GwR HSTs to be stood down

[that1pepfan]

I was shocked when I heard this news, I in 3 years haven't seen one failed (usually getting on them from Bristol to Cardiff) and they are so much nicer than the 165/166 - 158s were nice but the castle sets are nicer, never had one fail on me, the one time I had a 166 on that route (had to take one from Portsmouth) it failed on me

Big shame because we are getting a downgrade on this service unless we get 158s

 

[XCTurbostar]

15. Using First Class Accommodation 15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

This clause is referring to advertised first class.. which if it wasn't advertised then it will be declassified. Simple really.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Big shame because we are getting a downgrade on this service unless we get 158s

Hugely subjective statement, and in many cases such as PIS quality, legroom, accessibility, internet access, plug sockets and reservations, statistically incorrect.

This clause is referring to advertised first class.. which if it wasn't advertised then it will be declassified. Simple really.

This happens to be the general consensus, but with there being the occasional few problem guards on the UK network who either don’t have a great knowledge of the CoT or like to make the rules up as they go along, I find it’s often better to ask the TM just in case. If they’re misinformed, you’re in a better position to argue it before you’ve sat down and travelled.

 

[IanXC]

This clause is referring to advertised first class.. which if it wasn't advertised then it will be declassified. Simple really.

Good luck with that, for instance the Penalty Fares Regulations make no such distinction...

Comparing to the previous wording which explicitly referred to whether First Class was shown in the timetable, this new wording is obviously intended to revise that position.

In any case we're in danger of veering way off topic with this - in the context of the thread I think its important the reader knows there is a potential issue here, but if anyone wishes to discuss it further a thread in Fares Advice and Policy would be the appropriate way forward.

 

[RPI]

I was shocked when I heard this news, I in 3 years haven't seen one failed (usually getting on them from Bristol to Cardiff) and they are so much nicer than the 165/166 - 158s were nice but the castle sets are nicer, never had one fail on me, the one time I had a 166 on that route (had to take one from Portsmouth) it failed on me

Big shame because we are getting a downgrade on this service unless we get 158s

The HST availability has been abysmal over the past 2 years, you probably hadn't seen one fail as there was a period where plenty weren't making it off the depot, I seem to remember at one particular point in the last 18 months there were something like 17 power cars stopped.

Though of late their availability has much improved..... just in time for them to be withdrawn.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hugely subjective statement, and in many cases such as PIS quality, legroom, accessibility, internet access, plug sockets and reservations, statistically incorrect.

I think there’s also a link to the demographics of the traveller here with whether something is an upgrade/downgrade which is why it’s so subjective.

Trying not to stereotype but to the younger generation tech things like reliable plug sockets and Wi-Fi are far more important as on train journeys they tend to rely massively on personal devices where as other generations may have differing views and HSTs more suited to their ‘preferred train’ view and these people usually manage to make a phone battery last all day etc.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think there’s also a link to the demographics of the traveller here with whether something is an upgrade/downgrade which is why it’s so subjective.

Trying not to stereotype but to the younger generation tech things like reliable plug sockets and Wi-Fi are far more important as on train journeys they tend to rely massively on personal devices where as other generations may have differing views and HSTs more suited to their ‘preferred train’ view and these people usually manage to make a phone battery last all day etc.

Something like seat comfort or whether or not one dislikes engines underneath them or not is subjective, whereas increases in legroom, amount of plug sockets, etc. are defined improvements.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Something like seat comfort or whether or not one dislikes engines underneath them or not is subjective, whereas increases in legroom, amount of plug sockets, etc. are defined improvements.

It’s all subjective really depending on what features are important to the traveller, you are obviously keen on plugs etc, not everyone uses a plug on a train so for you it’s a defined improvement. For someone else an underfloor engine brings additional noise compared to the quietness of a non powered vehicle so for them an engine underneath is a step backwards.

The HSTs and IETs are probably on a par in terms of ambience depending what the particular passenger is looking for in a train. For some like yourself it appears an IET is better for what you seek on a train for others it may be the HST but overall it is a similar standard.

Legroom is quite good in the airline seats on HSTs, don’t find there to be much difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s all subjective really depending on what features are important to the traveller, you are obviously keen on plugs etc, not everyone uses a plug on a train so for you it’s a defined improvement. For someone else an underfloor engine brings additional noise compared to the quietness of a non powered vehicle so for them an engine underneath is a step backwards.

The HSTs and IETs are probably on a par in terms of ambience depending what the particular passenger is looking for in a train. For some like yourself it appears an IET is better for what you seek on a train for others it may be the HST but overall it is a similar standard.

Legroom is quite good in the airline seats on HSTs, don’t find there to be much difference.

Personally I slightly prefer the IETs, despite my well known dislike of a certain manufacturer's seat. I've used them, and to me the HSTs are dated, noisy and in poor condition, despite having a very good design of seat.

On the other hand were the HSTs better kept I might see things differently - the Scottish ones are hugely different in quality, for instance.

But it is indeed probably fair to say that it is largely similar between the two (and similar to e.g. a 175 or any other end doored unit or LHCS, bar the whiney racket that you get in a Class 158) to the "layperson".

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s all subjective really depending on what features are important to the traveller, you are obviously keen on plugs etc, not everyone uses a plug on a train so for you it’s a defined improvement. For someone else an underfloor engine brings additional noise compared to the quietness of a non powered vehicle so for them an engine underneath is a step backwards.

The HSTs and IETs are probably on a par in terms of ambience depending what the particular passenger is looking for in a train. For some like yourself it appears an IET is better for what you seek on a train for others it may be the HST but overall it is a similar standard.

Legroom is quite good in the airline seats on HSTs, don’t find there to be much difference.

It's not that I'm keen on plugs, it's more that it's a fact that four plugs per table is an improvement on two plugs per table. It is not a fact that Grammar seats are more comfortable than Sophias, but a preference.

Moving on, this move will somewhat standardise the mainline (i.e. not EXM PGN Metro) Great Western Railway service between Taunton and Penzance, as aside from the odd 158, it'll be an IET regardless of whether it comes from London, Cardiff or starting in Devon.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's not that I'm keen on plugs, it's more that it's a fact that four plugs per table is an improvement on two plugs per table. It is not a fact that Grammar seats are more comfortable than Sophias, but a preference.

However it is also a fact that an underfloor engine vehicle is noisier than an unpowered vehicle.

Agree seats are subjective however.

From next May it should just be 1 x 158 diagram operating in Cornwall so as to retain traction knowledge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However it is also a fact that an underfloor engine vehicle is noisier than an unpowered vehicle.

Certainly 15x and 16x are noisy, and I particularly dislike the whine you get in 158s, after an hour or so it hurts my ears. But I find you can barely tell at all whether an 80x is on diesel or electric mode (the aircon is noiser than anything that moves it), while Mk3s can be a bit track-noisy in general (though these are a bit less bad due to the droplights being removed) and Mk2s and earlier make an almighty racket on braking, so I don't even think this is universal.

 

[Bikeman78]

Good luck with that, for instance the Penalty Fares Regulations make no such distinction...

Comparing to the previous wording which explicitly referred to whether First Class was shown in the timetable, this new wording is obviously intended to revise that position.

Where do you draw the line? All Southern 377s have first class which is labelled as such but the four car units turn up randomly anywhere. All the south London metro routes are standard only and doubtless very busy in the peaks. Are you seriously suggesting that people in the first class sections will get a penalty fare? Could get very messy.

 

[RPI]

Its funny, when the HST'S were refurbished in around 2007 with the current seats everyone hated them!

Moving on, most normal passengers seem to prefer the IET's and the HST's are becoming a bit unloved, during the cold snap the other week several of the HST's I worked had no heating in at least one vehicle and last summer in the heatwave I can't remember having a set with air conditioning working in every vehicle (not that 166's were any better).

 

[tricky18jan]

Where would be the best place to catch as many of the Castle HST’s in a day ?

Temple Meads or further South ?


Planning to head down Bristol way in February/March for a couple days.

Rich

 

[that1pepfan]

Where would be the best place to catch as many of the Castle HST’s in a day ?

Temple Meads or further South ?


Planning to head down Bristol way in February/March for a couple days.

Rich

Probably like Plymouth

 

[northernbelle]

Its funny, when the HST'S were refurbished in around 2007 with the current seats everyone hated them!

Moving on, most normal passengers seem to prefer the IET's and the HST's are becoming a bit unloved, during the cold snap the other week several of the HST's I worked had no heating in at least one vehicle and last summer in the heatwave I can't remember having a set with air conditioning working in every vehicle (not that 166's were any better).

It's fair to say that the interior layout of an IET is preferred by most - the HSTs being picked from the 'high density' sets in order to provide as many seats as possible on the cross-Bristol commuter area. I've worked several sets recently which are looking very tired - the corrosion in the power cars is getting very noticeable.

Not to mention they are simply not designed for the stop-start work they're being employed on.

 

[Richard Scott]

Not to mention they are simply not designed for the stop-start work they're being employed on.

Know it would have probably been far too expensive but if they'd been re-geared for 100mph, that would have helped.

 

[150249]

Where would be the best place to catch as many of the Castle HST’s in a day ?

Temple Meads or further South ?


Planning to head down Bristol way in February/March for a couple days.

Rich

I'd say between Truro and Exeter St David's

 

[43096]

Know it would have probably been far too expensive but if they'd been re-geared for 100mph, that would have helped.

In what way would it have helped? It's not like there's a performance issue with them. The problem has always been that they are expensive to run, particularly for fuel costs. This was known when they were converted: they were a less than ideal solution but were the only realistic choice. The ideal train for the duties they work is a 4-car Class 158.

 

[Bikeman78]

But it is indeed probably fair to say that it is largely similar between the two (and similar to e.g. a 175 or any other end doored unit or LHCS, bar the whiney racket that you get in a Class 158) to the "layperson".

It's funny how different people notice different things. Someone on this forum mentioned about the squeaky gangways on HSTs a few years ago. I'd genuinely never noticed it, despite many long journeys over 25 years, but after that I always noted it. I'd never really thought about the whining noise on 158s, but I can picture it now that you mention it. It's the Voith transmission. Loads of buses have/had it too. Just do a search for Voith gearbox on Youtube.

Not to mention they are simply not designed for the stop-start work they're being employed on.

Perhaps I've been lucky and always had enthusiastic drivers but, in my experience, they go like a rocket. No trouble getting up to 100 between most stations from Bristol to Taunton. You certainly wouldn't do that on a 150/158/166 which is what they replaced.

 

[Annetts key]

Not to mention they are simply not designed for the stop-start work they're being employed on.

Funny, part of the line they currently work, is the very same line that they worked when forming the London Paddington services. Although there is one extra station, some of these London Paddington services stopped at the very same stations that the current service stops at. So they have been used at least partly for “stop-start work” for many years before becoming known as Castle Class / Class 255 / 2+4 HST.

And being that the two power cars are now only hauling four coaches around, surely that’s less strain than stop-starting with seven coaches.

The engine and gearbox noise can be very annoying on the 150/158/16X units. And on some of them, they definitely struggle when pulling away. But this does not affect all of them.

I can’t say that I remember a HST ever struggling like this (even when only running on one power car).

 

[Richard Scott]

In what way would it have helped? It's not like there's a performance issue with them. The problem has always been that they are expensive to run, particularly for fuel costs. This was known when they were converted: they were a less than ideal solution but were the only realistic choice. The ideal train for the duties they work is a 4-car Class 158.

They would be quicker off the mark so could use less engine power for same effect reducing stress on engine and electrical components along with fuel saving.

 

[43096]

They would be quicker off the mark so could use less engine power for same effect reducing stress on engine and electrical components along with fuel saving.

You do realise that the duties they do now are over the same routes that they covered as part of their time as full 2+8 sets, with the same station stops?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You do realise that the duties they do now are over the same routes that they covered as part of their time as full 2+8 sets, with the same station stops?

Indeed arguably it is only a scatter gun of extra stops compared to what HSTs used to call at on a regular basis (Menheniot, Bedminster and Parson Street are the ones which spring to mind!)

 

[Richard Scott]

You do realise that the duties they do now are over the same routes that they covered as part of their time as full 2+8 sets, with the same station stops?

Yes thanks, I do. I'm quite aware of all of that. The points I made still stand and, yes, I do understand laws of physics etc. so my point on the referring would still stand. Again, I know it wasn't done and why.

 

[Annetts key]

If the electrification of the GWML had gone a lot smoother and had not gone vastly over budget, been cut short and had not taken as long as it did, then there may have been an extension to at least Taunton.

Then instead of 158, 16X and 2+4 HST, Taunton - Bristol - Cardiff Central services could have been EMU services.

But alas, it was not to be. Hence the requirement to fill the gap with the 2+4 HST.

As I’ve previously said, I find the 2+4 HST more comfortable than the IET. And for that reason, I will miss them. As I’ve said before, sitting on a concrete bench is more pleasant than sitting in an IET seat.

I actually prefer the current GWR HST seats compared to the original seats fitted to the HSTs.

 

[Ashley Hill]

It's fair to say that the interior layout of an IET is preferred by most -

What! Are you serious? Hard seats,no decent luggage space and poor cycle provision.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What! Are you serious? Hard seats,no decent luggage space and poor cycle provision.

To be fair (and I understand both sides of the argument), cycle provision by its nature affects a small percentage of the passengers (although is a nightmare for railway staff) and seating is very subjective, some prefer hard seats some prefer soft seats - if you have a traditional mk1 seat these days there’d be an equal split. IETs do have more seating bays for family groups but that’s just down to the configuration of the HSTs from their previous role.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What! Are you serious? Hard seats,no decent luggage space and poor cycle provision.

Legroom (or if you're short, the ability to put your trolley case by your knees) is a big selling point of the IET.