GWR dispute regarding journeys between Totnes and Exmouth

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
Please help. I have been fined unfairly for travelling . I have been in disagreement with GWR prosecutions . They requested £106 from me which I deemed unfair . They have now decided to add £2000 to that because allegedly I have taken over 20 unpaid journeys in the last 3 years based on where I live. They used the word “allegedly” and “based on” in the emails . How could they prove this. Firstly it’s not true secondly I use really don’t understand

regards Reuben
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
573
Location
london
can we get a bit more info please, what journey? when? what ticket did you have? where were you challenged?

by the way you should assume GWR prosecutions are reading this, so dont post anything you dont want them to see
 
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
can we get a bit more info please, what journey? when? what ticket did you have? where were you challenged?

by the way you should assume GWR prosecutions are reading this, so dont post anything you dont want them to see
Hi. I was travelling from Totnes to Exmouth . The ticket office was not open, could not buy a ticket on the train and the Trainline app was not working . I was fined when I arrived at my destination. Anyway I tried to my case to avoid the £106 fine. They sent me this today
 
Last edited:

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,685
Please help. I have been fined unfairly for travelling . I have been in disagreement with GWR prosecutions . They requested £106 from me which I deemed unfair . They have now decided to add £2000 to that because allegedly I have taken over 20 unpaid journeys in the last 3 years based on where I live. They used the word “allegedly” and “based on” in the emails . How could they prove this. Firstly it’s not true secondly I use really don’t understand

regards Reuben
You always have the choice of going to court if you don’t agree with their settlement offer. If you do, you will likely be able to add a real fine on top of the claimed fares and costs, and get yourself a criminal record into the bargain (if found guilty). You should be aware that from what we see on this forum train companies don’t often ask for what they don’t feel they can prove, and GWR prefer not to go to court.
 
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
You always have the choice of going to court if you don’t agree with their settlement offer. If you do, you will likely be able to add a real fine on top of the claimed fares and costs, and get yourself a criminal record into the bargain (if found guilty). You should be aware that from what we see on this forum train companies don’t often ask for what they don’t feel they can prove, and GWR prefer not to go to court.
It’s not true though!
Why would they go from £106 to 2196 just because i challenged them. I felt the first fine was unfair. Now your telling me they’ve research my travel in the last 3 years and somehow worked out I have been avoiding train fares? How would they prove I’ve travelled over 20 times based on my Trainline app and my address . That’s ridiculous. Firstly it’s not true and secondly I don’t alway use the Trainline app . And rarely get trains

thanks for your reply !
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
573
Location
london
Why we have revised our offer

Having looked at where you live, and into your travel history between 18th January 2018 until 27th December 2020, it is alleged that you made “16 Single” journeys and “5 Return” journeys from Ivybridge without a valid ticket

This has resulted in you owing Great Western Railway £2108.72.

what 3 year travel history would GWR have to make these assertions? Ivybridge to where?
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
9,860
Location
Redcar
I think to try and work out what is going on we need to know exactly what happened in the first instance, in particular the £106 request. What do you mean by fined at the destination, bear in mind only a court can impose a fine. Was it perhaps an unpaid fare notice that you then ignored or challenged?
 

simonw

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
344
Are they perhaps accusing you of donughting? Of buying two tickets for a journey that do not cover the full journey but miss a section in the middle ? Could they have access to trainline records which support this belief in their part?
 
Last edited:
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
I think to try and work out what is going on we need to know exactly what happened in the first instance, in particular the £106 request. What do you mean by fined at the destination, bear in mind only a court can impose a fine. Was it perhaps an unpaid fare notice that you then ignored or challenged?
Hi. It was unpaid fair notice to be exact. Not to get into specifics but I wasn’t able to buy a train ticket and after I explained to a member of staff he took my details and there was a request for me to pay £106 in the post . I have appealed which was rejected and then have been talking to a woman from the prosecutions department . We have been emailing back and forth and I have been arguing that it was unfair and now she has sent me the email requesting £2200 . s
 
Last edited:
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
Are they perhaps accusing you of donughting? Or buying two tickets for a journey that do not cover the full journey but miss a section in the middle ? Could they have access to trainline records which support this belief in their part?
I don’t do that! But I regally buy tickets from machines and stations ( not just Trainline.) so how can I they tell me that they can prove this? Firstly it’s not true secondly what information do they have access too? If just Trainline then like I said. I often buy tickets at the station on even on the train.
Thanks for
You reply
 

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,158
Location
UK
Was there a reason you didn't use the ticket machines at Totnes?

Surely there is more to the letter/email that you have quoted? At the least, it would seem very strange for them not to list the journeys they allege you made without a ticket.

They cannot prosecute you for journeys you allegedly undertook without a ticket more than 6 months ago, as this is the 'statute of limitations' for summary-only (less serious) offences such as fare evasion. Bearing this in mind, they cannot really do much about such journeys. The only exception would be if they are alleging a more serious offence, such as fraud, which they have the right to take to the Crown Court.

That being said, they do not have any obligation to be fair in how they treat you here, so complaining about them increasing their proposed settlement isn't going to get you anywhere.

I would worry less about how they have come up with those dates of alleged evasion and more about whether or not the allegations are true. If you intend to defend this, it's probably best for you not to answer that question on the forum (you will be easily identifiable to GWR), but do keep it in mind.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
Have you ever purchased tickets in a mobile app, and then refunded them on several occasions?

For example, you might have purchased a return ticket via the app, used it to travel, but not activated it / had it scanned, and then refunded it later on?

All of those refunds would then be stored against your account.

I very much believe (as I mentioned in another thread) that TOCs are using the quiet period during COVID to redeploy their revenue protection teams to auditing / investigating historical claims and incidents, and utilising data in a smarter way.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
1,860
Could you take photos of all of the correspondence you’ve received - but with your personal details covered - and post them here?
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
12,102
Location
Airedale
No one can help you if you won't provide any information.

What happened when you were stopped?
That would be helpful info.
Have you ever purchased tickets in a mobile app, and then refunded them on several occasions?

For example, you might have purchased a return ticket via the app, used it to travel, but not activated it / had it scanned, and then refunded it later on?

All of those refunds would then be stored against your account.
Another possibility is that your history shows a lot of journeys from stations much closer to Exeter (that is, assuming that's your regular destination).
Don't answer either of these!
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,507
Location
Reading
Something doesn't add up in terms of the figure they are asking for and the cost of the number of journeys mentioned - you might ask for a breakdown of their calculation, and provide your own alternative schedule of any unpaid fares that you know you owe them and offer them an alternative settlement - including a component that covers their costs in dealing with you. Take that figure as one to be negotiated.

This is separate from the question of whether or not the original £106 was justified (for which you haven't given any information here). And separately again you might consider whether they have sufficient evidence to prosecute you for any offences related to any of this, or sufficient evidence to obtain the sum of money they are asking you now to pay through the civil courts (which have a lower standard of proof)
 
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
Was there a reason you didn't use the ticket machines at Totnes?

Surely there is more to the letter/email that you have quoted? At the least, it would seem very strange for them not to list the journeys they allege you made without a ticket.

They cannot prosecute you for journeys you allegedly undertook without a ticket more than 6 months ago, as this is the 'statute of limitations' for summary-only (less serious) offences such as fare evasion. Bearing this in mind, they cannot really do much about such journeys. The only exception would be if they are alleging a more serious offence, such as fraud, which they have the right to take to the Crown Court.

That being said, they do not have any obligation to be fair in how they treat you here, so complaining about them increasing their proposed settlement isn't going to get you anywhere.

I would worry less about how they have come up with those dates of alleged evasion and more about whether or not the allegations are true. If you intend to defend this, it's probably best for you not to answer that question on the forum (you will be easily identifiable to GWR), but do keep it in mind.
Would it be worth paying the the GBP 106 now, might doing that shut them up?
Not possible . It has been changed to 2196 otherwise I would off . Even though I feel I’m not in the wrong it’s not worth this hassle etc

Something doesn't add up in terms of the figure they are asking for and the cost of the number of journeys mentioned - you might ask for a breakdown of their calculation, and provide your own alternative schedule of any unpaid fares that you know you owe them and offer them an alternative settlement - including a component that covers their costs in dealing with you. Take that figure as one to be negotiated.

This is separate from the question of whether or not the original £106 was justified (for which you haven't given any information here). And separately again you might consider whether they have sufficient evidence to prosecute you for any offences related to any of this, or sufficient evidence to obtain the sum of money they are asking you now to pay through the civil courts (which have a lower standard of proof)
Yes I agree . Why that specific number? When they gave me the original payment they explained the calculations etc. This time they have said nothing .

Was there a reason you didn't use the ticket machines at Totnes?

Surely there is more to the letter/email that you have quoted? At the least, it would seem very strange for them not to list the journeys they allege you made without a ticket.

They cannot prosecute you for journeys you allegedly undertook without a ticket more than 6 months ago, as this is the 'statute of limitations' for summary-only (less serious) offences such as fare evasion. Bearing this in mind, they cannot really do much about such journeys. The only exception would be if they are alleging a more serious offence, such as fraud, which they have the right to take to the Crown Court.

That being said, they do not have any obligation to be fair in how they treat you here, so complaining about them increasing their proposed settlement isn't going to get you anywhere.

I would worry less about how they have come up with those dates of alleged evasion and more about whether or not the allegations are true. If you intend to defend this, it's probably best for you not to answer that question on the forum (you will be easily identifiable to GWR), but do keep it in mind.
If they can’t prosecute me for journeys I allegedly undertook over six months ago why are they saying what they are saying? Surely they should be getting in trouble with gwr if they are going against their own laws/rules?
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
1,409
Let's start with something that might be a side issue, but might be enough to make this demand for £2,198.72 go away.

If I have understood you correctly, this is in an email. Are you certain that it is from GWR? On the basis of cases we see here, when railways suggest a settlement they do it by a letter sent through the post. It's possible that things have changed so this email might be genuine, but please check the email address that this has been sent from. If this is someone either winding you up or trying to defraud you, then the way you need to deal with it will be rather different from what to do if this really is from GWR.


But for the rest of this posting, I'll assume that the email from GWR is genuine. And let's start by looking at what usually happens.

For some reason or another, GWR think that you dodged a train fare. That means that they are allowed to take you to court and prosecute you for not having paid the fare - and if they can persuade the court that you didn't pay the fare, then you will be found guilty and have to pay a fine, plus compensation (the fare in dispute) plus court costs plus (maybe) GWR's prosecution costs. But this is quite a lot of hassle for GWR, as well as for you, so what happens quite a lot of the time is that GWR will offer an 'out of court settlement'. That's what the request for £106 was. That was probably made up of something like £6 for the train fare, and £100 for the costs that GWR had incurred.

You haven't yet told us quite what happened when you deemed the £106 request to be unfair but it sounds as if GWR have now had another look at the information they hold and think that a higher figure might get you to talk to them. From what you've put on this discussion, I don't think that's worked properly: it's just made you rather cross.

So what happens next? If you don't manage to come to an agreement with GWR (and more about that later) then they will probably take you to court. By the sounds of things, you disagree with GWR that you failed to pay a fare, so at court you can challenge them to prove that you did what they claim you did. So if you haven't avoided fares on the dates that GWR say that you have, then you should be OK.

But I think there is still a chance to talk to GWR and come to an agreement. Before doing that, try and understand things from their point of view: in the original incident, did you pay the train fare or not? If you didn't, then it is quite likely that GWR have a point: the way the law is written, a passenger is meant to put in a lot of effort to pay the right fare. Broadly, if there was some reasonable way that you could have bought a ticket before the start of your journey (most obviously an open ticket office, but also maybe a ticket machine) then you should have done. And I think that if GWR gave you a chance to buy your ticket before you left the station at the end of your journey, then you should have taken that chance. If you had a chance and you missed it, then you may - in the eyes of the law - be in the wrong.

If you did have the right ticket, then you can be robust in your discussion with GWR: ask them to explain why they think you didn't have the right ticket, and (since you did have the right ticket) make it clear that you are prepared to argue the point in court and see GWR lose. But if you didn't have the right ticket then it might be that the £106 is the least you can get away with. Talk again to GWR: do so in writing (either a letter or an email) - and make sure that you are particularly polite and apologetic. I think that this might well work, in that I think that the point of the £2,198.72 demand is to frighten you and get you to come back and talk to them again.

At this stage, remember that until you come to a settlement with GWR (whether that's because they accept that they're wrong and walk away, or because you agree to pay them a settled amount) they have the right to take you to court. So you're not in a strong position. But I think it is still possible that you can sort this out without having to pay thousands of pounds.
 
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
Thanks a lot! I do understand what you mean I was just shocked as this figure of money. Plus they provided no evidence and claimed I have done something which I have not. I wish I did pay the original fee as this is not worth the hassle. But it doesn’t seamen right that they’d be allowed to make something up just to scare me?!

it does sound like a scam. But I’ve been on the gwr website , typed in my case number and the fee is there in black and white.

thanks
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
5,272
Location
Powys
Thanks a lot! I do understand what you mean I was just shocked as this figure of money. Plus they provided no evidence and claimed I have done something which I have not. I wish I did pay the original fee as this is not worth the hassle. But it doesn’t seamen right that they’d be allowed to make something up just to scare me?!

it does sound like a scam. But I’ve been on the gwr website , typed in my case number and the fee is there in black and white.

thanks

So let's go back to the start of this.
Why were you issued with a charge of £106 in the first place?
What exact stations were you travelling between?
What ticket did you hold at that time?
Exactly what did GWR issue you with at that time?

Once we know that information, which will form the basis of any advice, then members of this forum may be able to help with the rest of the matter, but at the moment we are flying blind.
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,685
it does sound like a scam. But I’ve been on the gwr website , typed in my case number and the fee is there in black and white
In which case, it’s not a scam. But without you giving us details of the alleged offence we’re not able to give you specific help.
 

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,500
Location
Sunny Scotland
May I suggest the OP reads this before wasting anymore of anyone's time?


Guidance for those asking for advice

Many members will try to assist you, but please bear in mind the following:

  • We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
    • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
    • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
    • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
    • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
    • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
  • Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
  • We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory
 

Bungle158

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2019
Messages
189
Location
Benaulim Goa
Please help. I have been fined unfairly for travelling . I have been in disagreement with GWR prosecutions . They requested £106 from me which I deemed unfair . They have now decided to add £2000 to that because allegedly I have taken over 20 unpaid journeys in the last 3 years based on where I live. They used the word “allegedly” and “based on” in the emails . How could they prove this. Firstly it’s not true secondly I use really don’t understand

regards Reub
If as you say, the allegations are untrue, then you have little to worry about. However, bear in mind that comprehensive logs and data are available to prosecution teams, from both railway sources and 3rd party apps.
 
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
Was there a reason you didn't use the ticket machines at Totnes?

Surely there is more to the letter/email that you have quoted? At the least, it would seem very strange for them not to list the journeys they allege you made without a ticket.

They cannot prosecute you for journeys you allegedly undertook without a ticket more than 6 months ago, as this is the 'statute of limitations' for summary-only (less serious) offences such as fare evasion. Bearing this in mind, they cannot really do much about such journeys. The only exception would be if they are alleging a more serious offence, such as fraud, which they have the right to take to the Crown Court.

That being said, they do not have any obligation to be fair in how they treat you here, so complaining about them increasing their proposed settlement isn't going to get you anywhere.

I would worry less about how they have come up with those dates of alleged evasion and more about whether or not the allegations are true. If you intend to defend this, it's probably best for you not to answer that question on the forum (you will be easily identifiable to GWR), but do keep it in mind.
Thanks for your very informative reply. Where can I find the laws that they say they can’t cannot prosecute you for journeys you allegedly undertook without a ticket more than 6 months ago? It would be good for me to do a bit of research before Monday .
Thanks
 
Joined
29 Jan 2021
Messages
16
Location
England
If as you say, the allegations are untrue, then you have little to worry about. However, bear in mind that comprehensive logs and data are available to prosecution teams, from both railway sources and 3rd party apps.
But If it’s not true why am earth would they make a statement like that? Seems immoral

thanks
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top