GWR Dec 19 timetable

[irish_rail]

That capacity created by more services won't last long, Look at Virgin XC, who went for smaller units, and increased service, it only last 5 years before it went belly up.

Trains are always going to be busy, but it seems this country is going about it the wrong way and not learning from how things where done in the past.

Yep, one of the big problems with the little trains used on the south west route is it doesn't allow for the extra passengers carried at busy times, ie Fridays, Christmas etc. Apparently we only get additional 9 car trains in July and August , but unfortunately that is a very simplistic way of looking at capacity in the southwest and an outdated one.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If GWR commercial only ask for the 12th unit on odd days and in July and August, then they are asking for bother. Their historic loadings figures, even adjusted for the effect of the new service pattern, give a fairly good idea of which trains need to be strengthened and when. The 12th 9 car unit gives you the equivalent of 2 extra 5 cars in service between Plymouth and Penzance at any one time and it should be available between April and October and can be requested at other times. For example, in recent days it has been so requested although (primarily) misbalances with both fleets has led to short forms.

The point about going for 5 cars first is that they can be expanded to 9 cars as traffic levels rise to justify them. In the case of the South West, the need to justify the Cornish half hourly complicated the approval process for the 802 units.

 

[irish_rail]

If GWR commercial only ask for the 12th unit on odd days and in July and August, then they are asking for bother. Their historic loadings figures, even adjusted for the effect of the new service pattern, give a fairly good idea of which trains need to be strengthened and when. The 12th 9 car unit gives you the equivalent of 2 extra 5 cars in service between Plymouth and Penzance at any one time and it should be available between April and October and can be requested at other times. For example, in recent days it has been so requested although (primarily) misbalances with both fleets has led to short forms.

The point about going for 5 cars first is that they can be expanded to 9 cars as traffic levels rise to justify them. In the case of the South West, the need to justify the Cornish half hourly complicated the approval process for the 802 units.

Sadly many of the half hourly Cornish trains seems to only carry a handful of passengers whilst most people end up on the London train, primarily because most are travelling further afield than Plymouth. Whilst an admirable idea I do fear Cornish half hourly has done alot to downgrade Cornwalls intercity service to London.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That’s not a surprise. It can take up to a full timetable period to get the changes in people’s mind, depending on the nature of the change and how staid people’s travel patterns have been over decades. Not everybody is aware of the changes, despite all the publicity, and old habits die hard.

This is why timetable changes can be controversial because you can alter someone’s long held travel times and stopping patterns. The industry having to do this just before Xmas isn’t ideal either.

Personally speaking, the Reading to Oxford corridor needs to be looked at further and some of the compromises there that allowed the entire timetable to work need revisiting. In Bristol, some of the altered through journeys across the city need to be looked at sooner rather than later, i.e. in May/December 2020 rather than further back in DA3.

 

[devonexpress]

The point about going for 5 cars first is that they can be expanded to 9 cars as traffic levels rise to justify them. In the case of the South West, the need to justify the Cornish half hourly complicated the approval process for the 802 units.

The problem with supposedly expanding them to 9 cars, is that it could take 10-15 years for that justification to be needed, by which time Hitachi may no longer be producing Class 800/802s or the cost of producing a few extra cars will be to expensive to justify. As has happened with the Voyager/Pendolino fleet.

Railways need to stop thinking short term, and worrying about future problems later, The IET programme is a clear example of lack of future planning.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The problem with supposedly expanding them to 9 cars, is that it could take 10-15 years for that justification to be needed, by which time Hitachi may no longer be producing Class 800/802s or the cost of producing a few extra cars will be to expensive to justify. As has happened with the Voyager/Pendolino fleet.

Railways need to stop thinking short term, and worrying about future problems later, The IET programme is a clear example of lack of future planning.

Railways can think however they want - however back in the real world there is a limited amount of money available.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with supposedly expanding them to 9 cars, is that it could take 10-15 years for that justification to be needed, by which time Hitachi may no longer be producing Class 800/802s or the cost of producing a few extra cars will be to expensive to justify. As has happened with the Voyager/Pendolino fleet.

Recent history suggests that extending the length of trains is managed by replacing stock rather than extending existing stock. Even with HSTs, it was the purchase of the Mark 4s on the East Coast which allowed the Great Western fleet to be expanded from 2+7 to 2+8 (although I acknowledge that some strengthening had already happened for a handful of sets).

It looks like the extension of the Voyager fleet is being handled by replacing part of the fleet with new trains on the West Coast which might (and might not) lead to Cross Country being able to expand their fleet - more units to make longer trains rather than building extra cars for the existing trains.

9-car to Cornwall, if it is ever justified and can be supported by siding space, doesn't need to mean extension of the 5-car 802s.

Interestingly, someone posted a picture on Facebook of units at Long Rock over the Christmas break - 802104, 007, 006, 112 & 008 - suggests to me that GWR did change the workings on Christmas Eve to reflect their expectations of increased loadings on some services and use some 9-car units where they were needed.

Railways need to stop thinking short term, and worrying about future problems later, The IET programme is a clear example of lack of future planning.

The books have to balance though. There isn't some 'magic money tree' that means you can just spend whatever you want on train fleets. I would assume that you need to prove the demand to justify the trains you procure and agree this with the DfT. That was explained in this posting by 'Clarence Yard' about 769s and should be obvious. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lly-for-northern.138660/page-142#post-4345826

 

[83G/84D]

There are long term ambitions to expand the depot at Long Rock with extra sidings installed to help address the capacity issues. Prior to the December timetable changes there were as many as 4 empty stock movements on the Cornish main line on a Friday night/ Saturday morning to position trains for the weekend.

 

[jimm]

That capacity created by more services won't last long, Look at Virgin XC, who went for smaller units, and increased service, it only last 5 years before it went belly up.

Trains are always going to be busy, but it seems this country is going about it the wrong way and not learning from how things where done in the past.

In most cases, the Virgin timetable changes of 2002-3 barely provided any additional capacity from day one. Indeed there were fewer seats per hour in some cases, as a result of replacing 47+7 formations seating 380 or a 2+7 HST seating more than 450 passengers running hourly, with two 200 to 220-seat Voyagers per hour.

On GWR, in places where a five-car IET has replaced a 166 or 180, there are now several dozen more seats available on every service they work and the London-Cheltenham service has gone hourly, which would never have happened if the only trains available were nine-cars (and fewer train sets available to GWR overall). And, despite what some would have us believe, a great many HST workings through Cornwall (and other places off-peak as well) were never in need of trains with getting on for 600 seats much of the time.

There are things that need to be ironed out with the new GWR timetable but we really do need to move beyond unfounded claims that these changes and the use of five-car trains are anything like Operation Princess - the very definition of a botched timetable change - and what has followed pretty much ever since on XC, as a result of bad decision-making at Virgin and the DfT in the late 1990s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Here are two nine car 802s stabled at Longrock today where, if you believe this forum, nine car 802s can't be stabled. There were three five car 802s in the other roads.

 

[JonathanH]

Here are two nine car 802s stabled at Longrock today where, if you believe this forum, nine car 802s can't be stabled. There were three five car 802s in the other roads.

The informed sources have never said that 9-car 802s can't be stabled at Long Rock. They have said that it is awkward - as it means the units have to go onto the depot in a specific order and the second 9-car blocks all other movements while it is there.

As indeed your post here acknowledges.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-400#post-4046997

It is pretty obvious from your helpful picture why more 9-cars can't be stabled there.

 

[Goldfish62]

The informed sources have never said that 9-car 802s can't be stabled at Long Rock. They have said that it is awkward - as it means the units have to go onto the depot in a specific order and the second 9-car blocks all other movements while it is there.

As indeed your post here acknowledges.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-400#post-4046997

Certain posts on here have stated that they can't be stabled there at all. I was just providing evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, it's not exactly unusual to have restrictions on the length of trains in some sidings, eg Staines where two of the five roads can only take eight coaches rather than ten.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The issue at Long Rock is more one of total capacity available, when you count all the 802s, 2+4 HSTs, Voyagers, Sprinters of various sizes and the Night Riviera spare coaches, plus one night rake on Saturday nights. The logistics of shunting all this around, getting it through the tanking, fuelling and maintenance functions and into final stabling positions is bad enough, without several overlength trains blocking up the works.

 

[Goldfish62]

I see that the 1015 from Penzance is nine cars again today. At least GWR appear to be catering for the usual post-Christmas heavy loadings from Cornwall.

 

[Rich McLean]

There's a few 5 vice 10s out due to the amount of 802s pending repairs after the amount of incidents they have been involved in.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I see that the 1015 from Penzance is nine cars again today. At least GWR appear to be catering for the usual post-Christmas heavy loadings from Cornwall.

Booked on a Saturday. The 0815 and 0915 are diagrammed 10-car sets throughout.

 

[Goldfish62]

Booked on a Saturday. The 0815 and 0915 are diagrammed 10-car sets throughout.

Thanks.

 

[II]

At the time of the GWR order for 769s in April 2018, it was reported that Reading-Oxford and Reading-Gatwick were the main places that they would be used.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr

Yes, I remember that GWR press statement, though IIRC plans subsequently changed. Perhaps they've changed again since, or will in the future mind you. Clarence Yard may be able to update as to the current situation? I'll be surprised if more than a handful are in service from May, though hopefully at least one will be!

 

[Clarence Yard]

You will be lucky to see any 769 in passenger service on GWR before summer 2020, at the earliest. North Downs is currently the first service for them though that might change, depending on how the route clearance goes.

 

[jimm]

There's a few 5 vice 10s out due to the amount of 802s pending repairs after the amount of incidents they have been involved in.

But as was posted elsewhere yesterday by, I believe, II, you shouldn't always take what's on JourneyCheck as the gospel truth

Allocations are all over the place today, as there's long formations (9-car units working 5-car diagrams) as well as the short ones.

Though I will (once again!) stress that you can't believe anything on JourneyCheck, the following showing as 5-cars:
10:57 Paddington to Plymouth - but is a 9-car 800
11:57 Paddington to Penzance - but is a 9-car 802
15:15 Plymouth to London Paddington - but is a 9-car 800
17:50 Penzance to London Paddington - but is a 9-car 802

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18719.1350

 

[OliverH68]

I've had a look through but can't find an answer for this question - does anyone know what is the purpose of the bi-hourly Newbury fast service calling at Reading only?
Currently on a Thames Rover and the few times I've been on it, it appears fairly quiet so not quite sure of the reasoning behind this service? I am aware the Newbury - London leg waits at Reading for nearly 10 minutes due to timings around Airport Junction.

 

[JonathanH]

I've had a look through but can't find an answer for this question - does anyone know what is the purpose of the bi-hourly Newbury fast service calling at Reading only?
Currently on a Thames Rover and the few times I've been on it, it appears fairly quiet so not quite sure of the reasoning behind this service? I am aware the Newbury - London leg waits at Reading for nearly 10 minutes due to timings around Airport Junction.

It gives Newbury a half hourly fast service in conjunction with the Exeter semi-fast and the Bedwyn service - suspect the purpose is to even out the service and occupy the path so that GWR could introduce an hourly Exeter semi fast if needed, otherwise it would be an obvious path out of Paddington for another operator to claim.

 

[Kite159]

Is the 1907 London Paddington to Bedwyn on Saturdays meant to be a Turbo?

 

[cactustwirly]

Is the 1907 London Paddington to Bedwyn on Saturdays meant to be a Turbo?

No... Should be a 5 car 800, there are no booked Turbos out of Paddington now, except for the early/late Greenford services, AFAIK

 

[JonathanH]

No... Should be a 5 car 800, there are no booked Turbos out of Paddington now, except for the early/late Greenford services, AFAIK

Booked Turbo - it goes on to work shuttles on the Kennet route on Saturday evening.

Weekday
2P07 0354 Reading to London Paddington
2G02 0541 London Paddington to Greenford
-> Greenford shuttles
2G65 2155 Greenford to London Paddington
joins with
5D45 21+22 Maidenhead to London Paddington
1D46 2315 London Paddington to Oxford

1P47 2305 Oxford to London Paddington
1D48 0030 London Paddington to Oxford

Saturday
2P03 0413 Reading to London Paddington
2G02 0541 London Paddington to Greenford
-> Greenford shuttles
2G65 2150 Greenford to London Paddington
joins with
2P77 2130 Reading to London Paddington
1D45 2250 London Paddington to Oxford

1K03 0606 Bedwyn to London Paddington
5K03 07+37 London Paddington to West Ealing Emu Sidings
5K26 18+30 West Ealing Emu Sidings to London Paddington
1K26 1907 London Paddington to Bedwyn

Sunday
1P34 0955 Oxford to London Paddington
5P34 11+09 London Paddington to Reading Traincare Depot

1P71 1751 Oxford to London Paddington
1K86 1905 London Paddington to Bedwyn

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Is the 1907 London Paddington to Bedwyn on Saturdays meant to be a Turbo?

Yes it is. It works the 0605 Bedwyn-Paddington then runs ECS to West Ealing Carriage Sidings and stables all day, before returning for the 1907 Paddington-Bedwyn and spends the late evening on the Newbury-Bedwyn shuttle.

 

[Kite159]

Yes it is. It works the 0605 Bedwyn-Paddington then runs ECS to West Ealing Carriage Sidings and stables all day, before returning for the 1907 Paddington-Bedwyn and spends the late evening on the Newbury-Bedwyn shuttle.

One to remember for the future for some high speed 165 action. Connects nicely with a Bournemouth voyager at Reading.

 

[II]

A very good morning peak on the day of the 'great return to work'. GWR PPM currently at 92%.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

A very good morning peak on the day of the 'great return to work'. GWR PPM currently at 92%.

Don’t hold your breath for LTV!
1+2 OOU at Reading while S&T have a gander at the points at Westbury Line Jct...
HSS having slight issues due to late-running elsewhere, otherwise not too bad!

 

[OliverH68]

It gives Newbury a half hourly fast service in conjunction with the Exeter semi-fast and the Bedwyn service - suspect the purpose is to even out the service and occupy the path so that GWR could introduce an hourly Exeter semi fast if needed, otherwise it would be an obvious path out of Paddington for another operator to claim.

Many thanks!