is over 4 hours. Edinburgh is minimum 4 hours from London and has business travel and competition from airlines.

Not true as most stations after Plymouth are over 4 hours barring the Cornish Riviera, Royal Duchy and Golden Hind and these take over 4 hours after Par.

 

[Class83]

Are you seriously suggesting that having a buffet on a train is going to influence someone's choice of whether to take a train or plane between Edinburgh or Newcastle and London?

Broadly speaking yes, unless you are heading from within 10 minutes of Waverley to withing 10 minutes of King's Cross, the train is slower than an airline. Therefore it must compete by offering a better work environment, catering and less hassle than an aircraft. A buffet is part of that offer.

 

[cb00]

The DFT specified this and will never accept it was their error.

Meanwhile customers on Twitter will continue to use #GWRNewTrains (much to GWR's irritation) to vent about the negative aspects of the IETs. GWR will continue to treat these customers as isolated incidents instead of accepting that they have a problem.

 

[jimm]

Broadly speaking yes, unless you are heading from within 10 minutes of Waverley to withing 10 minutes of King's Cross, the train is slower than an airline. Therefore it must compete by offering a better work environment, catering and less hassle than an aircraft. A buffet is part of that offer.

I said nothing about journey time or the work environment. I simply questioned the mystical pulling power that some people ascribe to the railway buffet car. The average passenger probably couldn't care less by what means they can obtain a tea or coffee or a bite to eat, so long as it is available somehow.

The idea that anyone is going to sit there and say 'there's a buffet car on the train, I must travel that way' is laughable.

 

[Charlie M.]

I agree, although I am not keen on DMUs for long distance travel, this is not DIRECTLY due to the location of the power source.
DMUs IME generally involve a significant downgrade of facilities and comfort.
Most DMUs are shorter than the loco hauled stock or HSTs that they replace.
Most DMUs have no buffet.
Most DMUs feature largely unidirectional seating with only limited table seats.

If the new IETs were to be made into "proper inter city trains" Then even cynics like me would probably forget about the underfloor engines.

Lengthen all the 9 car sets and some of the 5 car ones into 10 car, by the addition of a proper full size hot buffet car. With a decent sized servery in the middle of the vehicle and longitudinal seating at each end. Plenty of small tables and grab rails. About 40 or 45 seats.
Remove 4 seats from most of the standard class vehicles so as to provide more tables and more luggage space between the seat backs. This loss of about 24 seats would be more than offset by the extra seats in the new buffet car.
Replace most of the seats with better padded ones. And yes I know that some people like the present seats, so keep some of these.
An IET thus modified with a proper hot buffet, more facing seats at tables, and more luggage space would no longer "feel DMU like" despite still having exactly the same underfloor engines.

I would place the new buffet car in the middle of the standard section so that no standard class passenger has to walk too far to use it.
Whilst that makes it a long walk from first class, I would consider it primarily a standard class facility. First class would receive a full table service, with the first class customer host fetching whatever is desired from the existing galley in the first class driving vehicle. This would include a good selection of drinks and hot and cold snacks. The first class customer host could if need be fetch items from the buffet, but this would not be the norm due to the distances involved.
Full Pullman restaurant to be provided on selected trains. I would not make any fundamental changes to first class, but would consider minor improvement to make it look and feel "more first class like"

IME, many passengers actually PREFER to stand if in convivial company and enjoying a drink, just as many customers stand in a public house despite the availability of seats.
In the evening rush hour in particular, I suspect that the buffet car would contain several dozen passengers standing THROUGH CHOICE, and thereby in effect adding capacity.
The buffet car should therefore be designed so as to facilitate safe and comfortable standing with plenty of grab rails, and small tables.

Sounds like a great idea. Next franchise they better improve the food offering, and possibly hire more customer hosts to fulfill such offering, and a more “value for money” first class service. I would love to see the lengthening of the trains, and I would expect that many people would.

I think Great Western needs to move on from First, they have been alright but the managment isn’t exactly fantastic and their attitude to customer feedback isn’t too great.

 

[D1009]

this is its a CONTINUING issue, and may never go away until improvements are made

Except that the people who continually post the same stuff on here in no way reflect the views of the travelling public in general.

 

[Bikeman78]

GWR say that the condition of the seats and the Buffet matter were following research. This couldn't have involved the people who have to use the facilities. Research questions are often loaded in favour of whatever answer is required by those initiating it.

Personally I'd rather have a cup of tea when I want it as opposed to when someone else decides to bring it to me. Also having a three year old daughter, a walk to the buffet car is a good way to burn off some energy!

 

[FGW_DID]

Personally I'd rather have a cup of tea when I want it as opposed to when someone else decides to bring it to me. Also having a three year old daughter, a walk to the buffet car is a good way to burn off some energy!

Go for a walk and find the trolley then

Nothing in the rules that says you have to stay in your seat and wait for them to come to you!

 

[tbtc]

did research include sitting in the seat for 4 hours, i doubt it. I think it is probably arse covering. No big tests were done on the seats.

In fairness, that's the minimum standard I'd expect for a seat. If it weren't large enough to cover my pert posterior then there really would be complaints...

I agree, although I am not keen on DMUs for long distance travel, this is not DIRECTLY due to the location of the power source.
DMUs IME generally involve a significant downgrade of facilities and comfort.
Most DMUs are shorter than the loco hauled stock or HSTs that they replace.
Most DMUs have no buffet.
Most DMUs feature largely unidirectional seating with only limited table seats.

Lengthen all the 9 car sets and some of the 5 car ones into 10 car, by the addition of a proper full size hot buffet car. With a decent sized servery in the middle of the vehicle and longitudinal seating at each end. Plenty of small tables and grab rails. About 40 or 45 seats.
Remove 4 seats from most of the standard class vehicles so as to provide more tables and more luggage space between the seat backs. This loss of about 24 seats would be more than offset by the extra seats in the new buffet car.
Replace most of the seats with better padded ones. And yes I know that some people like the present seats, so keep some of these.
An IET thus modified with a proper hot buffet, more facing seats at tables, and more luggage space would no longer "feel DMU like" despite still having exactly the same underfloor engines.

I would place the new buffet car in the middle of the standard section so that no standard class passenger has to walk too far to use it.
Whilst that makes it a long walk from first class, I would consider it primarily a standard class facility. First class would receive a full table service, with the first class customer host fetching whatever is desired from the existing galley in the first class driving vehicle. This would include a good selection of drinks and hot and cold snacks. The first class customer host could if need be fetch items from the buffet, but this would not be the norm due to the distances involved.
Full Pullman restaurant to be provided on selected trains. I would not make any fundamental changes to first class, but would consider minor improvement to make it look and feel "more first class like"

You point out that conversion from Loco Hauled (or HST) to DMU generally involves fewer seats, but then it also generally involves a frequency increase and often a clock face timetable (to replace the random one that went before) - it's easy to cherry pick the bits you want to suit your argument though.

I'm not sure why you are unhappy with "unidirectional" seating - it's a long time since the days of trams that allowed you to flip the wooden seats to suit the direction of travel.

And much as I like the "why can't everything just be 260m long" idea (other than the cost, the delays in getting more trains into service, the complete waste of resources throwing trains that long at Hereford etc on a regular basis, the removal of flexibility to split trains en route and other minor things like that), this enthusiast obsession with restaurant service/ full three course meals/ all the trimmings/ paying for sufficient staff to provide a full table service - especially as most of the 800/801/802s are focussed on the London - Reading - Oxford/ Bristol corridor, where people won't have time to eat much.

Maybe there's an argument for that on the Cornish fleet of 802s, but then people on here treat Cornwall as some kind of 1950s holiday resort that requires trains with all of the 1950s facilities - the world has moved on.

The DFT specified this and will never accept it was their error.

The vast vast majority of problems on the GWML (from the cost of the IEP contract to the fiddly details specified on the trains themselves to the vastly over budget/ vastly delayed/ half-finished electrification) are all due to the Public Sector... and nationalisation never seems to have been more popular than it is now - despite most problems on the railways being the fault of one branch of the public sector or another (DfT/ Network Rail/ Chris Grayling/ ORR). Astounding, the cognitive dissonance required to think that giving these people control over the remaining bits of the railway currently in the hands of the private sector would make things better.

 

[AU75]

Hello
Thank you for much interesting information.

I watched these youtube videos on the first day of Cornwall IET service.
Penzance

Camborne

I noticed that I can't hear the engine sound of the 802007 center car.

Exeter St Davids

In This Video, I hear that all engines are alive.
I don't know the reason. But it seems that this train was not the best performance in several sections.

Another poor aspect - the four air conditioning vents are located near the ends of each carriage, meaning that the 12 or so passengers at each end can expect to spend the journey in discomfort owing to the direct flow of chilly air.

Those are not air outlets but return air intakes. An conditioned air duct is above the center aisle (except under the pantograph) and probably the air blows from indirect lights.

 

[_toommm_]

Had my first ride on the 800s today, courtesy of 800033 on the 15:51 Swansea to Bristol Parkway. The seat position itself isn't too bad and they're quite comfortable, the only issue is the headrest is rock hard and extremely uncomfortable.

The plugs between the seats are Nice, it means no awkwardness of cables being strewn across from the wall to the aisle passenger. They're quite quiet to say they're on diesel, but I was in the quiet coach. Is it true there's no engine underneath the quiet coach?

Teething problems with the coupling though, as a result, we left Swansea 21 down. Overall, fairly nice trains, a couple of minor quality control issues with the skirting near the edges. 7/10 overall.

 

[Bikeman78]

Go for a walk and find the trolley then

Nothing in the rules that says you have to stay in your seat and wait for them to come to you!

Funny you should mention that. The trolleys don't have the paper bags so they won't serve people hot drinks. Easy enough to circumvent, sit in a free seat near the trolley, then move after they've gone!

 

[Mag_seven]

Is it true there's no engine underneath the quiet coach?

If the "quiet" coach is one of the end vehicles then yes.

 

[_toommm_]

If the "quiet" coach is one of the end vehicles then yes.

Wondered why it was so quiet! Front coach so will have had no engine .

 

[Fearless]

Meanwhile customers on Twitter will continue to use #GWRNewTrains (much to GWR's irritation) to vent about the negative aspects of the IETs. GWR will continue to treat these customers as isolated incidents instead of accepting that they have a problem.

Has GWR looked at TripAdvisor lately? Under the heading "GWR's new trains", we have the following breakdown of comments:

Excellent: 79
Very good: 50
Average: 37
Poor: 63
Terrible: 229

 

[JN114]

Has GWR looked at TripAdvisor lately? Under the heading "GWR's new trains", we have the following breakdown of comments:

Excellent: 79
Very good: 50
Average: 37
Poor: 63
Terrible: 229

458 reviews isn’t a great sample size over 10 months of operation when 1000s of passengers per day use them; plus reviews aren’t particularly independent- people are far, far more likely to voluntarily complain than give positive feedback. It also doesn’t suggest whether or not any of those reviews are multiple reviews from the same person.

 

[jimm]

Has GWR looked at TripAdvisor lately? Under the heading "GWR's new trains", we have the following breakdown of comments:

Excellent: 79
Very good: 50
Average: 37
Poor: 63
Terrible: 229

Maybe you should look more closely at things before citing them as 'evidence' of anything.

I'm guessing this thread is the one you mean, as you didn't actually bother to give a link to it.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowU...Great_Western_Railway_GWR-London_England.html

Even a cursory glance at the rest of that page would show that the 'review' is just one post in the middle of a thread whingeing about anything and everything to do with GWR, with the odd mention of the IETs along the way, including some from people with the temerity to describe the seats as comfortable. There's even a review of a journey on the GWSR from Broadway to Cheltenham...

Not forgetting, of course, that people who want to have a moan about something are far more likely to head to TripAdvisor than those who got on their train, were transported from A to B without any problems and have better things to do with their time than post something saying GWR did its job. TripAdvisor is in no way a representative sample of public opinion on anything.

 

[broadgage]

The hard seats and the absence of a buffet car are frequent causes of complaint on trip advisor. It is not just me who thinks that so-called intercity trains should have a buffet, and padded seats.
Overcrowding on the new shorter trains is also mentioned.
And yes I know that advocates of the new units will say that short formations are much better than no train. However before the introduction of new shorter trains, I do not recall a daily dozen long distance cancellations being the norm.
Whereas now, two dozen short formations are a the "new normal"

 

[jimm]

The hard seats and the absence of a buffet car are frequent causes of complaint on trip advisor. It is not just me who thinks that so-called intercity trains should have a buffet, and padded seats.
Overcrowding on the new shorter trains is also mentioned.
And yes I know that advocates of the new units will say that short formations are much better than no train. However before the introduction of new shorter trains, I do not recall a daily dozen long distance cancellations being the norm.
Whereas now, two dozen short formations are a the "new normal"

Either have the courtesy to pay attention to what other people post, both here and on the GW Passengers' Forum, in response to what you post, or stop posting the same stuff over and over, as if that somehow makes it true.

You have been told often enough that the reason you did not see many long-distance cancellations in the past was because of HSTs being pulled off Oxford and Cotswold workings, with those being covered by a 180 or Turbo instead, if they could be rustled up from somewhere, often resulting in short-formed services in the Thames Valley, or they just got cancelled.

Equally, you have also been told over and over that GWR is still waiting for several of the five-car Class 800s (currently three sets to come) , six months after all 36 were meant to be available for traffic, making turning out a full complement of 2x5 formations a daily challenge.

 

[JN114]

The hard seats and the absence of a buffet car are frequent causes of complaint on trip advisor. It is not just me who thinks that so-called intercity trains should have a buffet, and padded seats.
Overcrowding on the new shorter trains is also mentioned.
And yes I know that advocates of the new units will say that short formations are much better than no train. However before the introduction of new shorter trains, I do not recall a daily dozen long distance cancellations being the norm.
Whereas now, two dozen short formations are a the "new normal"

As has been mentioned before - when there weren’t HSTs available Oxfords and Worcesters were routinely cancelled or covered with a 2/3 car Turbo vice HST. Now that that’s not an option (with few Turbos in Paddington in the evening peak) Bristols and Swanseas have to suffer instead.